Low Titer Again?
 

Ellie just had titers for distemper and parvo.
She was low on distemper last year, so we boosted.
This year she is fine on parvo but low on distemper again.
It is right on the line 1:32, so the vet is fine not boosting but thinks we are going to have to do it every other year.

I am not happy with this at all.
Why does it keep going down?
Ideally we should titer 2 or 3 weeks after vaccination to see what her body does with it but that is pouring money into a test that I don't really care about.

I was talking about how titers are a thorn in my side and she agreed that Ellie could have cellular immunity with a titer of zero and be protected. The only way to know is through challenge study which of course isn't happening.

So anyway, why low two years in a row?
Even those who follow Dr. Dodd's protocol are told to titer and I don't think this should always be going down. Thoughts?:confused:

My understanding is that titers are still not reliable enough. Unless somethings changed in the past year or so, I personally would not trust them.

I am waiting on the rabies challange to set new standards for rabies shots.
For the rest I hope they make titers more reliable.

JL

If she's had multiple distemper vaccines and isn't mounting a response, I'd call her a "non-responder", hope she has cellular immunity and just not bother again.

Have you thought about contacting a veterinarian well versed with titers (ie. Dr. Ron Schultz or Dr. Jean Dodds themselves) to see what their recommendations are?

Interesting side note - Two of my three didn't respond to the distemper vaccine, yet their parvo titers were sky high. (They were vaccinated as puppies and their titers were checked when they were roughly a year old).

YorkieMother - Where did you hear that titers are unreliable?
The vaccine isn't a sure thing either (obviously, since Ellie and my kids have all been vaccinated and didn't respond well), at least with titers you have more of an idea how their system is responding instead of automatically assuming they're protected.

Any vet I have chatted to either holistic or not do not at this time think they are reliable enough. So at this time the count is 5.... and as I aware of this until someone can prove other wise and I open to learn I not trusting them.

That said we have a cat that reacts badly to one shot that they get the both dog and cat freindly shot, only it is not cat freindly at all so we will not be giving her any at her age the risk of the shot out wieghts the illness as she never goes out and she long in the tooth.

We have problems around kennel cough shot and it effectivness here but I not spending more money on something else that not going to to my understanding give me hard evidence.

JL

To me, titers are a wsate of time and money but that is the best that there is right now and it is a compromise. After the body fights the invader (in this case distemper vaccine), ther is no reason for the antibody level to stay high, so it drops and we see a low titer. But a titer of zero doesn't take into account cellular immunity and the dog could still be totally protected.

I understand why people wouldn't want to titer because of this but I want to be cooperative and not say, "No vaccines ever again" because although I would be happy with that, it is still in the beginnings of research.

I think what is happening is her body fights it off right away, so the antibody level drops. Now I am stuck though because I'm sure she is protected but even going by Dr. Dodd's protocol, revaccination is indicated if the titer is low. So what do you do with a dog whose titer won't stay high?

I'm sure the answer is just stop titering and stop vaccinating but that really isn't a fair compromise for the vet... How is she supposed to really know if Ellie is protected?

According to Dr. Terafaj, titers are completely unreliable unless the exact same lab and lab person reads them every single time. She does not recommend re-vaccinating once the annual booster has been given. Research is showing lifetime immunity even with a low titer. She is the vet at Founder's Clinic in CA and has great information regarding this.

I do think that since you titered last year and then gave another booster, this is a fair compromise to the vet. And, unless Ellie is always outside and exposed to lots of other animals on a regular basis, her chances of picking up distemper are low to begin with. The bottom line is your call and the vet should respect that.

I am conflicted right along with you Crystal. And see, technically - I should be getting Wylie titered right now - but after my recent post about titering (you and me posted a bit back and forth there too), I'm still wondering why should I? Because I'm not sure I'd vaccinate if the titer was on the cusp - and titers are unreliable anyway - and differ from lab to lab. So, do you just assume immunity based on what's currently been proven about DOI (we trust it in humans, why don't we in dogs?) - or titer and then wonder, as you are?

This pretty much captures where I lean. :thumbup:

[QUOTE=LuvMySissy;2302233]According to Dr. Terafaj, titers are completely unreliable unless the exact same lab and lab person reads them every single time.
QUOTE]

Well well well look at that maybe I was not as far off base as I thought.

JL

The current research on DOI is something that I totally agree with but even with the challenge studies, they haven't gone much farther than 7 years. We can assume (and it is a fair assumption) that a dog is covered for life after being vaccination when the immune system is fully mature just like humans and MLV vaccines but it is sstill an assumption.

Titers are looking more and more like a waste of money to me, so I don't know what I am going to do next year.

Ellie's vet's concerne is that the research is still in the lab stage and it is too early to tell if the findings are correct. While they probably are, she doesn't want to take that kind of chance.

I ultimately do have the say so but I do value her opinion very much and maybe I am missing something.

I think I am stiill back at Dr. Dodds saying to titer and revaccinate if needed. She is an expert on this, so why is she saying to revaccinate for no reason?

Such a valid question. It's like Dr. Dodd is almost saying 2 things at once -- "yes, there is lifetime immunity - but yes, titer and revax if low anyway" -- where does that leave anyone? I guess with making their own choices, ugh.

Maybe you should email her....

I'm glad you're seeing this. lol
There are obviously a lot of dogs like Ellie who have a low titer after a year and there is no reason to keep vaccinating. I guess some dogs' antibody levels stay up for life, so their titers are high but it isn't fair to those who don't.:rolleyes:

I had emailed her about something else a long time ago and I don't want to keep bothering her. I would like the answer to this though. She will probably say to titer 3 weeks after vaccinating to see if it took and then don't think about it for a few years but then we go back to the we don't know if she is covered debate.:rolleyes:

I wonder if "KrisChristine" knows her personally and could find out :rolleyes: hmmmm. Not that money is everything, but titers aren't cheap either - and telling folks to titer and titer and titer doesn't increase confidence in the fact that these vax DO provide lifetime (7yrs) immunity - it's creating more doubt, actually.

So my real question to her would be "what is causing us to doubt the lifetime/7-year immunity to the extent that titers are so avidly recommended" -- ya know? :p

YES! That's it. I think you just pinned down what the issue is. Why are titers so important yet we are supposed to believe these things last a lifetime? That might be one of Ellie's vet's issues with the whole thing too (don't know for sure). There are so many opinions even among people that don't think yearly vaccines are right. I think Dr. Schultz skips the titers on his own dogs and just vaccinates once or twice. Why is Dr. Dodds so adament about titers though? I hope she sees this and comes to answer.;)

And that is a great thought. Kris is a member here. She might be able to find out for us. I will PM and email her the link to this thread.:)

Oh, great!! I bet she has connections that could help bring some clarification. I hope so! :)

Greetings!

Crystal, thank you for contacting me about this thread, I'm happy to try to answer some of these questions. If you can't find what you're looking for in the material linked, I'll contact Dr. Dodds and Dr. Schultz for further information.

The links below with quotes (in maroon) from Dr. Ronald Schultz and Dr. W. Jean Dodds contain more information on this subject. I've taken out some salient quotes to answer the questions in this thread.

What Everyone Needs to Know about Canine Vaccines, Dr. Ronald Schultz What Everyone Needs to Know About Canine Vaccines

An antibody titer no matter how low shows the animal has immunologic memory since memory effector B cells must be present to produce that antibody. Some dogs without antibody are protected from disease because they have T cell memory, that will provide cell mediated immunity (CMI). CMI will not protect from reinfection, but it will prevent disease. When an animal is antibody negative it may have T cell immunologic memory, but I generally consider a CDV antibody negative dog not to be protected, therefore, I recommend revaccination!.

36. Are serum antibody titres useful in determining vaccine immunity?

Yes - Especially for CDV, CPV-2 and CAV-1 in the dog, FPV in the cat and rabies virus in the cat and dog. Serum antibody titres are of limited or no value for the other vaccines. Assays for CMI are of little or no value for any of the vaccines for various technical and biological reasons.

Such factors are less of an issue for serological tests where it is much easier to control many of the variables. However, discrepant results are still obtained, depending on the quality assurance program of the given laboratory.

In the quote above, CDV stands for canine distemper, CPV-2 is parvo, and CAV-1 is adenovirus (hepatitis). The vaccines protecting against these 3 canine diseases are all modified live virus vaccines -- a human equivalent would be the modified (weakened) live polio vaccine.

There is an interesting article on veterinary vaccines which you can read in its entirety at the link below.

Are Our Pets Being Overvaccinated, by Melissa Burden, The Press
Are our pets being over-vaccinated?

(Dr. W. Jean Dodds) “But there is really no breed that is not at risk,” she said. The only vaccination needed, she asserts, is the rabies vaccine because it is legally required. Dogs’ and cats’ immune systems mature fully at 6 months old, she explained. If canine distemper, feline distemper and parvovirus vaccines are given after 6 months, a pet has immunity for the rest of its life.

(Dr. Robert Rogers) “Dogs and cats no longer need to be vaccinated against distemper, parvo, and feline leukemia every year,” Rogers said. “Once the initial series of puppy or kitten vaccinations and first annual vaccinations are completed, immunity…persists for life. Not only are annual boosters for parvo and distemper unnecessary, they subject the pet to the potential risk of adverse reactions, he added.

I hope this has helped to answer some questions. It's interesting to draw the analogy with human vaccination -- has anyone had their physician or pediatrician suggest they have a titer to see if they are still protected against polio or measles, mumps, etc...? The 2003 American Animal Hospital Canine Vaccine Guidelines (Special Report ) state that: "There is no indication that the immune system of canine patients functions in any way different from the human immune system. "

Kris

Thanks so much Kris.

Inquiring minds need to know these things. ;)

Now for more questions. Dr. Schultz says an antibody negative dog should be revaccinated for CDV. How low can the titer go before needing to do this? 1:0? 1:1? Then I am reading that Dr. Dodds says a dog vaccinated after the immune system is fully mature doesn't need revaccination but then why are we titering? Why recommend titers when it is thought that the DOI is lifelong? It just seems a bit confusing to say yes we should titer and vaccinate when the titers are low and then at the same time say that if they are vaccinated (MLV) after 6 months, they never need to be again.:confused: And then I am hearing that Dr. Schultz thinks these things last for life but says if there is a very low CDV titer, revaccinate. How can it go both ways?

What are we missing?

THANKS KRIS!!! :D :D :D :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Okay, well - then from the quotes above, I'm thinking I won't titer going forward. I should be confident that me boys are protected, really. Yes? :)

I don't think so because Dr. Schultz says if he has a non-existent distemper titer, he revaccinates.

I am thinking Ellie's vet is absolutely correct. It is just too early for anyone to be able to say anything is 100% sure. If immunity is lifelong 100% of the time, why would Dr. Schultz revaccinate for a non-existent CDV antibody level?

Yes, now I see what you're saying. Then, their quotes above actually DON'T add up to me.

Then the vaccines, to my mind, may NOT provide reliable lifetime immunity if we're expected to titer and re-vax.

Really frustrating. Foot on both sides of the fence here!

Ellie May,

Dr. Schultz's quote says that for canine distemper (CDV) if the dog is antibody negative, which would be 1:0, then he recommends revaccination. He does not recommend revaccination for a low titer count, only a negative one. I know from speaking with him that if there is no antibody titer count after a second vaccination, then he would consider the dog to be a non-responder to that particular vaccine and would see no point to revaccinating a third time. (Wolf hybrids are considered non-responders to the rabies vaccine.)

Ultimately, we all have to make decisions for our precious ones based on our own personal comfort levels, and titers can help us with those decisions. Let me give you an example from our family's experience. After his 1 year rabies booster, Butter suffered severe, life-threatening seizures for months. When he was due for his 3 year booster, our vet said he qualified for a medical exemption. Because rabies is endemic in our area (literally in our backyard), we chose to have a rabies titer done, and when his came back at 1:28, which we felt was too low despite the fact that the World Health Organization deems 1:5 as conferring immunity for humans, and we had him boostered.

It's interesting that we don't have our children titered after vaccination, and thus do not have the anxiety associated with making booster choices. Part of the reason for that is there is much more epidemiological vigilance with human vaccines than with veterinary vaccines.

Ditto.
It can't be both ways and as much as I hate vaccines, I hate distemper more.

I wonder if Dr. Schultz could explain why he says that they probably provide lifelong immunity but then he sees dogs that have been vaccinated with low titers and he thinks they need it again. Unless he is saying what he would do if he saw a low CDV but has never actually seen that? Maybe he has never seen a CDV go below 1:1?

Kris, we need you back!

What is a non-responder? Is it that there are no antibodies (but there is cellular immunity) or does it mean no immunity at all?

This is APPALLING! :mad:

Then the REAL issue that we should also be fighting for like MAD RABID DOGS is more stringent, reliable manufacturing of canine vaccines.

I mean, where is the weakest link that is making them less reliable than human vaccines?

Well, since Dr. Schultz would revaccinate a dog with a titer of 1:0, I feel like I have a responsibility to Ellie to make sure hers doesn't go that low because that is the best information we have right now. If I had to make the decision right now, we would continue to titer.

Crystal,

Sorry for not realizing that Ellie May is your little one! It is my understanding that a non-responder is an animal which produces no antibodies after vaccination -- i.e., they do not respond to vaccination.

Dr. Schultz told me that for his own dogs, if there is any antibody count after vaccination for distemper, hepatitis, and parvo, and he would never vaccinate his dogs again for those diseases. This is his quote from What Everyone Needs to Know about Canine Vaccines, Dr. Ronald Schultz What Everyone Needs to Know About Canine Vaccines "My own dogs, those of my children and grandchildren are vaccinated with MLV CDV, CPV-2, CPI, andCAV-2 vaccines once as puppies after the age of 12 weeks. An antibody titer is performedtwo or more weeks later and if found positive our dogs are never again vaccinated. I have used this vaccination program with modifications (CAV-2 replaced CAV-1 vaccines in 1970's and CPV-2 vaccines were first used in 1980) since 1974! I have never had one of our dogs develop CDV,CAV-1 or CPV-2 even though they have had exposure to many dogs, wildlife and to virulent CPV-2 virus. You may say that I have been lucky, but it is not luck that protects my dogs, it is immunologic memory."

Dr. Schultz has 7 dogs.

Kris

Wow - thank you for your clarification and your resources!!! They are very helpful to those of us choosing to not continue vaccinating.

You're more than welcome, Jodie! I'm happy to share my vaccine information and am so grateful that the dog lovers here generously share their experiences and information on subjects like homecooked food and allergies that we're currently struggling with Butter over.

Kris

Okay, thank you. This makes sense then. A vaccine is given and 1 titer is done 2 or 3 weeks later...not years down the road. Ellie's titer did go higher this year after CDV vaccination last year, so I'm sure she is protected then.

All research with dogs is behind the eight ball not just yearly shots. "We" did not do the leg work as we live with them so we know them.
It is no different than working training or aggression or what is proper socialization... we think what we have been told or old wives tales or has been around is fact when the facts are not there.
We stick to old like glue as it been so ingrained it is not funny.

So we think dogs need shots all the time as it always been that way and no real research been done. till now and now we have to pull teeth to make changes.
We all think Dogs are little wolves so we must feed them and train them as such and no research till now was been done. Now we can not even in the face of facts let go what we learned as youngen and take on what is the research shows.

I see it daily in dog training Alpha rules and what is and should be gets slammed.
We are just understanding that the same metal health concerns we has humans have hit our dog and the same ways to help us help them.
That their little brains may not function far off ours and they feel far more then we think but dogs are still thought to feel no pain or have feelings or think unless we tell them too.

Dr Dodds is the same person many send blood tests too I think for thyroid concerns casuing agresion. Actually my next step.

"we" is in quotes as I do not me we are you and I but we as a group world we.

JL