Rosemary extract and seizures
 

Does any one care to share information regarding rosemary extract in dog food and treats as a seizure trigger?
Are there other known or suspected seizure triggers that I should be aware of?
Also, is there any known correlation between rosemary extract and glucose/blood sugar levels.
I am trying to gather this information so I can talk to Winston's vet about it.
Thank you in advance for any and all information I may receive.

I have heard about the connection between rosemary and seizures but I'm not sure that a reliable source is relaying it. The same goes for nutmeg. Maybe someone from YT could contact the ASPCA about this. They seem to be the authority on toxic food and pets.

Kathy...go spend some time reading around this website:

Canine epilepsy and diseases that cause seizures in dogs

Yes, there is a connection with rosemary and seizures according to that site. You can search from the top of the page for rosemary and it will bring up any of the articles and info they have on it. There is so much to learn on that site...it's amazing.

Yes, there is a link between rosemary and seizures. If you start reading labels, it is amazing how many dog food products contain rosemary, including Petzlife. ::(

PetzLife Products Inc - Products For a Healthier Pet

Hmmm, nutmeg too? I've been reading a lot and have not seen mention of this, although I do believe nutmeg is related to glucose levels. Thanks for your input. May have to contact the ASPCA...it's a thought.

Yes, I have spent a great portion of my day today on that very website...so much to learn...and yes I do see the connection. Just wondered if any one had any personal experience with "Rosemary" and there pets with seizures. I imagine it would be nearly impossible to prove though. How about glucose levels...I'm thinking there is a connection there as well. All the vets I have taken Winston to say it's hypoglycemic seizures not epileptic. I may have to check once again for another opinion...maybe a Neurologist instead of Internist this time.

I have been checking labels...it's both sad and scary at the same time.
Thanks for the information of PetzLife, I don't use it myself...but I know many that do.

What about your cleaning supplies? It does say on that site that Pine Sol causes seizures. Do you have laminate or wood floors that you use anything on? Are the seizures predictable as far as when they come...like so many days apart each time? Are you doing or using or doing anything that you can even remotely connect with his seizures? That might be a place to start if you can definitely rule out hypoglicemia. I believe it also says somewhere on that site that hypoglicemia can be caused from the dog not being able to process protein properly...but you might want to double check that point...it's been a while since I read about that. I read the list of chemicals that can trigger seizures and it was overwhelming...can't imagine how many things those chemicals might be in.

Winston is having seizures, right?
What has been ruled out and how?
What is the diagnosis?

No hard wood or laminate floors all carpet except the bathroom. I saw that about Pine Sol, but I don't use it. The only thing predictable about his seizures is the fact that they always happen on the weekends, nights or holidays...just like a baby, huh? My reasoning for this is that he is more active when we are home with him...during the work week he is confined to the kitchen and I'm sure he just sleeps 99% of the time. So while he's sleeping he is conserving energy/sugar...and it's natural for the body/liver to produce more glucose at rest...to prepare for the bodies need of sugar while awake. But comes a day when we are off work...he runs and plays, hard....that is when it happens.
From what I have read a true epileptic seizure does not last as long as Winston's do...it comes on all of a sudden, although he does try to get to me first, I give him NutriCal and within 20-30 minutes he's come out of it, and most of the time vomits. But a seizure I understand usually only last from a few seconds to a few minutes.
They do not seem to coincide with flea prevention, heartworm medicine or vaccines.
I questioned the possibility of thunderstorms, but that isn't the case either.
Winston is now 5 years old and 8 pounds, he has been having this same problem since he was 3 years old and 7 pounds. Everything points to low blood sugar, but why???
Keep the thoughts and ideas coming, I'm open to any and all suggestions.

Is there a treat that he gets on the days you're home? Maybe he's just using his food up faster while he's playing. Do you make sure he takes time out for a snack and rest a little when you're home? What about taking him for a walk...maybe that would burn off some of his energy in a more constructive way.

Does he have allergies? They can cause seizures too. I don't know what you feed Winston but there is a very good diet on that site for epi dogs...maybe give it a try and see if it makes a difference in him. Otherwise a visit to a neurologist might be in order.

Oh, instead of the nutrical try the Hagendaz vanilla ice cream like they suggest on the site...it works more efficiently in their system and doesn't give the high and low that nutrical does.

On the average these episodes happen a couple times a month...they look like a seizure to me, but he does not come out of it on his own...he only comes out of it after being given glucose, such as NutriCal or Karo syrup.
The first time this happened, I just happened to be home sick myself during the week...I rushed him to the vets, which is only a couple blocks from my house. Their first thought was heat stroke, but it was March in Illinois it was not that hot. They rushed him back and started him on IV's, the only thing they found out of the ordinary was a dangerously low glucose reading of 25. They kept him in CCU until he was able to eat on his own and his sugar didn't drop. So, then we were trying to find a reason for this, I told her there were toadstool type mushrooms in our yard, I usually try to destroy them but they pop up overnight and maybe I missed one...maybe he tried to eat one. She did some checking and found hypoglycemia was a symptom of ingesting these. So we thought that was that and I'd have to be more careful with him outside. But then the seizures continued.
Testing: Complete Chemistry
Complete Blood Count
Fecal Test
Urinalysis
Glucose Tolerance
Thyroid Profile
Bile Acid Testing
Cortisol Test
Liver Profile
Electrolyte Test
Lipid Profile
Chest X-ray
KUB-Abdomen X-ray
Ct Scan Chest
Ct scan Abdomen
I guess that's it, any suggestions?
My regular vet referred him to a vet in Internal Medicine, her suggestions were...to put him back on puppy food, frequent small feedings, 6 times a day. Check his blood sugar at home at the very first sign of a seizure (it's always low) and immediately after a seizure (most always a low normal). Possible liver biopsy for glycogen storage, which I have not done. May need hypoglycemic agent, which I have not done.
He is also on (Valium) diazepam 2.5mg twice a day. It was suggested to try Prednisone...as it has the side effect of raising ones blood sugar...but I would rather not use this if at all possible.
Insulinoma was pondered, but ruled out, due to his age at the time, breed and testing done thus far. All of the vets he has seen so far, and he's been seen by several, think it is not epileptic seizures, but hypoglycemic seizures.
So that brings us up to date on Winston...his last episode was January 10th.

Winston's food is the only thing I have found that he will eat consistently...and that is Science Diet. We have tried others, but he'll skip meals...which he can't do. The last one was some prescription food that was suppose to keep his sugar at a more stable level...but he hated it. Unfortunately, I have thrown it away and do not remember the name...it was something I had never heard of before. He has also tried Natural Balance and Solid Gold. Home cooking is a thought, but I'm really not a nutritionist and I fear he will not get what he needs.
There is no way that ice cream will work, he is completely seizing, he has no control and is totally unable to eat any thing, then there's the risk of aspiration too. I have to open his mouth, insert my finger and rub NutriCal on the roof of his mouth...it's the only way. The ice cream could come later, after seizing, to stabilize the sugar level I suppose. But he almost always vomits afterwards and I have a hard time getting him to eat anything then.
I remember someone told me once to give Breyers All Natural ice cream after an episode...nope, he didn't want it.

Winston had another episode today, it started at 4:20 pm and lasted about 20 minutes. I'm beginning to feel so hopeless and helpless, I could just cry...

Kathy...I'm sorry to hear about Winston. Maybe it's time to make an appointment with a neurologist and see if they can help.

This does seem really odd.
It has be something about his sugar levels or it wouldn't be low.
There must be something causing it or a reason his sugar is always down.:confused: I"ve personally never heard of anything like it. And what a list of tests that have been done.:eek:

While I'm not really recommending homecooking because I don't know if it will help or hurt the problem, you can talk to a nutritionist and the recipe would be balanced.

While the internist wants to check for certain things, if those tests came (like glycogen storage) come back abnormal, what would the diagnosis be? So he seizes until he gets sugar? And then starts coming out of it? Have you tried canned food? If SD is the only thing he will eat, that's what I'd be feeding.

Never mind on what the diagnosis would be/what they are looking for. I think I found it.

Yes I found him today under the kitchen table, in a corner, laying on his side, stiff, yet trembling...panting, drooling, eyes unable to focus, at this point he is totally helpless, he can not sit or stand, although sometimes he does manage to roll. Picked him up, rubbed NutriCal on the roof of his mouth, I find this easier and quicker then the gums, poked his little paw for a drop of blood. Wrapped him in a warm blanket and waited. His glucose level was 28...Held him and talked to him, made him feel secure until he finally comes around, still not too sure footed and shaky but able to get up and move around, took about 20 minutes.
The thing about the liver biopsy for glycogen storage disease doesn't make sense to me...if this is what he has...he would be dead by now.
Have you heard of hunting dog syndrome or white shaker dog syndrome? These sound more like what happens to him. Guess I'll just keep doing what I'm doing, try to keep him as calm and relaxed as possible, feed him often...hope and pray for the best.
Nutrition: What would be a good dog food with high carbohydrate, low protein, and low fat. What would you feed for treats? Is cornstarch okay for dogs? I've read they give this for humans with this problem. Guess I'm just grasping at straws...always searching for an answer, yet, never finding it. Why did this start at the age of 3 instead of as a puppy? I really do not think it's epilepsy. Would you consider Prednisone, as it raise glucose levels, I've always had a fear of this for personal reasons. Thanks Ellie May or are you Crystal?

Oh, dear. Poor, poor Winston.

Lady has been epileptic for nine years and what you are describing doesn't sound like an epileptic seizure. The seizure itself can lower blood sugar, but you said his BG is low before he seizes.

I would certainly not advise prednisone long term as it can cause other problems like diabetes and Cushings disease.

What do you feed him now? Lady is is also a Type I diabetic and gets insulin twice a day. Diabetics need a higher fiber diet to keep insulin levels stable. Since you have certainly been through all the tests and consulted a specialist, I think I would almost try to see if you can control his seizures with a change of diet. My first preference would be homecooked, but if that's not doable, there are a couple of commercial diets available that are high in fiber and lowfat that work well for diabetic dogs. It certainly would be worth trying to see if a high fiber diet could prevent his crashes.

Science Diet® Results

Nature's Recipe Senior Lamb Meal & Rice Recipe - Food Center - Dog - PetSmart

How many meals per day does Winston get or is he free-fed?

It's best if you can give several small meals per day so that you can keep his blood glucose levels stable...Free-feeding is not best for these situations, in my opinion because you cannot control how often or how much they are eating.

Prayers for Winston...this must be so hard for you..not knowing what's wrong with him...

I agree that consulting a canine nutritionist would be a good idea.

gosh, i am so sorry!! :( i am not much help! :( but just wanted to say i hope you figure this out, soon.. we are praying for sweet lil Winston!! :hands:

Thanks for caring and thanks for the advise. I can't say for certain that his sugar is low before a seizure...only that it is during and still is after the seizure. The specialist recommended he eat puppy food, so that is what I feed him...but it is Science Diet, as that is the only thing he will eat consistently. I can't leave him to eat when he gets hungry enough...he will definitely have an episode.
I too have put off the Prednisone as I hate the side effects, when using it long term. The specialist also mentioned a hypoglycemic agent...do not know what she was referring to there.
We feed him 6 times a day, canned food...and yes, his dry food is out all the time.
My vet also knows how I feel about weight gain...he's around 8 pounds and kind of pudgy...not lean at all. I feel like I am constantly feeding him and trying to keep him from running around too much, to try to avoid the seizures, but even then it does not always work.
I've thought of giving something like ice cream, between meals, but I fear a rebound low blood sugar. I just want to get it up and keep it up, without the risks of it falling all the time. Frustrating...Thanks again...

I just may need to find a nutritionist for him, Lord knows I've tried everything else...
Thank you so much for your kind words and prayers...Winston and I both appreciate it very much.

How sweet of you, this is just such a strange thing...and I hate not being able to prevent these from happening. The prayers truly do mean so very much, thank you...really.

Have you or your vet ever done a glucose curve to chart Winston's fluctuations in blood glucose throughout the day? We do it with our diabetic dogs, but it might be helpful in Winston's case.

Here is some information:

Blood Glucose Curves in the Diagnosis & Regulation of Diabetes in Dogs

BD Diabetes - Learning Center - Caring for a Pet with Diabetes - Diabetes in Dogs - Monitoring Your Dog - Blood Glucose Curves

You can make your own curve in Excel:

Pet Diabetes - Anne's Excel Instructions for Canine Blood Glucose Curve

Blood glucose normally drops during a seizure, so perhaps hypoglycemia isn't the cause, but rather the effect of the seizure?

Have you discussed putting Winston on an anti-seizure medication? If he keeps having seizures for whatever reason, they will become more frequent because of a phenomenon called "kindling".

Kindling is the experimental phenomenon whereby repeated stimulation of the brain can eventually induce a chronic epileptic state that persists after the stimulation is stopped.

The underlying mechanisms of kindling are incompletely understood but involve changes in the electrical behavior of a group of brain cells. This may be related to alterations of chemical receptors (specifically what are called NMDA subtype of glutamate receptors) and changes in how these brain cells connect with each other through structures called synapses.

In a sense, by having repeated seizure the brain "learns" how to have seizures. Think about how a young child learning to write their name has to concentrate when printing each letter. After doing this over and over, we become able to quickly write our name without even thinking about the intricate hand movements involved. Obviously there is some change in our brain that allows this to happen, but it does not have to be a structural lesion.

I think of kindling as something similar. The brain is doing what it is designed to do...learn. It is just learning to do something harmful like have a seizure.

WB Thomas, DVM
Dipl. ACVIM (Neurology)
University of Tennessee
Knoxville, TN

Canine Epilepsy-Frequently asked questions about the diagnosis, treatment and management of seizures in dogs

No I really have not ever done a curve...I do know, even without an episode the vet has checked it, and it's low...but not dangerous...like in the 70's.
At one time she did want to do "Insulin levels" on him...amazingly enough he fasted all night and the entire next day...at the vets...and his sugar never dropped below 60. But he was in a kennel all day. She said that it had to be low to get proper readings...I don't know why. She seems to think that he produces too much insulin...where I tend to believe he uses too much glucose.
At the very beginning of his problems, I too wondered which came first the low blood sugar or the seizure...but after witnessing his episodes, I do not think they are epileptic in nature and neither does the vets. But he has not seen a Neurologist. Do they do EEG's/brain waves on dogs? Yes, we've talked about trying anti-seizure meds on him...but they don't think it will help.
I guess the next step will have to be a nutritionist and a neurologist...hopefully I'll be able to find one around here...and maybe come to a conclusion. Thanks for all the info!!!

Kathy...how far are you from Champaigne? U. of I. has their vet school there...you might see what they have available. I'd be glad to help you search around there if you need it.

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Please go get a CT scan of your doggie. This will rule out many other possible diseases or defects such as Hydrocephalus or tumors. I used to be a vet tech and had a similar prob with my dog, a chihuahua mix.
Also, I would suggest an ultrasound of his liver, gall bladder and pancreas.

Later in my dog's life, he starting getting crusty ears and feet and was licking all the time.
Several vet's mocked me and said it was just allergies and put him on tons of meds. I knew it was not and I knew he was not himself. His health only declined.

I went to the State Vet hospital and got some proper testing done.

The vet's finally diagnosed him with Hepatocutaneous syndrome. He had only been on Phenobarbital for 6 months for the seizures many years prior to that.
The whole Vet community here, was stumped b/c it seemed that the disease progressed backward.

There could have been microtumors in the pancreas, but I think he was a diabetic for a while and misdiagnosed.

In the end, he was on NPH insulin (a 12 hour insulin) three times a day. He got better after all the aminos and supplements. Unfortunatly, he never recovered from the liver/ pancreatic biopsy and I had to put him down.

Please don't put your dog on Prednisone or any anti seizure drugs. get him THOROUGHLY tested for hypoglycemia and diabetes. These drugs will do more harm than good in the long run.

Try cooking him chicken and rice for a few weeks to see if he has ANY food allergies. Check out milk thistle as well, to clear his liver and gall bladder of any toxins.
Make sure he isn't overweight.

Next time he is seizing, there is a pressure point under the base of his tail. Apply steady medium pressure (5 seconds on and 5 seconds off) until he stops seizing.
This sounds weird; although, it worked wonders for my dog. Keep a rigid seizure chart.....date, time, length.

Get second and third opinions from vets. If they are not open minded about diet and supplements and ONLY wish to put him on meds, I would see that as a red flag.

That small amount of rosemary (it is usually the LAST ingrediant) shouldn't trigger seizures; however, I would really try cooking his food for awhile to rule out any and all allergens.

The best and cheapest places for these sorts of tests (CT scan should run around $500.00) is your local teaching Vet hospital. Ultrasounds vary on price. Insist on these tests and blood tests. Some vets just don't care to figure it out.

All the research I have done about my dog, points to the fact that he wasn't absorbing any protein and aminos properly. Go to your local health food store and get him on an egg protein powder with almost zero or no sugar and massive amounts of aminos to see if this helps.

My dog lived 6 months longer than they expected due to my research and I hope any and all of this info might help you.

I could be way off base, but just in case, I wanted to share my research with you.

Vitamin d3, MSM, probiotics and ester C are good support too!

Best of luck! Contact me if you have any more questions
silverhawk82003@yahoo.com

Innova has Rosemary Extract! :eek:

yes my maltese had a petit mal from rosemary chicken 12 hrs after eating it and she is perfectly healthy so i try to steer clear of that ingredient in dog foods even though many have it and a few maltese on my maltese group once stopping the rosemary in dog food the dog stopped having seizures