Thoughts on Raw Diet.....

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by SpArKyOfCaLi

Is it ok to feed raw and kibble? For some reason, my mind is thinking that I read somewhere that one should not mix raw and kibble. I could be wrong and need to research more.

Yes, it's fine. The stomach doesn't know the difference btwn raw and non-raw. It recognizes water, protein, carbs, fats, toxins (in a nutshell, that is). It churns, releases correlating enzymes for digestion, and pushes foods that are ready into the small intestine. It's really that simple. The tummy is a very smart organ.

The theory of not mixing is like saying - don't eat raw veggie w/ cooked veggie bc they may have a differing rate of digestion....um, huh?

[tem_sat]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

I don't feed or recommend raw. Before starting this kind of diet, please make sure none of the following would be something you'd be concerned about your pup consuming. And if you do have concerns, find out what needs to be done to make sure these things aren't present in the meat that you feed.

E. coli
Salmonella
Campylobacter
Neospora
Trichinella
Toxoplasmosis
Brucellosis
MRSA
Anthracis
Trematoda
Mesocestoides
Taeniasis
Etc.

Of course not all of these are present in certain places and some are only found in particular species. Some are rare. Some can be found in kibble too. Some things can be killed by freezing at certain temps for specific periods while others can't and there is a potential of reactivation when thawed. Companies who make premade raw foods do some testing. What testing do they do? Is this adequate for you and your pup?

Dogs can and do choke on bones, even raw bones. They can tear up intestines leading to emergency surgery, enemas, and potentially death.

Prey model diets are balanced by owners or nutritionists without the credentials to decide what a balanced diet is. Veterinary nutritionists (veterinarians who are members of the ACVN) will usually help balance a prey model diet, but they generally do not support feeding this way. When trying to figure out if a pup's diet is balanced (prey model raw or homecooked), a veterinary nutritionist should be consulted. Unbalanced diets can lead to blood and bone problems (very quickly in puppies).

Before straying from an AAFCO approved kibble or canned food, remember that just because there aren't a ton of reports of alternative diets negatively affecting pets, that doesn't mean they don't exist. They just aren't always talked about online.

And most vets try to redirect their clients to AAFCO approved foods not because they don't know what they're talking about, but because they are about your pets. Next time when a vet says they don't agree with feeding raw or even homecooked, maybe ask them why. Some will have old cases of very serious problems with these diets. I know Ellie's vet does.

There are more inaccuracies with this post than I have time to spend dissecting it. Please submit documented proof of a raw MEATY bone which has "torn up instestines".

[Ellie May]

Interesting first post.

Since this was not intended as a debate thread about the raw diet, it is not something I'm going to go back and forth over.

The bottom line is that not everybody agrees that this diet is safe and so we choose not to feed or recommend it.

Perhaps that could have been worded differently. I'll go with bones can and do cause intestinal obstructions potentially leading to emergency surgery and necrosis, painful bowel movements leading to the need to give enemas, and broken teeth.

[RileyDC]

I swear I have thought this, before....
Occassionally there will be some Random Person.... who has no albums.... no friends.... no nothing.... who will either post something in a thread, or who will reply....to a thread......
It is usually something off the wall...... and I swear I think they do it just to try and stir up stuff.... And, it usually works.

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by tem_sat

There are more inaccuracies with this post than I have time to spend dissecting it. Please submit documented proof of a raw MEATY bone which has "torn up instestines".

What's your definition of 'documented' - do you mean peer-reviewed journal studies (ie, w/ controls and blinds...which would almost be impossible).

There are many reports on dogs who have died from bones piercing the GI and bone occlusions - resulting in death.

Originally Posted by Ellie May

I'll go with bones can and do cause intestinal obstructions potentially leading to emergency surgery and necrosis, painful bowel movements leading to the need to give enemas, and broken teeth.

I agree 100%. Except I would add 'death' to Ellie May's statement.

As a raw feeder for 3 years (pre-made, not prey model), all of my raw theories/beliefs are based upon the wolf, which the dog descends from. Btw, I do feed marrow bones to my crew for teeth cleaning, however, they are not consumable and most of the marrow is scraped out due to high fat content and the vulnerability of pancreatitis in the yorkie breed.

For wolves, almost *all* raw bones (esp fragments) are digested with fur surrounding them - thereby protecting the GI during digestion.

The following is an extremely informative discussion regarding wolves and GI upset via feeding bones. This discussion is btwn DVMs, Canid Researchers, a Wolf Haven 'curator', Int'l Wolf Ctr, Wolf Park, Wildlife Biologists, and The Wolf Society of Great Britain.

Hopefully this provides some firsthand documentation. Hope it is helpful. Welcome to YT.

Feeding Wolves/Canids Raw Bones

[Buster Brown]

Originally Posted by tem_sat

There are more inaccuracies with this post than I have time to spend dissecting it. Please submit documented proof of a raw MEATY bone which has "torn up instestines".

I find your post to be both arrogant and presumptuous. If you can not be bothered to point out and address what YOU FEEL are inaccuracies in the post than I must dismiss your post as your personal opinion and nothing more. If you wish your OPINION to be considered a valid counterpoint then you must provide evidence of the so called inaccuracies. Are you a Vet, Tech, Nutritionist??? What expertise are you basing YOUR OPINION ON?

[tem_sat]

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

What's your definition of 'documented' - do you mean peer-reviewed journal studies (ie, w/ controls and blinds...which would almost be impossible).

Certainly not anything of the sort. However, my question was posed more specifically. I used the phrase "raw MEATY bone".

I will agree with Ellie May's statement 100% if it is edited to state:

I'll go with COOKED bones can and do cause intestinal obstructions potentially leading to emergency surgery and necrosis, painful bowel movements leading to the need to give enemas, and broken teeth.

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

As a raw feeder for 3 years (pre-made, not prey model), all of my raw theories/beliefs are based upon the wolf, which the dog descends from. Btw, I do feed marrow bones to my crew for teeth cleaning, however, they are not consumable and most of the marrow is scraped out due to high fat content and the vulnerability of pancreatitis in the yorkie breed.

I would be very careful to avoid any sort of marrow bone, as they tend to be way too dense and risk tooth breakage. I would never feed them.

In addition, your point regarding pancreatitis is an interesting one. I would tend to feel the same way that you do due to the predominance of that issue which shows up in Yorkies. I, personally, would accept that raw dietary fat is extremely different from cooked and heavily processed animal fat. For example, raw chicken skin vs. cooked chicken skin.

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

For wolves, almost *all* raw bones (esp fragments) are digested with fur surrounding them - thereby protecting the GI during digestion.

With all due respect, I would be very surprised if chicken feathers or fish scales were needed to protect the wolf from digesting chicken or fish bones.

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

The following is an extremely informative discussion regarding wolves and GI upset via feeding bones. This discussion is btwn DVMs, Canid Researchers, a Wolf Haven 'curator', Int'l Wolf Ctr, Wolf Park, Wildlife Biologists, and The Wolf Society of Great Britain.

Hopefully this provides some firsthand documentation. Hope it is helpful. Welcome to YT.

Feeding Wolves/Canids Raw Bones

I read that and thanks...

Also, thank you very much for your welcome and I am happy to hear that your Yorkie is doing well on his diet!

-- Tara

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by tem_sat

Certainly not anything of the sort. However, my question was posed more specifically. I used the phrase "raw MEATY bone".

I would be very careful to avoid any sort of marrow bone, as they tend to be way too dense and risk tooth breakage. I would never feed them.

In addition, your point regarding pancreatitis is an interesting one. I would tend to feel the same way that you do due to the predominance of that issue which shows up in Yorkies. I, personally, would accept that raw dietary fat is extremely different from cooked and heavily processed animal fat. For example, raw chicken skin vs. cooked chicken skin.

With all due respect, I would be very surprised if chicken feathers or fish scales were needed to protect the wolf from digesting chicken or fish bones.

I read that and thanks...

Also, thank you very much for your welcome and I am happy to hear that your Yorkie is doing well on his diet!

-- Tara

Yes, that's why I posted that link...since they're discussing raw meaty bones and carcasses. A carcass definitely has raw meaty bones. And yes, I think we'd all agree that cooked bones are brittle and unsafe - that's never really been an argument here, thankfully.

I've had a problem w/ consumable bones, but never w/ marrow bones - with teeth or otherwise. I'm sure this is not the case with all dogs; I'm sure there are those who've seen teeth breakage with raw bones and lots of other things. Just as there are experiences here and elsewhere w/ dog deaths from consumable RMBs.

Regarding chicken feathers and fish scales, I haven't really seen reliable info regarding this in a fashion similar to the wolf discussion link. The points they were discussing in the link seemed more like deer carcasses and other furred animals - not chickens or fish.

There are prey model feeders here too, and they love using that model. It always lends to good discussions when people share their point of view and info as it's always evolving.

I'm still not clear on what you were looking for in terms of documentation? I have a lot of raw links I could share (and there is a thread in the Library too), but it's not really 'documentation', per se. If you do have any good/new links to add to the library thread, I'd def love to add them .

[LaviniaHyacynth]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

Interesting first post.

Since this was not intended as a debate thread about the raw diet, it is not something I'm going to go back and forth over.

The bottom line is that not everybody agrees that this diet is safe and so we choose not to feed or recommend it.

Perhaps that could have been worded differently. I'll go with bones can and do cause intestinal obstructions potentially leading to emergency surgery and necrosis, painful bowel movements leading to the need to give enemas, and broken teeth.

My brother's dog died from eating chicken bones....they punctured his intestine....large lab, too..... so sad

[Britster]

Originally Posted by LaviniaHyacynth

My brother's dog died from eating chicken bones....they punctured his intestine....large lab, too..... so sad

Very sad.

They were probably cooked though, right?

Cooked bones are NOT good for dogs. I knew many people, including my stepdad, who would always give dogs leftover bones from meals, etc, I finally had to explain to him how bad it is. But I was surprised how common it is for people to give dogs bones like that.

[jeamsden]

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

I do, and I really love it. We have quite a few raw feeders here (some feed pre-made, some feed prey model). I like pre-made both bc of simplicity, and bc of choking hazards that can come w/ prey model. Marcel has an extremely tiny throat, and the risk w/ prey is too great for him. I've been feeding raw for about 3 years now...?

With raw, their poops are tiny and non-smelly. It's also supposed to help w/ teeth bc the enzymes aren't cooked out...the studies would have a tough time proving this though.

Some people are less supportive of raw, but are generally very supportive of the people here who choose this route - which is nice. We used to get in some heated convos here regarding raw and that def calmed down. So nice!

Thank you for your response. Sorry, that it became a heated convo. I am sure we all have different opinions about a number of issues. Well, I have my little girl her first taste of PRIMAL beef and she LOVED it. I am slowly introducing it to her and will watch her reaction. Thank you again

[FlDebra]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

I don't feed or recommend raw. Before starting this kind of diet, please make sure none of the following would be something you'd be concerned about your pup consuming. And if you do have concerns, find out what needs to be done to make sure these things aren't present in the meat that you feed.

E. coli
Salmonella
Campylobacter
Neospora
Trichinella
Toxoplasmosis
Brucellosis
MRSA
Anthracis
Trematoda
Mesocestoides
Taeniasis
Etc.

Of course not all of these are present in certain places and some are only found in particular species. Some are rare. Some can be found in kibble too. Some things can be killed by freezing at certain temps for specific periods while others can't and there is a potential of reactivation when thawed. Companies who make premade raw foods do some testing. What testing do they do? Is this adequate for you and your pup?

Dogs can and do choke on bones, even raw bones. They can tear up intestines leading to emergency surgery, enemas, and potentially death.

Prey model diets are balanced by owners or nutritionists without the credentials to decide what a balanced diet is. Veterinary nutritionists (veterinarians who are members of the ACVN) will usually help balance a prey model diet, but they generally do not support feeding this way. When trying to figure out if a pup's diet is balanced (prey model raw or homecooked), a veterinary nutritionist should be consulted. Unbalanced diets can lead to blood and bone problems (very quickly in puppies).

Before straying from an AAFCO approved kibble or canned food, remember that just because there aren't a ton of reports of alternative diets negatively affecting pets, that doesn't mean they don't exist. They just aren't always talked about online.

And most vets try to redirect their clients to AAFCO approved foods not because they don't know what they're talking about, but because they are about your pets. Next time when a vet says they don't agree with feeding raw or even homecooked, maybe ask them why. Some will have old cases of very serious problems with these diets. I know Ellie's vet does.

Ellie May -- I thought your post was very well-thought out and presented a fair opinion. You made sure to say that the things on your list are not in all raw and some are in kibble as well. You were very fair -- saying bones can and do cause choking and intestinal damage, even raw. Of course we know it is not always going to happen, but the fact is is is a possibility. To say you need to present documentation is over the top. We all know of incidences where a dog has choked on a bone. Even the sites that are pro-raw diets agree it is a possibility although not nearly as common as with cooked bones.

I am another who has decided to forgo the raw diet. I (like others suggested in your post) am not as knowledgeable about diets to be able to ensure myself I was providing all that my dog would need to balance their diet. I believe many do this well and for them the choice is a good one. I am not against others using a raw diet, but feel it is not for me and mine. All of my dogs are small and one is tiny -- this too increases the danger of bones. I could grind the bones, but this seems to take away a good portion of the potential benefits derived from the raw diet. So for me and my dogs, sticking with a premium kibble seems to be best. I will occasionally remove a large bone before cooking like a T-bone or the round bone in a round roast and let mine chew on it. But before they start crunching and splintering bone, I take it away and throw it out.

But I don't have anything against those who have researched and found raw bones are the best choice for their dogs and would NOT insult them for their decision. Many of them know more about canine dietary needs than I do. I think we all just have to read up and make decisions based on our own minds and heart. I will also admit that part of my decision is just the fear of them choking even though I know it is a rare possibility. There is no reason for any to insult or berate another for the choices they make when they have researched the subject. I think there is plenty to show a raw diet is safe enough that no one needs to feel bad for going that route. I also think there is plenty to show those of us feeding premium kibble are doing right by our dogs needs as well. We are all doing what we think is best and none of it is really bad for our dogs. Now if someone says they only feed table scraps or they only feed toast and jelly or something equally preposterous, then maybe we would have a case for saying it is wrong. But as long as we are all sticking with a premium diet (raw or commercially-prepared) there is no harm/no foul. We should all remain courteous and respectful, regardless of what is being fed.

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by jeamsden

Thank you for your response. Sorry, that it became a heated convo. I am sure we all have different opinions about a number of issues. Well, I have my little girl her first taste of PRIMAL beef and she LOVED it. I am slowly introducing it to her and will watch her reaction. Thank you again

No worries! We have lots of passionate discussions here...and your post opened a good discussion.

Originally Posted by FlDebra

I will occasionally remove a large bone before cooking like a T-bone or the round bone in a round roast and let mine chew on it. But before they start crunching and splintering bone, I take it away and throw it out.

Same here. I'm fine w/ them chewing/gnawing...but I'm not okay with them being able to chomp off pieces of bone. Having been through a near-death choking incident w/ Marcel, the risk is not worth it.

Originally Posted by FlDebra

But I don't have anything against those who have researched and found raw bones are the best choice for their dogs and would NOT insult them for their decision. Many of them know more about canine dietary needs than I do. I think we all just have to read up and make decisions based on our own minds and heart. I will also admit that part of my decision is just the fear of them choking even though I know it is a rare possibility. There is no reason for any to insult or berate another for the choices they make when they have researched the subject. I think there is plenty to show a raw diet is safe enough that no one needs to feel bad for going that route. I also think there is plenty to show those of us feeding premium kibble are doing right by our dogs needs as well. We are all doing what we think is best and none of it is really bad for our dogs. Now if someone says they only feed table scraps or they only feed toast and jelly or something equally preposterous, then maybe we would have a case for saying it is wrong. But as long as we are all sticking with a premium diet (raw or commercially-prepared) there is no harm/no foul. We should all remain courteous and respectful, regardless of what is being fed.

Exactly.

While passionate discussions about food are engaging and educational, it doesn't mean the exchange has to disparage anyone's opinion.

[Britster]

Originally Posted by FlDebra

Ellie May -- I thought your post was very well-thought out and presented a fair opinion. You made sure to say that the things on your list are not in all raw and some are in kibble as well. You were very fair -- saying bones can and do cause choking and intestinal damage, even raw. Of course we know it is not always going to happen, but the fact is is is a possibility. To say you need to present documentation is over the top. We all know of incidences where a dog has choked on a bone. Even the sites that are pro-raw diets agree it is a possibility although not nearly as common as with cooked bones.

I am another who has decided to forgo the raw diet. I (like others suggested in your post) am not as knowledgeable about diets to be able to ensure myself I was providing all that my dog would need to balance their diet. I believe many do this well and for them the choice is a good one. I am not against others using a raw diet, but feel it is not for me and mine. All of my dogs are small and one is tiny -- this too increases the danger of bones. I could grind the bones, but this seems to take away a good portion of the potential benefits derived from the raw diet. So for me and my dogs, sticking with a premium kibble seems to be best. I will occasionally remove a large bone before cooking like a T-bone or the round bone in a round roast and let mine chew on it. But before they start crunching and splintering bone, I take it away and throw it out.

But I don't have anything against those who have researched and found raw bones are the best choice for their dogs and would NOT insult them for their decision. Many of them know more about canine dietary needs than I do. I think we all just have to read up and make decisions based on our own minds and heart. I will also admit that part of my decision is just the fear of them choking even though I know it is a rare possibility. There is no reason for any to insult or berate another for the choices they make when they have researched the subject. I think there is plenty to show a raw diet is safe enough that no one needs to feel bad for going that route. I also think there is plenty to show those of us feeding premium kibble are doing right by our dogs needs as well. We are all doing what we think is best and none of it is really bad for our dogs. Now if someone says they only feed table scraps or they only feed toast and jelly or something equally preposterous, then maybe we would have a case for saying it is wrong. But as long as we are all sticking with a premium diet (raw or commercially-prepared) there is no harm/no foul. We should all remain courteous and respectful, regardless of what is being fed.

Fantastic post.

I totally agree.

I have the same feelings about raw (well, PMR raw, not pre-made as I do feed that occasion). I feel safer with pre-made raw for some reason because I feel like it's properly balanced and has all the proper nutrients and well... I don't know, for some reason, I just feel better about feeding pre-made than buying meat myself and just... throwing it too him essentially.

I think raw can be GREAT. I totally get that it is the natural diet of the wolf and I do believe it is. I mean, heck, what do you think dogs ate before processed kibble? Kibble is a fairly new invention so I'm aware the natural diet of a canine *would* be raw meat or whatever they could find. It's just not something I'm comfortable with. For one, I don't even hardly cook for myself so I'm really too lazy to be finding meat and preparing it and making sure the ratios are correct and all that. To be honest, going to the store, buying a $10 bag of kibble, scooping it in a bowl and mixing with a dab of wet food is super easy. And I feel he's getting a good and proper nutrition and that I have done enough research to know he is getting what he needs and what is best for him.

I wish there were some kind of statistics about the longevity of a dogs life in, say, the 1800's compared to now. I will have to look into that.

[Britster]

I found this link interesting:

Home

In the late 1850s, a young electrician from Cincinnati named James Spratt went to London to sell lightning rods. When his ship arrived, crew members threw the leftover “ships biscuits” onto the dock, where they were devoured by hordes of waiting dogs.

Spratt had the idea that he could make cheap, easy-to-serve biscuits and sell them to the growing number of urban dog owners. His recipe was a baked mixture of wheat, beet root and vegetables bound together with beef blood. When Spratt’s Patent Meat Fibrine Dog Cakes came on the market in 1860, the pet-food industry was born. In 1870 he took the business to New York and began the American pet food industry.

In 1908 the F.H. Bennet Biscuit company opened, making biscuits shaped like bones, and also made the first puppy food, and was the first to package different-sized kibble.

In 1922 Chappel Brothers of Rockford, IL, introduced Ken-L Ration, the first canned dog food in the United States. It was horse meat. Ken-L Ration became such a success that by the mid-1930s they were breeding horses just for dog food and slaughtering 50,000 of them a year.

In 1931 The National Biscuit Company (Nabisco) bought Bennett’s company and renamed the biscuits Milkbones. They hired 3,000 salesmen with the specific goal of getting Milkbones into food stores — and into national consciousness. For the first time, dog biscuits were part of regular grocery shopping.

By 1941 canned dog food had a 90% share of the market … until the United States entered World War II and the government started rationing tin and meat. Then dry dog food became popular again (the biscuits where considered dry dog food).

In 1950 the Ralston Purina Company started using a cooking extruder to make their Chex cereal. Ingredients were pushed through a tube, cooked under high pressure, and puffed up with air. This allowed Chex to stay crisp in milk.

At about the same time, manufacturers were getting complaints about the appearance, texture and digestibility of dry dog food. Purina’s pet food division borrowed an extruder from the cereal division and experimented with it in secret for three years. The result: Purina Dog Chow.

I actually saw this posted on another forum and I think this is, more or less, how I am starting to feel about raw (when it comes to PMR or BARF).

The phrase "natural diet of dogs" always makes me cringe a little anyway. I'm not sure there is such a thing as a natural diet of dogs. I've seen feral dogs eat anything they can get their mouths on from garbage to roadkill to raiding people's gardens to whatever they can catch, but they're certainly not eating the equivalent of what most people feed as a raw diet these days. Not to mention that with all our selective breeding they've become one of the most unnatural animals on the planet and I'm not sure descriptors like "natural diet" are even applicable to modern dogs.

But then again, a dog is 99.8% genetically the same as a wolf, so technically they process foods the same way.... so I am not really sure.