Cosequin and LP

[Nikki+2]

After much searching I've determined it's really hard to do a thorough search on LP on YT due to it being too short and the full term, luxating patella not being used frequently. So I'm sorry in advance for starting a thread that I'm sure has been covered a million times.

Gracie has grade 2 lp in both legs and Sugar was just diagnosed with grade 3 in both. Neither have any symptoms at all with the exceptions of Gracie favoring a leg for a few seconds and that has probably happened 2 or 3 times in her whole life, and one time Sugar got up to run and his legs went out for a split second. At the time I wrote it off to him attempting a full run straight from a deep sleep to join the other dogs barking.

I am so, soooo hesitant to go through with LP surgery when there does not seem to be any pain at all. Sugar, being a 3 would be the first consideration of the 2. He has never been able to jump up or off of furniture so there isn't any danger of him injuring it further by jumping and truthfully, he really isn't a very active dog at all. He doesn't even join in to play with Gracie and Spike but just likes to sit back and watch, wag his tail like crazy and give a little bark here and there to cheer it on.

So at this point I'm going to start cosequin for all three of them. I am actually furious that my vet has never mentioned it and I've left a message for him to call me to see why. For those of you with experience in this; what can I expect and how will I know if it's doing anything? With grade 3 LP, is the most I can hope for is to hold off arthritis? Will it possibly keep Gracie from progressing to stage 3? She's been at 2 for most of her life and I'm guessing in her case it was hereditary and could easily stay a 2. I believe Sugar's is from injury as he has had 2 falls (neither were with me but of course that's beside the point).

I really don't want to put him through surgery unless it's 100% necessary but then I worry if I make the wrong decision, will he end up paying for it later?

[Ellie May]

It does seem a bit odd that your vet didn't say anything about glucosamine.
I'd put both of them on Cosequin and strongly consider talking to an ortho surgeon about Sugar. Grade 3's and 4's generally do require surgery.

They may have some stomach upset on the Cosequin but most do just fine.
We use the capsules here and break them open on food.

As far as I know, it cannot reverse the damage and things may or may not get worse. It should help strengthen the joint though.

[Lolasmom1211]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

It does seem a bit odd that your vet didn't say anything about glucosamine.
I'd put both of them on Cosequin and strongly consider talking to an ortho surgeon about Sugar. Grade 3's and 4's generally do require surgery.

They may have some stomach upset on the Cosequin but most do just fine.
We use the capsules here and break them open on food.

As far as I know, it cannot reverse the damage and things may or may not get worse. It should help strengthen the joint though.

Is it a good idea to have all of these little Yorkies on Cosequin as sort of a preventative and to strengthen the joints?

[sandyapk]

I wonder if you have gotten a second opinion from another vet?

I too think your vet should of suggested the supplement earlier.

Sorry you and your babies have to go through all of this.

Sending you prayers!

[Nikki+2]

Thanks for the responses. Trust me, I am very annoyed with my vet right now and also myself for not finding out on my own. Not feeling like a very good mommy right now I'm usually a research fanatic, I can't believe I let this slide.

I haven't gotten a second opinion because I just found out about the grade 3 and up until then I was under the impression it was a grade 1. During the same visit he was concerned about a potential, complicated dental surgery for Sugar which was dealt with today (no surgery this time- yay). He's always been very clear with me that Gracie had grade 2 but always just called Sugar's "mild". I tried to get him to clear that up on the phone today but he just kept reiterating that up until this last visit, Sugar's records showed grade 2. Fine, but why was he calling it mild but calling Gracie's what it was- grade 2? When I talked to him today it was to let me know how Sugar did with his dental and we just briefly discussed the LP. I read about the cosequin after that and have left a message for him to call me again.

I would definitely get a second opinion before going through with surgery but it probably is a good idea to get one to help me make my decision. Normally I trust my vet completely- he is really well known as being an excellent vet in our area and I've always felt nothing but complete confidence in him, but my faith is a bit shaken given that he didn't suggest cosequin and the confusion over the LP. He did give me a thorough explanation of the different grades and showed me diagrams to illustrate his explanation so I feel fairly confident that he is correct with his diagnosis.

[Ladymom]

Luxating patellas themselves don't cause pain, the arthritis they cause is what becomes so painful. Please get them evaluated by an orthopedic vet. People don't realize how much stress luxating patellas put on the other joints. We have a member on another forum whose Maltese has become severely bow legged from LP's. Her vet never suggested surgery so she never got a second opinion. This poor guy is only five years old, but has painful and crippling arthritis that he will now have to live with for the rest of his life because it is too late for surgery now. If surgery is recommended, the sooner you have it done, the better chance your Yorkie will have a pain free life.

This was written by a vet on another forum I belong to:

Luxating Patellas

Patellas can be diagnosed at a very young age, toy breeds are at high incidence of LP. some LP can be made from a trauma and won't be present at the initial exam. i dont think that a dog with LP should be bred, but it doesnt mean that 2 normal dogs can't produce a pup with LP. i check the knees at a first pup visit but that isn't to say that every vet does. some don't look unless there is an issue. and u can grade patellas with out an xray:

Medial patellar luxations are graded to assess severity.

Grade I: The kneecap can be moved out of place manually but will fall back into its natural position once the manipulator lets go.

Grade 2: Same thing except that the kneecap does not move back to its normal position when the manipulator lets go. These dogs are likely to progress to arthritis development and should be considered for surgery to prevent conformational damage. There is some controversy over whether grade 2 dogs should have surgery.

Grade 3: The patella is out of place all the time but can be manipulated back into its normal position manually (though it will not stay there).

Grade 4: The patella is not only out of place all the time but cannot even be manipulated back into place by hand. Such a dog has extreme difficulty extending his knees and walks with his knees bent virtually all the time.

It is not a good thing to have one's knee cap out of place; the entire weight-bearing stress of the rear leg is altered which, in time, leads to changes in the hips, long bones, and ultimately arthritis. How severe the changes are depends on how severe the luxation is (i.e., the grade as described above) and how long that degree of luxation has been going on. In time, the legs will actually turn inward, making the dog "knock-kneed." The luxation is not considered a painful condition but after enough time and conformational change, arthritis sets in, which is indeed painful.

Dogs with Grade I luxations do not require surgical repair.

Grade 2 dogs may benefit from surgery and most often the owner is called upon to judge how big a problem the lameness is.

Dogs with Grade 3 or 4 disease definitely should have surgery.

[Ellie May]

Blaming yourself for not researching isn't going to do any good now, so try to let it go. Sometimes vets just don't remember to mention things for whatever reason. I have read about a lot of people asking their vets about glucosamine after the diagnosis and the vet agrees but doesn't bring it up initially. If you are happy with your vet otherwise, I think I'd let this one slide and tell him that you will be using Cosequin...

[Nikki+2]

Thank you Ladymom! I have been reading up on LP quite a bit but didn't know that the pain was caused solely from arthritis caused by LP. I think I'm going to ask my vet for a referral to University of FL and get this settled once and for all.

My vet is recommending surgery and I was 99.9% sure after his diagnosis at our last exam that that would be what we would do. What you posted is what my vet said and everything I've read online- that grade 3 and 4 require surgery, end of story. Then I poked around YT a bit and read several threads saying that is wasn't always the case. Wishful thinking I guess. It's just so hard to think about such a difficult surgery when he seems perfectly fine and happy. He's laying next to me now, sleeping and occasionally giving a little whine from his dental today. It's killing me and that is so minor compared to LP surgery. This sucks!

[Ladymom]

Originally Posted by Nikki+2

Thank you Ladymom! I have been reading up on LP quite a bit but didn't know that the pain was caused solely from arthritis caused by LP. I think I'm going to ask my vet for a referral to University of FL and get this settled once and for all.

My vet is recommending surgery and I was 99.9% sure after his diagnosis at our last exam that that would be what we would do. What you posted is what my vet said and everything I've read online- that grade 3 and 4 require surgery, end of story. Then I poked around YT a bit and read several threads saying that is wasn't always the case. Wishful thinking I guess. It's just so hard to think about such a difficult surgery when he seems perfectly fine and happy. He's laying next to me now, sleeping and occasionally giving a little whine from his dental today. It's killing me and that is so minor compared to LP surgery. This sucks!

I am glad you are going to take him to U of Florida. He will get great care there.

[Nikki+2]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

Blaming yourself for not researching isn't going to do any good now, so try to let it go. Sometimes vets just don't remember to mention things for whatever reason. I have read about a lot of people asking their vets about glucosamine after the diagnosis and the vet agrees but doesn't bring it up initially. If you are happy with your vet otherwise, I think I'd let this one slide and tell him that you will be using Cosequin...

Thanks Crystal. I did read up on LP when Gracie was first diagnosed but don't remember reading about supplements for it. Her's has stayed exactly the same since she was first diagnosed around a year old (now going on 6yrs) and from what I've read, often times if its genetic (which I believe to be the case with her) that it might not progress any further. I do watch her weight and her jumping and she is the only one of our 3 who I take on walks regularly so I thought I had her covered. I wasn't particularly overly concerned with Sugar, assuming it was grade 1. Now it kills me wondering if I had had him on glucosamine if it wouldn't have gotten to this point.

[Ladymom]

Originally Posted by Nikki+2

Thanks Crystal. I did read up on LP when Gracie was first diagnosed but don't remember reading about supplements for it. Her's has stayed exactly the same since she was first diagnosed around a year old (now going on 6yrs) and from what I've read, often times if its genetic (which I believe to be the case with her) that it might not progress any further. I do watch her weight and her jumping and she is the only one of our 3 who I take on walks regularly so I thought I had her covered. I wasn't particularly overly concerned with Sugar, assuming it was grade 1. Now it kills me wondering if I had had him on glucosamine if it wouldn't have gotten to this point.

Cosequin will help with arthritic changes from luxating patellas, but won't keep them from getting worse. LP's are a structural problem. The kneecap groove isn't deep enough so the kneecap slips in and out. They get worse from the wear and tear from jumping on and off furniture, etc. So don't beat yourself up.

[Nikki+2]

Originally Posted by Ladymom

Cosequin will help with arthritic changes from luxating patellas, but won't keep them from getting worse. LP's are a structural problem. The kneecap groove isn't deep enough so the kneecap slips in and out. They get worse from the wear and tear from jumping on and off furniture, etc. So don't beat yourself up.

Thank you- that actually makes me feel a lot better. I'm lucky that Sugar has never been able to jump on or off of furniture so I don't have that to worry about that aggravating it at least.

[wishies]

Originally Posted by Nikki+2

Thank you Ladymom! I have been reading up on LP quite a bit but didn't know that the pain was caused solely from arthritis caused by LP. I think I'm going to ask my vet for a referral to University of FL and get this settled once and for all.

My vet is recommending surgery and I was 99.9% sure after his diagnosis at our last exam that that would be what we would do. What you posted is what my vet said and everything I've read online- that grade 3 and 4 require surgery, end of story. Then I poked around YT a bit and read several threads saying that is wasn't always the case. Wishful thinking I guess. It's just so hard to think about such a difficult surgery when he seems perfectly fine and happy. He's laying next to me now, sleeping and occasionally giving a little whine from his dental today. It's killing me and that is so minor compared to LP surgery. This sucks!

definitely let us know if you go to UF for the LP, my riley has grade 2 LP and i give him cosequin hopefully it doesn't get worse.. i actually should just go to UF and see myself haha i live in gville!

[clarin]

i live in gainesville to ... my lola have lp grade 1. my question is :what
grade should i start Cosequin? what is Cosequin ? where can get it?
let us know what uf tell you. i hope your baby do will.

[clarin]

i google cosequin and find its . what you think?
www.springtimeinc.com/product/94/2