I'm sorry to get OT, but are the greenies dental chews safe now? I bought a bag last week for Teddy and since I'm a new pet owner I didn't know there were any dangers/recall issues?

It is private company. The alternative is to have govt take over the pharmaceutical companies, cap profits. Elected officials and bureaucrats take junkets, trips to nice vacay spots on the office dime too. Their salaries and especially pensions could be viewed as obscene.

Whether they could do a better job producing safe products without testing inhumanely on animals....well, the debate is still there.

The means of testing is not a money issue in my opinion. All the money in the world won't change whether or not testing is necessary.

:thumbup:

The manufacturer of the company says that they are reformulated and are 99.9% digestible, except for maybe a piece the size of a grain of rice. I haven’t heard of any deaths involved with the new ones, but I’ve lost faith in the company. This all happened around 4 1/2 years ago.

I agree, although I would say I'm too fearful to try them. People here use them with no ill effects, but the ingredients worry me too.

Thanks for the info. I'll discontinue using them.

This is basically my feelings.

I don't really have an answer to the questions and I don't have an alternative in my mind.

But yeah. Your post just sums up how I feel.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one Maximo. Watch the video and tell me it's ok and you are fine with it.

It is a huge jump to go from responsible billing practices to . . have the government take over. There's a happy medium in there somwhere.

Of course, they could do a better job and money is always an issue with everything.

I don't want to continue this ad nauseum so I'll stop here and you can have the last word.

I feel just as passionately about this issue as you do and we certainly need to hear from ALL ends of the spectrum.

I think there was a miscommunication here, due to my inadequate writing....I don't think we are talking about the same thing.

There is room for improvement on testing practices for sure, but going back to my earlier posts and Ellie May's and other people's, there are many practices that simply cannot be improved, heartworm preventatives, for instance. Either the products are tested on dogs in the labs, or our pets are the test-ees.

That is what I mean about money not being a factor.

Very well said and I agree 110%!!!!!

How we treat our lab and farm animal deaths will never be "okay" - ever.

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

I know we got way off topic here, but I did write to BB about my concerns. Their response to me was that they were NOT selling the company to anyone, that they remain family owned.

Take it for what it's worth.

Thought I'd weigh in, for the whole less than a penny it's worth. The first open heart surgeries were tested on dogs by Dr. Blalock and Dr. Vivien Thomas of Johns Hopkins University Hospital. They were performed to try to help children with a congenital disorder called Tetralogy of Fallot. The "heart lung machine" developed to perform this procedure and skillset learned are the foundation of open heart surgery as we know it today. Before this was developed, ppl died of heart disorders bc it was believed operating on the heart itself was almost a religious sacrilege.

That being said, I am grateful to these animals that gave their lives so that others' lives can be saved. I hope they were treated humanely and with dignity.

I think it is not such a black/white topic. Do we have the right to view human lives as more valuable? Ellie May brings up a good point about vet med testing on animals. There we are viewing some animals more valuable than others. Do we have the right to do so? Not sure. Where would we be without it, though?

Amen to that! I think the one thing I'm almost sure of, is that the more you learn, the more you realize almost nothing is black and white.

Live and learn :thumbup::thumbup:

Yes, I emailed them as well and got the same response. I hope it stays that way and doesn't change.
:)

I completely understand this because I am not ignorant nor am I naive to the fact that some of the technology today and the way things have progressed is because of experimentation and testing on animals.

This is not all directed to the above statement but to others that have commented previously as well.

That being said I am just surprised at the (in my opinion) casual way some have said that it's all for the good of MY PET.
In my mind there should be NO animal testing - with the technology we have today you can't tell me that there is NO OTHER WAY?!

I am also a little flabbergasted that there seems (imo) to be more sympathy toward the treatment of cows and pigs vs. DOGS?!
I grew up on a farm and to me cattle and pigs were raised solely for their meat and that is the only way some survived back in the day - I think the way they are treated before they are put down is deplorable but I am not going to become a vegan because of that.

Cattle, pigs (with the exception of potbelly pigs) and chickens are raised for their meat and eggs............DOGS are domestic animals that are raised to be a part of a family and I treat mine as such and the thought that someone could have experimented or tested something on them torturing them just breaks my heart in half!!
It is not a casual subject for me and it never will be and I will NOT support a company that does animal testing on DOGS!!!

I honestly think it is all about money and that there are other ways to test products but it would be more expensive so they don't do it!!!

Everything in this world is motivated by money so no one can tell me this isn't about money-P&G is all about MONEY-of course they are they are a HUGE conglomerate and they own the rights to about 1/2 the products in your house-it's about MONEY!!!!

The mistreatment of ANY animal is just not right and to me THAT is black and white. There is no reason a pig couldn't be used instead of a dog-or is that not okay? My mother had open heart surgery and she has a pig valve inside her not a dog valve so......hmmmmm, I just don't know what else to say!?

I wonder if the pig that gave up their valve for my mother was tortured....

If a person was a dog hoarder and they had a bunch of dogs in their house in kennels and laying around because they didn't have enough room to walk around the house, if they had sores on their legs that did not heal this person would be fined and jailed......think about it!

Wow. Not sure why the "I am not ignorant" statement was said.

I'm glad your mother benefitted from the procedure developed from animal testing. We actually have mechanical, porcine, and bovine valves. Each patient is evaluated, and the appropriate valve for patient and failing valve is chosen due to the individual evaluation.

I don't differentiate between domesticated and non-domesticated animals when it comes to animals giving their lives for another. Animal cruelty towards a horse is just as horendous (sp) to me as a dog. I'm not sure in the grand scheme of things how it is going to turn out for us as humans to put our needs above other species needs and feelings. There are some ppl who think you should be a vegan bc of how animals are slaughtered and cared for. Should they make such inflammatory statements to you bc you do not agree?

As I stated before, I am grateful to the sacrifices that dogs make for us every day in all walks - police dogs, cadavar dogs, drug dogs, rescue dogs, and the dogs that were used in cardiology bc of their similarity to human hearts. How many ppl do you know are as selfless as these dogs?

I'm not sure why this strong response was given, especially as I said, I am not sure who should be making the decision which animal dies, which animal lives, which animal gets treated humanely, which animal dies an awful death for my dinner.

There is this comedian who says we humans are very hypocritical when it comes to animal rights. Cute animals are deemed not appropriate to eat or be cruel to: otters, dogs, cats, bunnies, etc. Not so cute animals are appropriate to live lives of suffering and die in slaughter: cattle, pigs, chickens, etc. Something to think about, huh?

Example discussed in this thread: heartworm preventatives for dogs

What kind of advanced technology would allow for developing heartworm preventatives without using dogs in the labs?

How would money make a difference? A billion dollars available, how would the heartworm preventative be developed and tested for effectiveness without injecting animals in the lab with heartworms?

Current heartworm preventatives are starting to fail against new strains of heartworms. We need new and better preventatives to safeguard our pets.

I just wanted to add that WE as humans purposely BRED these dogs for those jobs. Dogs were created to work for humans for one reason or another. Those dogs doing those jobs LOVE what they do. Ever watch a Border Collie herd sheep, or a GSD do bitework/police work, a Yorkie chase a rat? These are wired into their DNA and I am sure if they had a choice, they'd be doing those things they were bred for. I don't really think it's the finest comparison.

As I said I wasn't really addressing my whole statement on your quote--It was for all of the previous statements as well.

I am not sure what I said that was inflammatory I was just stating that I don't understand how one could become vegan because they deplore the treatment of animals yet they are casual about how dogs are tortured for the "betterment" of society.

The "I am not ignorant" was really for others who repeatedly said things earlier about how dogs NEED to be tested so that drugs and food would be okay to give to their animals.

I personally LOVE ALL animals, I think cows, horses, pigs, chickens, dogs, cats, etc are God's BEAUTIFUL creations and should ALL be treated humanely!

I was in no way saying it's okay to mistreat a cow, pig, horse, chicken, etc. I again think ALL animals should be treated humanely.....the point I was trying to make was that I was flabbergasted that there are people out there that are Vegans because of the mistreatment of animals but are not as horrified by a beagle going insane because they are put in a kennel all their life, or have pieces of their backside chopped out, or given shots that make them sick or ill and they are just left on a floor to die.......all for the benefit of their own pet.
Yet, they refuse to eat meat because of the horrendous treatment of those animals.....you see to me that is sort of an oxymoron.....

I deplore ALL mistreatment of animals not just one type or kind.

I'll preface this by saying JMHO.

I'm a biological sciences major and pre-veterinary student. I wouldn't be aiming for vet school if I didn't love animals. And I just do not see any way that animal testing can be eliminated. It is impossible. Yes, some of it may have to do with money. And certainly there is cruelty going on that is avoidable and that has to do with money. However, there are many things that just can't be tested by machines. I applaud the companies that have found a way, but it is not always possible.

It seems there is a lot of emotion on this thread over this, but I don't see any suggestions about what companies could do to avoid testing on animals. Going back to heartworm disease - could we inject heartworms into pigs and then inject a heartworm drug and then euthanize and send for necropsy all while expecting that the results would be the same in the dog? No we can't. I'm not really sure why pigs are so much less important than dogs anyway. Yes, I prefer dogs, but in other countries people eat them. Pigs are very smart animals. Cows are amazing animals. Dogs being better than pigs and cows is really a personal belief.

I'm casual about it not because I like it, but because it's a fact of life. There was a time when I would have gotten totally upset (and I'll be the first to say I couldn't work in a lab with dogs), but I believe this is how my animals lead good lives. I would rather the drugs that my dogs take weren't given to them first. I'd call that unacceptable. I'd rather my heart meds were tried on animals (even dogs) before I take them. Usually the animal chosen is chosen for a reason. You can't test a rabies vaccine made for dogs on pigs. Then what? We know it works or doesn't work for pigs and have no idea if it works for dogs. So just start giving it to all the dogs that have owners and hope for the best? And if the vaccine kills these owned dogs, the company will be sued.. And if it fails? Then the dog ends up getting bitten and then bites a person - person is now dead. Look at the Rabies Challenge Fund. Dogs will be euthanized after given a dose of rabies to be tested. If we don't go through with the study, then our dogs will have to receive the rabies vaccine every 3 years for all time.

BTW, I have a very serious medical issue (not fatal - nobody freak). The "fix" is being tested on dogs. For whatever reason, the extremely intelligent researchers in this country have decided that dogs are the best option. It is not something that a machine could possibly do. So I say no testing on dogs because a machine should be able to do it (which is impossible) and not accept the fix if there is one someday? Apparently the pig isn't as good for this (and even if it was, they are still living things). Or should I just let them experiment on me? If they get it wrong, I'm in a whole heck of a lot of trouble in this case.. ??

I understand what you are saying yet I can't believe there is "no other way" to test these things. I am sure that is the most accurate but I have a hard time believing there is not another way.

I personally don't have the answer for "the other way" BUT I think we should strive for a better way and I know there are very intelligent people out there that if given enough research "money" they can find a way.

There are better tests to check for breast cancer but because they cost
A LOT more than the mammogram we continue to use the mammogram as the primary form of testing.
That is my point-it usually comes down to money with everything.

Take science classes!

Police dogs often give their lives for their partners. I'm sure taking a bullet for their partner is not a pleasant experience or something they love. They just love their partner more than themselves. Rescue dogs often are injured walking on glass, construction debris, suffer respiratory illnesses after searching in 911 rubble. Again, there is physical pain that they endure. Dog were trained to sniff out the ebola virus in Africa to save human lives in infected areas. Herding dogs give their lives and become injured protecting flocks. I'm sure they do not enjoy this aspect of the job. Let's not forget our famous yorkie, Smokey, who parachuted out of planes w her owner and crawled through pipelines to carry communication wire into enemy territory. I'm sure she did not enjoy some of the things asked of her, but her courage was much larger than her stature.

I personally do not like to diminish these selfless acts of dogs and simply say "it is what they were bred to do."

excuse me???????????

Most of the greatest inventions in the world came from people working in their own homes without research grants. :)

Money, recognition, and power have motivated people to invent great things just as much as necessity and creative drive.

I agree with Ellie May's post. In many cases, using animals, dogs, for lab testing is often unavoidable if we want safe, effective medications and health treatments.

I don't see where anybody said they thought it was okay to torture dogs. I think I speak for everyone here - we HATE it. That doesn't make it any less necessary. Good researchers try to minimize pain and suffering. In the case of heartworm testing, it probably isn't anymore painful than an injection. It's still incredibly sad and stirs up emotion. But I see no other way. Yes, my dogs come before all other animals on the face of this earth in my mind.

The more people we have like you in science the better!

Adding to my post...

In other words, if there were a magic solution to avoid the use of animals, someone would invent it, patent it, sell it and promote to make lots of $$$.