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-   -   Heartworm season - time to make a choice (https://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/yorkie-health-diet/274625-heartworm-season-time-make-choice.html)

Teegy 04-14-2014 07:05 AM

Heartworm season - time to make a choice
 
part 1 of the article

Protecting Your Dog From Heartworm | Dogs Naturally Magazine

Heartworm is a pretty hot topic when it comes to dogs. While many pet owners are ready to jump on the whole food and no/fewer vaccinations bandwagon, they quickly put on the brakes when it comes to packing it in on the heartworm meds. And why wouldn’t they – nobody wants their dog to die of a preventable disease. But if we’re talking about what’s preventable, let’s talk hard facts.
Before I begin, I’d like to share a comment that was left by a vet on our 5 Steps To Prevent Cancer post:
“As a veterinarian, I can tell you that you are absolutely incorrect in your statement that “healthy dogs aren’t good hosts for parasites.” Healthy dogs are GREAT hosts for many parasites including fleas, ticks, and heartworms. I would like to see a scientific journal backing your claim that homeopathic vets have seen “great success” in treating heartworms naturally. Do you have any sort of medical training? Are you a veterinarian? Do you have an advanced science degree? If not, I don’t think that you should be presenting highly misleading (and incorrect) information regarding something in which you have no training. The fact of the matter is that parasiticides DO often have toxic chemicals in them, but the safety margin is so high that only a small percentage of pets get ill. For me, I always balance risk vs. benefit. For example, although heartworm is found in all 50 states, it is MUCH more prevalent in the south. I would absolutely recommend that all healthy dogs in this area take heartworm prevention, because the chance of catching this deadly disease (and it is deadly) is extremely high.”
Well, I do actually have an advanced degree in physiology, so thanks for that! No, I’m not a vet, but forgive me because I’m going to share my two cents worth anyway – because somebody without any ties to people who are making money off heartworm medications has to stand up and tell the truth – and that’s exactly what I’m going to do.
What Are You Protecting Your Dog From?

Here’s my favorite question for dog owners: if you’re giving your dog monthly heartworm preventives, what are you protecting him from? Well, heartworm, right?
But I would like for somebody to answer this question that I seem to be the only one asking:
Why is the risk of heartworm disease unacceptable while the risk of death and illness from heartworm preventives is widely accepted?
Read that question again. Now tell me in the comments section why you think that is.
Here’s my thoughts: it’s because the drug manufacturers have told us those side effects and adverse events are OK. They’ve also scared us into thinking that heartworm, especially in the southern states, is a larger problem than it is. So we risk the adverse events in exchange for the protection given by heartworm meds. Because unprotected dogs get heartworm, right?
Well, not exactly.
What About The Wild Dogs?

Now, the vet who left her comment, like most conventional vets, has urged everybody in the southern states to use heartworm preventives because the risk is “extremely high.” If that were true, wouldn’t the wild dog populations be decimated? Because heartworm really seems to like dogs as a host, those wolves and coyotes must be really hard hit, right?
Well here’s something that’s interesting. Researchers have looked at the effect that heartworm has had on the wolf and wild dog populations. If we really want to know the real risk of heartworm disease, we should look at those animals who are exposed to mosquitoes 24/7 without any protection whatsoever.
Let’s first look at a study examining wolves in Wisconsin. They captured adult wolves and took some blood to see what diseases they were exposed to. From 19991 to 1996, only 2% of those captured wolves were found to have any trace of heartworm.
That’s a pretty small percentage.
Well, I guess you could argue that’s a northern state, where heartworm is less rampant. I’ll give you that, but suffice it to say that it might not be all that great an idea for people living in those areas to expose their dog to the risk of heartworm meds for such a slight chance of getting some heartworms.
Notice I said some heartworms, not heartworm infestation. There’s a difference but we’ll get to that later.
Now, some vets may argue that the risk of adverse events from heartworm “preventives” is pretty low – but there are already 700 dogs reported dead this year alone from just one product. Thousands of other dogs suffer from neurological complaints, cancer, hypothyroidism, blindness, skin disease and more from the use of heartworm products. And that’s because…
These Drugs Are Meant To Kill Things

Have you ever opened the safety data sheet from these seemingly harmless products? Open it up and here’s what you’ll find:
“In case of ingestion by humans, clients should be advised to contact a physician immediately. Physicians may contact a Poison Control Center for advice concerning cases of ingestion by humans.”
So wait a minute – it’s OK for a ten pound dog to take this, but if a 100 to 200 pound human takes it, we should call the Poison Control Center immediately?
See, this is where clever marketing and fear comes into play. You have this substance that, if ingested, is considered a poison and warrants a doctor’s appointment – immediately. But the manufacturers of this product scare the heck out of us – and our vets – with the threat of heartworm and somehow make us think that it’s a good idea to give our pets these drugs because the risk is worth the benefit.
But here’s the question we have to ask if we’re going to fairly evaluate whether we should use these poisonous products on our pets:
http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com...1d4404c944.gifHow Deadly Is Heartworm?

Now I know all you rescue people in the south are crying foul at the moment – I’ll get to you soon because I know you’re concerned about all those rescue dogs who are infected with heartworm.
So on one hand, we seem to have 700 dogs reportedly dead this year from one heartworm product alone. So what is the risk for those dogs who get heartworm? From the FDA website:
“Heartworms can kill a dog. More likely, though, heartworms will make dogs extremely sick. Dogs infected with heartworm can be successfully treated; however, such treatment may be inconvenient and emotionally stressful for the owner.”
So your dog, even if he’s carrying a heavy heartworm load, is unlikely to die. The treatment (at least the conventional treatment – for natural treatment options refer to the May 2013 issue of Dogs Naturally Magazine), is inconvenient and emotionally stressful for the owner. OK, got it. For me, that’s not a good enough reason to feed MY dogs that poison.
And the good news is that I don’t have to. Because my dogs have something in common with those wolves from the study: they aren’t taking heartworm preventives and they’re not getting heartworm.
But the conventional vets don’t understand this concept. They can’t see how this can happen. This is what they say:
“I can tell you that you are absolutely incorrect in your statement that “healthy dogs aren’t good hosts for parasites.” Healthy dogs are GREAT hosts for many parasites including fleas, ticks, and heart worms.”
Well, the nice vets at the Heartworm Society might disagree with you there. This might interest you:
“Single sex heartworm infections, host immune responses affecting the presence of circulating microfilariae and the administration of heartworm preventives can be factors which produce occult infections in dogs.”
An occult heartworm infection means that there is an infection of some sort but the microfilariae, or the heartworm offspring, aren’t found circulating around in the blood. So if all of the heartworms are of the same sex, or if the dog is taking preventives, then those little guys can’t reproduce and cause much of an issue.
While the vets and researchers may call this an occult infection, I might be inclined to call it a functioning immune system. Yes, that’s a novel concept for modern medicine.
Look at that quote again. If you go to the Heartworm Society, it’s easy to miss for all the talk about costly heartworm drugs. But there it is, nonetheless, shoved into a little corner and never mentioned again: Host immune responses affect the presence of circulating microfilariae.
In a nutshell, this means that dogs with functional immune systems aren’t good hosts for heartworms and other parasites. But the sad part is that few dogs these days have a strong immune system.

Teegy 04-14-2014 07:06 AM

part 2

Canaries In A Coal Mine

Do you know what a canary in a coal mine is? Early coal miners didn’t have anything in the way of ventilation systems, so legend has it that miners would bring a caged canary into new coal seams. Canaries are especially sensitive to methane and carbon monoxide, which made them ideal for detecting any dangerous gas build-ups. As long as the bird kept singing, the miners knew their air supply was safe. A dead canary signaled an immediate evacuation. The phrase “living like a canary in a coal mine” often refers to serving as a warning to others.
Our dogs are canaries in a coal mine – but we don’t see it. We keep filling them with toxic chemicals like heartworm meds and, as long as they keep singing, we think they’re fine. But they’re not – something insidious is happening inside, while the toxins build up and, over either the short or long term, eventually kill or harm our dogs.
And the evidence has been right under our nose all along – you see, it’s the constant exposure to those heartworm drugs – the ones that should send humans to their doctors immediately – that makes dogs get heartworm!
The Heartworm Society overlooks this fact, as do conventional vets, because they don’t understand what a healthy immune system – and hence a healthy dog – look like. As long as dogs are chronically exposed to heartworm poisons, flea and tick meds, processed foods, repeated vaccinations and drugs, they simply aren’t healthy – the immune system can’t possible keep up to that chemical onslaught.
So while the dog’s immune system is busy fighting off his last visit to the vet where he got flea and tick powder, vaccines, maybe some antibiotics, and even some nice, processed veterinary food, the microfilariae are free to take over because the defenses are taxed to the limit.
Is this just speculation? Maybe. But for those folks in the south, I’ve got something saved up that might give more credence to my thoughts.
What About The Southern States?

OK, here we are: the dreaded southern states! You probably noticed that the wolf study I mentioned was done in Wisconsin where the threat of heartworm is obviously lower than in the south. So what about the wolves who are living in the southern climate?
The Red Wolf was decimated and nearly extinct in 1980 but is being reintroduced throughout southeastern Texas, Florida and North Carolina – the states that are heartworm hotbeds.
The population has grown to 100 animals and they’re keeping very close tabs on them. Here’s something that’s interesting: most of the wolves are testing positive for heartworm – but the infestation hasn’t been shown to be a major source of mortality. (view the study here)
Now why do up to 45% of “unprotected” dogs living in the southern states suffer from heartworm while the wolves may have a couple of heartworms swimming around but rarely suffer from a life threatening infestation?
Why are our companion dogs so readily infected with heartworm?
Here’s an important thought from the late Dr Glen Dupree, a popular veterinary homeopath who resided in Louisiana and never treated or tested his dogs for heartworm:
“I operate under the assumption that all of my dogs have heartworms. But there’s a very big difference between having heartworms and heartworm disease.”
And that difference is a healthy immune system.
The constant flow of toxic chemicals gets in the way of good health. Common sense would tell you that it’s ridiculous to expose your dog to vaccines, neurotoxins, carcinogens and think that you’ve made him healthy.
How did giving poisonous products to healthy dogs to make them healthy become a viable treatment option? Where did it go so wrong?
I ask myself this question and when people say “I’ve put my dog on heartworm preventives,” I have to ask, “what exactly have you prevented?” And more importantly, “what is the cost?”
Why are we exposing 100% of our dogs to this poison when the reality of healthy dogs actually getting a heartworm infestation is about the same as those wolves who aren’t exposed to the same constant chemical onslaught?
We don’t know what a healthy dog is any longer. They are few and far between. But I assure you, they exist and they are living and thriving in the southern states without heartworm preventives.
So to answer the final question from that vet who challenged my thoughts: am I a vet? No, I’m not a vet. I’m just holding them accountable for the demise of healthy dogs.

107barney 04-14-2014 07:14 AM

My choice is to continue to give Heartgard every month of every year that my dogs are alive from puppyhood into their golden years until the day that they die.

lynzy420 04-14-2014 07:39 AM

One thing I'm going to add here that is beyond the actual statistics, theories and various schools of thought. I am certain that each year, month, week etc....there are many pups who die from heartworm, not like epidemic but many more than are recorded or reflected in the statistics.

Why? Because it is fact, that many many people don't take the time to have their CRITICALLY ILL pups tested and take the euthanasia route instead. Additionally, many pups become so sick and die and their brilliant owners don't take the time to have a necropsy done. Period.

How many folks know someone (rhetorically asking) who have had a pup that "had to be put down because of some unknown illness including pnuemonia (symptomatic of heartworm), heart failure (symptomatic of heartworm) liver failure (jaundice symptomatic of heartworm) etc...many times vets give an estimate of charges.....and well unlike me and many of you they aren't willing to pay out the big bucks....."??? I'm guessing a fair number of those are heartworm infected pups. Sad but true.

As far as I'm concerned, Heartworm prevention is a proven method, there will always be the exception, but I'd rather know that I did everything I could to prevent any suffering or disease in my pup, heartworm disease in pups is horrible....both the illness and the treatment....I'm not willing to gamble.

Bayer commends AHS and CAPC for updated heartworm guidelines - WLOX.com - The News for South Mississippi

megansmomma 04-14-2014 07:39 AM

When I see posts like this encouraging people not to use HW prevention it is very troubling. Our pets expect us to keep them well much the same as our children. So if you are going to chose not to use prevention, I guess you need to be prepared to stand by your decision if your dog does become infected with HW. Good luck with whatever you chose. Personally, I consider myself proactive and not reactive so I use prevention.

yorkietalkjilly 04-14-2014 07:47 AM

We live in Texas so I've always given monthly heartworm preventative to all my dogs for as long as I can recall. My ex-husband's dog had heartworm and the treatments and you never want to see a dog have to go through that - ever.

OwnedByJezebel 04-14-2014 07:57 AM

My friend rescued a boxer from an animal shelter. She was picked up as a stray and was heartworm positive -- at the young age of 10 months she was already infected. She is fine now but I never want to see mine go through what that pup did. I see mosquitoes here year round, and I simply cannot even consider doing nothing to try and prevent HW. Sentinel here, year-round.

Wylie's Mom 04-14-2014 08:45 AM

2 Attachment(s)
I think it's absolutely great to question the norm and the "way we do things". Otherwise, we'd never advance from anything to anywhere else. So hopefully this thread will muster up some good discussion.

To augment this discussion, I've attached some incidence maps from 2007 and 2010 below.

I'm in Arizona...you can see that our incidence is very low. Regardless, I choose to treat my kiddos rather than risk them getting heartworm. Ivermectin is a broad spectrum antiparasitic that I feel is much less toxic, monthly, than the risk/toxicity of getting the actual disease and the subsequent treatment w/ arsenic.

Here's a little story. About 5 years ago, we found a GORGEOUS female black lab stray in our neighborhood - beautiful temperament, trained, purebred. We tried to find her owners for weeks, to no avail. Some friends ended up adopting her. At their first comprehensive vet check, they found out she had heartworm...which is/was an utter shock given I can't imagine a dog contracting it here in our dry, non-mosquito DESERT where we live. But, she had it. What are the chances? SO SLIM to none. I cannot tell you how glad I was that I happened to be treating for the just-in-case heartworm disease. The lab, Ella, went through just horrendous treatments to get rid of it - it was treated w/ arsenic, which is typical. Some will say that the "slow kill" version of treatment is effective, but there is also evidence/thought that it is not. Either way, they elected to go the arsenic route as recommended by 2 different vets.

Personally, I don't ever want to risk my dogs having to go through treatment for heartworm disease.

Sure, every med has potential side effects, and every med on the planet will likely and unfortunately result in some very rare deaths. In terms of Ivermectin, any severe poisonings due to it seem to be related to a gene anomaly in that particular dog. For my dogs personally, I don't observe any side effects whatsoever. Can some effects be happening, but not observable? Sure. But again, the risk/benefit outweighs the risk of getting the disease for my dogs.

As far as the warning that if ingested by humans, a doc should be seen immediately: I need more information. It could be that on ANY dog/animal med, it's required to have that disclaimer (I don't know). It could be that, genetically, heartworm meds metabolize differently in humans than in dogs. So, unless I know more about that part -- it really means nothing to me presently.

I respect the choices of others to do what's best for their pets and who knows, maybe someday I'll be against heartworm meds bc of new information...but for now, I'm for the prevention of heartworm that these meds offer.

yorkiemom76 04-14-2014 08:53 AM

Working at a vet clinic, I've seen dogs euthanized because people couldn't afford the treatment for heartworm positive dogs. I've also seen what a dog has to go through for treatment. I'll take my chances with heartworm prevention. My dogs have been on it their whole lives with no problems and I know their is always a chance of a reaction but I'm not willing to risk it not giving it to them.

Lovetodream88 04-14-2014 09:52 AM

I think it's sad someone is going to read this and believe it and then there dog is the one who is going to have to suffer. Natural remedys and natural ways to do things have not been through the testing that actual medicine has and I would not be surprised if it not only had side effects and even long term effects that but ones that are far worse for your dog then actual medicines. I think it's a lot more dangerous to use things on our beloved pets that have not gone through testing and we don't know the effects it has on them then the stuff we do. It's kind of like making your dog a guinea pig. Everything can possibly cause death as a reaction heck my Grandmother is allergic to morphine so much so when they gave her some on the table she died and had to be brought back but that's not the normal for morphine. The two heart worm medicines that have been around a long time heartguard and interceptor/sentinel are not known to be ones that cause lots of deaths. Giving your dog heart worm medicine does not shorten there life or make then sickly or poision them as far as the research I have done this is just a myth " natural" vets are using to scare people into using there product which normal costs twice or three times as much as buying a year worth of heart guard and has not been tested like heart guard. I personally will not risk my dogs life and not use it. She will get it every month for the rest of her life because I love her way to much to play with heart worms. If you want to take that chance that's up to you but your poor dog is the one who will end up suffering!

yorkietalkjilly 04-14-2014 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yorkiemom76 (Post 4421239)
Working at a vet clinic, I've seen dogs euthanized because people couldn't afford the treatment for heartworm positive dogs. I've also seen what a dog has to go through for treatment. I'll take my chances with heartworm prevention. My dogs have been on it their whole lives with no problems and I know their is always a chance of a reaction but I'm not willing to risk it not giving it to them.

Same here for Tibbe. I'd rather him chance the reaction than him chance having his tiny heart full of those horrible things, coughing so hard, so short of breath, weak and diseased - and then to have to suffer - and I mean suffer - through those poisonous treatments which can kill them also. Our Animal Control Shelter told me that virtually all of the dogs that are brought in after running loose for a while will develop heartworm. It was hard hear and hard to believe but then I wondered why they would lie about it. It's such a horrible disease and terrible series of treatments. Having only seen one animal go through it was enough.

We've been fortunate enough to have made the change from Interceptor to Heartgard with no ill effects, though the change sure scared me. Tibbe loves his Heartgard, though I have to break it into two pieces as he would likely choke trying to swallow that one big chunk whole. He wolfs both halves down like a treat and it is easier to give than that tiny Interceptor pill was.

ladyjane 04-14-2014 10:11 AM

Sadly, I have seen the results of the holistic approach to heartworms. Yes, people can voice their opinions and all I can say is that I am happy to see that many don't listen to scare tactics and continue to protect the lives of their pups. If people really want to play Russian Roulette with their dog's health, there sadly is nothing anyone can do. They are not protected like children....and heck even children are being neglected and exposed to illnesses that they could be immunized against.

Here is a link to a thread about one very sweet pup, Callie, who died as a result of not being protected from heartworms. I will also be bumping that thread so that people who may be on the fence can gain some knowledge about this topic.

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/yor...kill-dogs.html

Teegy 04-14-2014 10:38 AM

There is no dispute that heartworm disease can kill.
The article outlines that we need to question the state of our dogs health and immune system. Consider what is regularly put into it's body and honestly believe they are 100% healthy.
There are too many dog foods loaded with lab created equivalents to the natural enzymes and minerals in a natural diet. Look at all you do to your dog every year with vaccinations. The proportions are the same of that given to a dog of 150 pounds. Unlike heartworm meds that are dispensed by weight. Do we vaccinate ourselves annually.
There has to be long term effects. Just like the toxins in smoking damage your lungs. And alcoholism tends to destroy your liver.
There will always be those who have lost pets to the disease and those who never medicated and never lost a pet.
I appreciate that most of you err on the side of caution. I know loads of people who don't and have never had issues all the years they have had dogs.
So they will swear by not giving it as much as many will swear by administering it.

Ellie May 04-14-2014 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teegy (Post 4421282)
There is no dispute that heartworm disease can kill.
The article outlines that we need to question the state of our dogs health and immune system. Consider what is regularly put into it's body and honestly believe they are 100% healthy.
There are too many dog foods loaded with lab created equivalents to the natural enzymes and minerals in a natural diet. Look at all you do to your dog every year with vaccinations. The proportions are the same of that given to a dog of 150 pounds. Unlike heartworm meds that are dispensed by weight. Do we vaccinate ourselves annually.
There has to be long term effects. Just like the toxins in smoking damage your lungs. And alcoholism tends to destroy your liver.
There will always be those who have lost pets to the disease and those who never medicated and never lost a pet.
I appreciate that most of you err on the side of caution. I know loads of people who don't and have never had issues all the years they have had dogs.
So they will swear by not giving it as much as many will swear by administering it.

Owners may think their dogs are not affected, but without continuously negative test results they can't possibly know for sure. And I'd rather not skip prevention and end up with a dog who has to be treated. Unfair to the dog.

Vaccination dosage is the same for all dogs because the immune system is not measured in pounds. It takes a certain amount to mount an immune response.

I have noticed the lingo related to enzymes has become popular online. What are these natural enzymes that are killed off supposed to be doing?

Teegy 04-14-2014 01:04 PM

I also read all the comments from readers, pros and cons are given and similar points that you all yourselves make.

Elli May, the explanation my vet gave me regarding dosing of the vaccines was that if he doesn't give the entire amount the pharma company doesn't guarantee it, as I had asked him to split it. I asked him so if my dog dies of an adverse reaction to the vaccine do they have an guarantee on that.
What else can you tell me about vaccines in regards to mounting an immune response and can you point me in the direction of a good source for this. Thanks

megansmomma 04-14-2014 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teegy (Post 4421369)
I also read all the comments from readers, pros and cons are given and similar points that you all yourselves make.

Elli May, the explanation my vet gave me regarding dosing of the vaccines was that if he doesn't give the entire amount the pharma company doesn't guarantee it, as I had asked him to split it. I asked him so if my dog dies of an adverse reaction to the vaccine do they have an guarantee on that.
What else can you tell me about vaccines in regards to mounting an immune response and can you point me in the direction of a good source for this. Thanks

When he told you that he couldn't split the vaccine did you decline to vaccinate?

107barney 04-14-2014 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by megansmomma (Post 4421375)
When he told you that he couldn't split the vaccine did you decline to vaccinate?

Not to go off topic here but if a vet ever even suggested splitting a dose, I would contact the state and file a complaint.

yipyap 04-14-2014 02:03 PM

We switched to our vet's Heartworm check & med
 
Our local vet does a yearly heartworm blood test on our Yorkie, and we also get a full year's worth of the vet clinic's Heart Guard meat chews as well in the cost for his whole visit. It actually winds-up costing us $10.00 Less than going to just any vet to get a blood test & then leaving with a 'paper carry-out-prescription'. (You Have to get a vet's test & their prescription paper in Virginia to buy heartworm medicine, no matter where you go to finally buy the medicine). I checked prices of good Heartworm prescriptions at a pet store, at WalMart pet drug counter, and also if I would send the prescription I got from our vet off to 1-800-Pet-Meds. Some states' vets do this yearly blood work check and a year's worth of Heart med together. I was pleased Taffy's vet did both the blood check & the medicine. By the time I added up the different purchase option methods, Taffy's vet was cheaper by a little bit. Taffy's vet has her own little dogs, and she checks them each year. She has had two clients who were giving their own versions of cheap store brand meds to their dogs, and the dogs got Heartworm. So, she offers this all in one check test & good med together now. Taffy & Sue

Lovetodream88 04-14-2014 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teegy (Post 4421282)
There is no dispute that heartworm disease can kill.
The article outlines that we need to question the state of our dogs health and immune system. Consider what is regularly put into it's body and honestly believe they are 100% healthy.
There are too many dog foods loaded with lab created equivalents to the natural enzymes and minerals in a natural diet. Look at all you do to your dog every year with vaccinations. The proportions are the same of that given to a dog of 150 pounds. Unlike heartworm meds that are dispensed by weight. Do we vaccinate ourselves annually.
There has to be long term effects. Just like the toxins in smoking damage your lungs. And alcoholism tends to destroy your liver.
There will always be those who have lost pets to the disease and those who never medicated and never lost a pet.
I appreciate that most of you err on the side of caution. I know loads of people who don't and have never had issues all the years they have had dogs.
So they will swear by not giving it as much as many will swear by administering it.

I don't know about where you live but here getting the rabies shot is the law and there is not choice. Not to mention if for some reason a rabid animal bit your dog it's all over no cure your dog has to be put to sleep. It's kind of annoying you always poo poo anything but raw food and holistic approaches in my opinion your raw food is highly more dangerous then processed food. Have you ever stopped and thought about the extremely sick dogs that raw would possibly kill that have gone on prescription processed food and it has saved there lives and made there health so much better. New flash raw is also not the only way to feed fresh foods home cooking is and in my opinion it's better then raw with and safer but am I going to continue to tell you that you feeding raw puts not only your dogs at risk or but young children older people, and anyone with a lower immune system at risk who are around your dogs. I also believe unless your feeding commercial pet raw there are certain vitamins your dog needs. Your natural stuff has long term effects that haven't been tested so we don't know them. It is completely off base to think you are the only good pet owner and the only one who does pet owning right! There is often not choice about certain shots so if you have a problem with it take it to each state leader not make people feel bad for following the law! There will always be the people who get lucky that dosent mean we should all do what they do especially if we know the facts and what is a myth and love out dogs.

Lovetodream88 04-14-2014 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 107barney (Post 4421378)
Not to go off topic here but if a vet ever even suggested splitting a dose, I would contact the state and file a complaint.

She is in Canada I think the same part of Canada where Gemy is where her dog got heart worms......

Ellie May 04-14-2014 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teegy (Post 4421369)
I also read all the comments from readers, pros and cons are given and similar points that you all yourselves make.

Elli May, the explanation my vet gave me regarding dosing of the vaccines was that if he doesn't give the entire amount the pharma company doesn't guarantee it, as I had asked him to split it. I asked him so if my dog dies of an adverse reaction to the vaccine do they have an guarantee on that.
What else can you tell me about vaccines in regards to mounting an immune response and can you point me in the direction of a good source for this. Thanks

I would start with a good immunology textbook if it is of interest to you. Heads up though, these are very hard reads. You can look at human vaccines to confirm that this is not just a vet med thing. Children and adults sometimes get different vaccines entirely, but other times they get the same dose of the same vaccine. It is all about immune response.

If a half dose of any med is given it won't (and should not) be guaranteed.

yorkiemom76 04-14-2014 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yorkietalkjilly (Post 4421264)
Same here for Tibbe. I'd rather him chance the reaction than him chance having his tiny heart full of those horrible things, coughing so hard, so short of breath, weak and diseased - and then to have to suffer - and I mean suffer - through those poisonous treatments which can kill them also. Our Animal Control Shelter told me that virtually all of the dogs that are brought in after running loose for a while will develop heartworm. It was hard hear and hard to believe but then I wondered why they would lie about it. It's such a horrible disease and terrible series of treatments. Having only seen one animal go through it was enough.

We've been fortunate enough to have made the change from Interceptor to Heartgard with no ill effects, though the change sure scared me. Tibbe loves his Heartgard, though I have to break it into two pieces as he would likely choke trying to swallow that one big chunk whole. He wolfs both halves down like a treat and it is easier to give than that tiny Interceptor pill was.

The treatments truly are horrible. I think if everyone who is against heartworm prevention could see what a dog has to go through for treatment, they would change their minds pretty quickly about prevention. My Mom's Collie had heartworms and the cure nearly killed him. Luckily he recovered and lived to be 16 years old but all dogs aren't so lucky. I've also seen the treatments at the vet clinic and not only are they horrible, they're terribly expensive. If people think the prevention is expensive, wait until they have to treat them.

I definitely believe what your Animal Control Shelter told you. I know we've had 2 cases of heartworm positive dogs in the clinic in just the last couple of weeks. Sadly, their are a lot of people that still don't know how it's contracted and are totally clueless about prevention. I've actually had people tell me that their dog didn't need heartworm tests or prevention because they had a fence around their yard.

I've mostly used Heartgard over the years but since I started working at the vet clinic 6 years ago, we get free samples of different products so they've been on Heartgard, Trifexis, Sentinel, Revolution and Interceptor at different times. I have 7 dogs so anything I can get free is good. Luckily, I haven't had any problems with any of them. I have a 14 1/2 year old Yorkie and a 13 year old Yorkie so obviously it must working.

Teegy 04-14-2014 04:27 PM

Megansmomma I asked the question during the annual bloodwork 6 months earlier he had given the vaccines

Teegy 04-14-2014 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ellie May (Post 4421417)
I would start with a good immunology textbook if it is of interest to you. Heads up though, these are very hard reads. You can look at human vaccines to confirm that this is not just a vet med thing. Children and adults sometimes get different vaccines entirely, but other times they get the same dose of the same vaccine. It is all about immune response.

If a half dose of any med is given it won't (and should not) be guaranteed.

Thanks Ellie May

megansmomma 04-14-2014 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teegy (Post 4421440)
Megansmomma I asked the question during the annual bloodwork 6 months earlier he had given the vaccines

I think everyone should ask as many questions as possible to make a very informed decision regarding both ourselves and those that depend upon us for their wellbeing. Love the idea of reading up on vaccinations and why they are administered in certain doses. Then you can have an intelligent conversation with your vet regarding your decisions. At the same time, if you go against their best standard of care advice regarding vaccines, HW or other treatments then you must be willing to live with that decisions.

Britster 04-14-2014 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom (Post 4421235)
I think it's absolutely great to question the norm and the "way we do things". Otherwise, we'd never advance from anything to anywhere else. So hopefully this thread will muster up some good discussion.

To augment this discussion, I've attached some incidence maps from 2007 and 2010 below.

I'm in Arizona...you can see that our incidence is very low. Regardless, I choose to treat my kiddos rather than risk them getting heartworm. Ivermectin is a broad spectrum antiparasitic that I feel is much less toxic, monthly, than the risk/toxicity of getting the actual disease and the subsequent treatment w/ arsenic.

Here's a little story. About 5 years ago, we found a GORGEOUS female black lab stray in our neighborhood - beautiful temperament, trained, purebred. We tried to find her owners for weeks, to no avail. Some friends ended up adopting her. At their first comprehensive vet check, they found out she had heartworm...which is/was an utter shock given I can't imagine a dog contracting it here in our dry, non-mosquito DESERT where we live. But, she had it. What are the chances? SO SLIM to none. I cannot tell you how glad I was that I happened to be treating for the just-in-case heartworm disease. The lab, Ella, went through just horrendous treatments to get rid of it - it was treated w/ arsenic, which is typical. Some will say that the "slow kill" version of treatment is effective, but there is also evidence/thought that it is not. Either way, they elected to go the arsenic route as recommended by 2 different vets.

Personally, I don't ever want to risk my dogs having to go through treatment for heartworm disease.

Sure, every med has potential side effects, and every med on the planet will likely and unfortunately result in some very rare deaths. In terms of Ivermectin, any severe poisonings due to it seem to be related to a gene anomaly in that particular dog. For my dogs personally, I don't observe any side effects whatsoever. Can some effects be happening, but not observable? Sure. But again, the risk/benefit outweighs the risk of getting the disease for my dogs.

As far as the warning that if ingested by humans, a doc should be seen immediately: I need more information. It could be that on ANY dog/animal med, it's required to have that disclaimer (I don't know). It could be that, genetically, heartworm meds metabolize differently in humans than in dogs. So, unless I know more about that part -- it really means nothing to me presently.

I respect the choices of others to do what's best for their pets and who knows, maybe someday I'll be against heartworm meds bc of new information...but for now, I'm for the prevention of heartworm that these meds offer.


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Well said.

Elliott 04-14-2014 05:41 PM

Question: This has always worried me living in Nebraska...lots of mosquitos. Elliott when he had his shots Rabies...etc.. he has had such severe reactions, vomiting blood almost lost him twice was in hospital for several days both times. Vet suggestion not to vaccinate him. We have not given him any shots for the past 4 years. He does have MVD. When he had his last two surgery's he had some problems with sleepy meds suppose it was how his body is processing the drugs. I am terrified to give him anything for fear of losing him but worried more about him getting heartworm...does anyone have a dog MVD that treats for Heartworm?

Lovetodream88 04-14-2014 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elliott (Post 4421467)
Question: This has always worried me living in Nebraska...lots of mosquitos. Elliott when he had his shots Rabies...etc.. he has had such severe reactions, vomiting blood almost lost him twice was in hospital for several days both times. Vet suggestion not to vaccinate him. We have not given him any shots for the past 4 years. He does have MVD. When he had his last two surgery's he had some problems with sleepy meds suppose it was how his body is processing the drugs. I am terrified to give him anything for fear of losing him but worried more about him getting heartworm...does anyone have a dog MVD that treats for Heartworm?

Have you talked to vet about it?

Elliott 04-14-2014 05:49 PM

yes we have visited several times about it....he of course always suggests to be proactive but always adds the disclaimer that there is no way to know how he will react...he is quite attached to Elliott also, we have all been through a lot together :) the past 5 years he has been front line in his care and little mans health since we brought him home has been a challenge.

107barney 04-14-2014 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elliott (Post 4421467)
Question: This has always worried me living in Nebraska...lots of mosquitos. Elliott when he had his shots Rabies...etc.. he has had such severe reactions, vomiting blood almost lost him twice was in hospital for several days both times. Vet suggestion not to vaccinate him. We have not given him any shots for the past 4 years. He does have MVD. When he had his last two surgery's he had some problems with sleepy meds suppose it was how his body is processing the drugs. I am terrified to give him anything for fear of losing him but worried more about him getting heartworm...does anyone have a dog MVD that treats for Heartworm?

My dog has MVD. She's been using heart worm meds since she was 8 weeks old, and will be 14 this year.


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