"If" there are by-products in these foods, why don't they just say so.. I think Dr. R says it best, "melodious sounding ingredients concocted by a marketing guru."

Wonder how many companies have dodged putting the real ingredients in their ingredient list now.

I've been wary of Champion since they glossed over their formula changes last year. That really upset me. I understand that companies will have formula changes; however, they readily advertised that the changes would be minimal and most dogs would seamlessly transition from Adult 70/30 to Adult 80/20. Neither of my pups could tolerate the new formula...which coincidentally, went from being chicken-based to chicken AND fish-based.

No, but it's Googlable. I guess meat unfit for human consumption is dipped in something to signify that. That is denaturing. Some things used to denature are highly questionable.

I think they got a good deal on that fish. lol
I've never loved them. And I'm beginning to hate most small dog food companies.

This food thing is driving me nuts. Like I said last night I understand what my vet is saying about comparing the larger co. that has been around along time with the smaller ones, but, I just can't go the by-products. I am just going to stick with Welliness. I did buy 2 cans of white fish a couple of months ago to see if they would eat it and the smell almost made me puke. I still have the other can which I am going to throw away because I can not stand that smell. They eat it but was not crazy over it. Last time I buy the fish. Makes me sick to my stomach the products that are put out, not just food, but other things that could harm our babies. Its all about the dollar. They could care less about them and how much we love and want the best for them. I for one don't want mine eating garbage.

Champion replied to somebody on another forum. I'll just post the link:
Did I expect to much of Champion Petfood? - Page 2

Their fish passes fit for human consumption (they say their ingredients are produced exclusively from animals fit for human consumption). It comes from these animals, but no longer would be considered that when reaching Champion (IMO). I've never seen where they have said that their products "are" fit. They always say something like "have passed" (as in, they were par of an animal that was, but may not be anymore).

They say they pull the remaining meat and fat off the carcass. It is this that they use. "a very high quality ingredient - the same fish that goes into human grade fish cakes". They think their meat/fat that is pulled off is a high quality ingredient (for dogs, it probably is). Then they say it is the same fish that goes into human fish cakes. Notice they didn't say it's the same "ingredient", but the same fish (do they mean type of fish)..? They also use bone which is also fine. But it sounds like what they are using would be called by-products if any other company used it...

I wonder if this Freashwater Fish Company sells minced fish or has a market for it. If they do (would have not need to render it), then that doesn't look good for Champion.

Anyway, this email didn't do anything for my suspicion. I hope somebody emails them again and asks more specific questions. Also, the terminology does get a bit weird with fish because less of it seems to be considered waste.

Wow... this is very interesting. I am glad that I had chosen another brand any way... but it just is starting to feel like all dog food companies have some form of 'sketchy' behavior and none of the foods is great... just some are slightly better than others.

Yes, lots of word games in that email.

This is what it boils down to. Ha, boils or renders. :p

It is interesting.

Looks like they send fish around the world:
Products | Species | From Lake to Plate

So if it was considered something humans would eat, it wouldn't have goneto rendering (all while company was paying rendering to take it).

wow is all I can say, I guess I didnt expect that from the so called "best dog food company around" Im so glad I switched back to SD!

:rolleyes: Because SD never lies, either.

I said I wasn't going to comment on anymore food threads but here I am lol.

So now let's all be SD worshipers until one of their recalls occurs or they beat around the bush about something. Because it WILL happen and it HAS happened in the past.

SD is not the almighty dog food makers and neither is Champion. I think they are both doing the best that they can, for what it's worth.

This it totally my feeling. All companies have their skeletons in the closet. Just the way it is. You are never going to find a 100% everything company in any industry, but especially dog food industry, where lots of terms are unregulated and misused, etc.

Brit, you're passionate about dog food and you should talk about it.

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I think there should be an automatic red flag when a fish based, high protien kibble is only $3 a pound. Good fish runs several dollars a pound and it is much more concentrated in dog food. A food that is mostly fish protein really should be much more expensive.

Anyway, there is no problem with using these parts of fish in dog food whatsoever. But that's just it. Lots of companies use by-products and people hate them for it. What Champion is doing doesn't look much different. So maybe by-products aren't always bad and maybe we have been too hard on some other companies for using them.

Ellie doesn't eat SD. And for my other pup, we will go through the brands one by one putting safety procedures and track record of the food first. Then we will make our way to smaller companies if need be. He may or may not stay on SD depending on what HE does well on.

I think I'm starting to agree about by-products. They always grossed me out. But, really, feeding a dog raw meat would... on my personal "gross" scale, be up higher than by products, lol, I think. Doesn't mean I think it's wrong to feed a dog raw meat at all, but I'm just saying that for me personally, feeding it, touching it, and looking at it, would gross me out more than even knowing by-products are in my dogs food (but maybe that's just because I can't physically SEE them). lol.

With everything said, I still think highly of Champion. I think when it comes to "high end" or "holistic" dog food, they are one company that I trust the most.

I pay 89 cents per pound for a 40 pound case of Tilapia. I would not necessarily rule out bulk purchases of superior grade fish at something under 3 dollars per pound.

Every dog food manufacturer has a slick marketing campaign with descriptions of their products that can be criticized, including both Champion and Science Diet.

I don't believe anyone here wants every pet caregiver to start feeding 1 or 2 brands of dog food. Diversity and competition in the marketplace are good. When a company gains too much of the market share, there is a risk that the company gets too comfortable and grows lax (or more lax) in their standards. I believe that is what has happened to Merrick.

Discussion on this topic is good; diversity in ideas is good. Informed pet caregivers/consumers are the best means to motivate manufacturers to improve their products, their manufacturing, and their marketing.

I don't believe it is anyone's goal here to have everyone think exactly alike. The goal is to think critically and to keep an open mind.

Not everyone here would give my food choice their seal of approval. That is okay, and I hope they would not hold back criticism of Fromm just because I feed it. I would appreciate the info and weigh it accordingly.