liver shunt #3 - Page 2 - YorkieTalk.com Forums

TLC · 05-03-2009, 07:34 AM

Yes that Royal Canin is an RX food. If he is used to dog food, then I would get him the Royal Canin LS 14 and keep him on that. It is made for this type of issue.

Home cooking is tricky. You would need to contact a Pet Nutritionist to get it balanced and calculated for his weight/issues/active levels, and being that he is shooting additional shunts, I wouldn't go that route. I would stick to the Royal Canin LS 14 (dry) and some L/D (wet). And that's it!

Treats can be romaine lettuce, watermelon, apple bits (no skin)

He needs to be on supplements to aid his Liver and Lactulose.

Please join this group:
DogLiverDisease : Dog Liver Disease

Ellie May · 05-03-2009, 10:10 AM

You could certainly homecooked for him and make it egg or possibly soy based but as Nicole said, it can be very tricky and a nutritonist would have to help you. Obviously he isn't doing too well on the liver diets though, so it is something to consider. If you decide to go that way, just make sure that the nutritionist that you choose has a lot of experience with this.

River · 05-03-2009, 01:58 PM

Many thanks to all of you that have responded to this topic!!!! You have all given me much to think about and many more questions to ask the vet! Thanks also for the vets names at U Penn, Cornell and UT. I will post on Wed after I see the Internist and let you know what she says. I feel more confident that I go armed with some pretty good questions. Thank you again!!

River · 05-13-2009, 07:32 PM

Sorry I haven't posted. I did take Indy to an Internal Medicine vet, but was disappointed with her advice. She felt that Indy didn't display any of the neurological symptoms yet that would require him to be on lactulose or antibiotics. She said that the things that the lactulose and antibiotics treat he doesn't have yet. I am to keep him on the low protein diet and re evaluate in 4 to 6 months. Also, she took blood to test it for ammonia levels. Normal range is from 0 to 98, his were 3. She said that the lactulose bonds with the ammonia in his gut and flushes it out of his system. Since he doesn't have any ammonia build up the lactulose won't do him any good. I hate that I have to wait til he's really sick before we can treat him. She said anything I do at this point, won't prevent the shunt from getting any bigger. But, on the bright side, I just got an email today from Dr. Center at Cornell and she is very interested in talking to me about Indy. I will be contacting her tomorrow. That's all I have for now. Just wanted to let everyone who gave me advice know what the Internal Medicine vet said.

bchgirl · 05-14-2009, 03:53 AM

The good news his ammonia levels are low...so his liver seems to be working. The better news is the email from Dr. Center. You're very fortunate to live so close to someone with tons of experience in this field.

DLJames · 05-15-2009, 10:51 AM

Let me know what you find out. I have a young female diagnosed with LS at just a few months. We opted not to have the surgery because the vet didn't think she was a good candidate because her liver appeared to be shriveled up. However, she has done pretty well by just maintaining her diet.

I would like to have discussions with someone else who lives with LS dog too. There seems to be cycles that she goes through, but I can't figure them out completely. If I could compare, I think I could improve her quality of life with more careful diet management during the low points and maybe even prevent them altogether. I will read more in this forum because this is the most informed group I've found so far.

Ellie May · 05-15-2009, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DLJames

Let me know what you find out. I have a young female diagnosed with LS at just a few months. We opted not to have the surgery because the vet didn't think she was a good candidate because her liver appeared to be shriveled up. However, she has done pretty well by just maintaining her diet.

I would like to have discussions with someone else who lives with LS dog too. There seems to be cycles that she goes through, but I can't figure them out completely. If I could compare, I think I could improve her quality of life with more careful diet management during the low points and maybe even prevent them altogether. I will read more in this forum because this is the most informed group I've found so far.

What food and supplements is she on?
Did Dr. Tobias say no surgery or another vet?

TLC · 05-15-2009, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DLJames

Let me know what you find out. I have a young female diagnosed with LS at just a few months. We opted not to have the surgery because the vet didn't think she was a good candidate because her liver appeared to be shriveled up. However, she has done pretty well by just maintaining her diet.

I would like to have discussions with someone else who lives with LS dog too. There seems to be cycles that she goes through, but I can't figure them out completely. If I could compare, I think I could improve her quality of life with more careful diet management during the low points and maybe even prevent them altogether. I will read more in this forum because this is the most informed group I've found so far.

Please join this group ~ tons more info and support for Liver Shunt Babies:
DogLiverDisease : Dog Liver Disease

bjh · 05-16-2009, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by River

That's interesting! I didn't know that about the LD food. Is Royal Canin a prescription also? I don't think I have ever heard of it. I have read some information and read posts here that some people actually cook for their dogs and make home made treats. That is such a neat idea, you would know for sure what he's getting. Where can you find recipes that support dogs with liver problems? I am beginning to think that I need to be more proactive with this because now I am going to have look at things for him in terms of life with a liver shunt, not "he's all better now". I want to do whatever I can for him.

I am just reading this thread. I am so sorry you boy is having liver shunt problems. I have heard that after liver shunt surgery they are more prone to MDV but I did not know they could develop more external shunts. Just out of curiosity, what vaccinations, if any did your boy have over the last few years? I was just curious if he had vaccinations that could be stressing out his liver. I do pray your boy does okay with proper diet.

DLJames · 05-16-2009, 04:04 PM

Emma is 3-1/2 years old and it was our vet who did not recommend the surgery. He recommended a Purina NF feed with the dry version having 3.5% protein. Wet has a little more and we rotate feedings of it, until she gets picky. She is currently in a "down" cycle and it seems we have more down days than up here lately. So that is why I have decided to get more pro-active with her diet. I visted the local Petco this morning and saw many versions of the Royal Canin but not the LS. If that is RX, where do you order from and I will get with my vet?

TLC · 05-16-2009, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DLJames

Emma is 3-1/2 years old and it was our vet who did not recommend the surgery. He recommended a Purina NF feed with the dry version having 3.5% protein. Wet has a little more and we rotate feedings of it, until she gets picky. She is currently in a "down" cycle and it seems we have more down days than up here lately. So that is why I have decided to get more pro-active with her diet. I visted the local Petco this morning and saw many versions of the Royal Canin but not the LS. If that is RX, where do you order from and I will get with my vet?

Yes from your Vet. PLEASE join that group I have posted above. They can help and guide you.

DLJames · 05-16-2009, 05:44 PM

Thanks. I am waiting for group to accept me now

River · 05-18-2009, 08:01 AM

More good news! I talked to Dr. Center on Fri and she is interested in Indy because he does not fit the norm for liver shunts. She wants me to get my surgeon to send her the piece of liver that he extracted and had biopsied for MVD the very first surgery he had. She also wants me to submit a blood sample to do a Protein C test, which I had never heard of. She said it was developed at Cornell to diagnose liver shunts as well as determine the probabliity of a dog developing more of them if surgery is performed. She tells me it is a very useful test in making determinations of liver shunts. She also told me not to consent to another surgery, which I wouldn't because even the vets that did the first 2 wouldn't do the 3rd one. She gave me hope that the Protein C test along with another look at the liver biopsy from surgery #1, can help in deciding the correct medical management for him and that depending on what the test shows, Indy could live a long relatively healthy life even with a shunt. She said she is beginning a liver shunt study and wants to include Indy in her study. Dr. Center also told me that the Ultrasound Vet that did all of Indy's ultrasounds is one of the best out there and that if he saw the third shunt that it was probably there. I felt very reassured about that too. I will keep you all posted as this all unfolds. I started today with a phone call to my surgeon to pave the way for Dr. Center to get the information she needs from him. Thanks again to all of you and especially to the person that gave me Dr. Center's name and contact info. I am grateful!!!

05-03-2009, 07:34 AM	#16
TLC Slave to My Rug-Rats Donating Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Long Island Posts: 7,247	Yes that Royal Canin is an RX food. If he is used to dog food, then I would get him the Royal Canin LS 14 and keep him on that. It is made for this type of issue. Home cooking is tricky. You would need to contact a Pet Nutritionist to get it balanced and calculated for his weight/issues/active levels, and being that he is shooting additional shunts, I wouldn't go that route. I would stick to the Royal Canin LS 14 (dry) and some L/D (wet). And that's it! Treats can be romaine lettuce, watermelon, apple bits (no skin) He needs to be on supplements to aid his Liver and Lactulose. Please join this group: DogLiverDisease : Dog Liver Disease __________________ Adopt Donate Foster www.yorkie911rescue.com Last edited by TLC; 05-03-2009 at 07:35 AM.

05-03-2009, 10:10 AM	#17
Ellie May And Rylee Finnegan Donating Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Metro Detroit, MI Posts: 17,928	You could certainly homecooked for him and make it egg or possibly soy based but as Nicole said, it can be very tricky and a nutritonist would have to help you. Obviously he isn't doing too well on the liver diets though, so it is something to consider. If you decide to go that way, just make sure that the nutritionist that you choose has a lot of experience with this. __________________ Crystal, Ellie May (RIP), Rylee Finnegan, and Gracie Boo🐶

05-14-2009, 03:53 AM	#20
bchgirl Donating YT 10K Club Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: at da beach Posts: 15,444 Blog Entries: 2	The good news his ammonia levels are low...so his liver seems to be working. The better news is the email from Dr. Center. You're very fortunate to live so close to someone with tons of experience in this field. __________________ Deb, Reese, Reggie, Frazier, Libby, Sidney, & Bodie Trace & Ramsey who watch over us www.biewersbythebay.com

05-15-2009, 10:51 AM	#21
DLJames YorkieTalk Newbie! Join Date: May 2009 Location: Gatesville, TX, USA Posts: 5	Hug for Indy Let me know what you find out. I have a young female diagnosed with LS at just a few months. We opted not to have the surgery because the vet didn't think she was a good candidate because her liver appeared to be shriveled up. However, she has done pretty well by just maintaining her diet. I would like to have discussions with someone else who lives with LS dog too. There seems to be cycles that she goes through, but I can't figure them out completely. If I could compare, I think I could improve her quality of life with more careful diet management during the low points and maybe even prevent them altogether. I will read more in this forum because this is the most informed group I've found so far.

05-16-2009, 04:04 PM	#25
DLJames YorkieTalk Newbie! Join Date: May 2009 Location: Gatesville, TX, USA Posts: 5	Emma Lou Emma is 3-1/2 years old and it was our vet who did not recommend the surgery. He recommended a Purina NF feed with the dry version having 3.5% protein. Wet has a little more and we rotate feedings of it, until she gets picky. She is currently in a "down" cycle and it seems we have more down days than up here lately. So that is why I have decided to get more pro-active with her diet. I visted the local Petco this morning and saw many versions of the Royal Canin but not the LS. If that is RX, where do you order from and I will get with my vet?

05-03-2009, 01:58 PM	#18
River Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: PA Posts: 188	Many thanks to all of you that have responded to this topic!!!! You have all given me much to think about and many more questions to ask the vet! Thanks also for the vets names at U Penn, Cornell and UT. I will post on Wed after I see the Internist and let you know what she says. I feel more confident that I go armed with some pretty good questions. Thank you again!!

05-13-2009, 07:32 PM	#19
River Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: PA Posts: 188	Sorry I haven't posted. I did take Indy to an Internal Medicine vet, but was disappointed with her advice. She felt that Indy didn't display any of the neurological symptoms yet that would require him to be on lactulose or antibiotics. She said that the things that the lactulose and antibiotics treat he doesn't have yet. I am to keep him on the low protein diet and re evaluate in 4 to 6 months. Also, she took blood to test it for ammonia levels. Normal range is from 0 to 98, his were 3. She said that the lactulose bonds with the ammonia in his gut and flushes it out of his system. Since he doesn't have any ammonia build up the lactulose won't do him any good. I hate that I have to wait til he's really sick before we can treat him. She said anything I do at this point, won't prevent the shunt from getting any bigger. But, on the bright side, I just got an email today from Dr. Center at Cornell and she is very interested in talking to me about Indy. I will be contacting her tomorrow. That's all I have for now. Just wanted to let everyone who gave me advice know what the Internal Medicine vet said.

05-16-2009, 05:44 PM	#27
DLJames YorkieTalk Newbie! Join Date: May 2009 Location: Gatesville, TX, USA Posts: 5	Emma Thanks. I am waiting for group to accept me now

05-18-2009, 08:01 AM	#28
River Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: PA Posts: 188	More good news! I talked to Dr. Center on Fri and she is interested in Indy because he does not fit the norm for liver shunts. She wants me to get my surgeon to send her the piece of liver that he extracted and had biopsied for MVD the very first surgery he had. She also wants me to submit a blood sample to do a Protein C test, which I had never heard of. She said it was developed at Cornell to diagnose liver shunts as well as determine the probabliity of a dog developing more of them if surgery is performed. She tells me it is a very useful test in making determinations of liver shunts. She also told me not to consent to another surgery, which I wouldn't because even the vets that did the first 2 wouldn't do the 3rd one. She gave me hope that the Protein C test along with another look at the liver biopsy from surgery #1, can help in deciding the correct medical management for him and that depending on what the test shows, Indy could live a long relatively healthy life even with a shunt. She said she is beginning a liver shunt study and wants to include Indy in her study. Dr. Center also told me that the Ultrasound Vet that did all of Indy's ultrasounds is one of the best out there and that if he saw the third shunt that it was probably there. I felt very reassured about that too. I will keep you all posted as this all unfolds. I started today with a phone call to my surgeon to pave the way for Dr. Center to get the information she needs from him. Thanks again to all of you and especially to the person that gave me Dr. Center's name and contact info. I am grateful!!!