First trip to the vet - concerns!

[KissKiss]

Tia had her first vet check yesterday for her vaccinations. He said that when she has completed the full course of vaccinations she will be protected from 7 illness. I asked whether Lepto was common in the area and whether it was essential that she has it. He said that it was essential that she has it because if she ever comes into contact with water on the street it could be infected and she could get the lepto illnessl; he also said that lepto was transmitted from rats and their urine and it could be harmful to her if she ever comes into contact with it. So we agree on her getting the lepto (it was two shots of different lepto vaccinations).

Afterwards she was really sleepy and drowsy. Today she is doing fine. Is it normal for pups to react this way after vaccinations, should I be looking out for anything else? If she were to have an adverse reaction from the lepto, when will these symptons present themselves?

2nd concern - when he first looked at her he said that she was tiny. Tia however is 9 weeks (today) and weighs 1 kg (2.2 lbs) this seems fine to me, she should be about 7lbs fully grown right? At first I thought maybe I should be feeding her more?

Until he said her stomach seemed quite bloated. I understand why he has that as Tia has a little little pop belly (since I got her); he said I may be over feeding her. The breeder told me to give her 1/5 of the (regular sized) can of wet food per feeding (I thought this was abit much so I have been given her a little less). How much do you think I should be feeding Tia?

I'm starting to think maybe she is bloated as she is taking up to 1.5 hrs to do a number 2 sometimes; (sometimes however it as quick as about 20 mins) - she may have constipation, what can I do to alleviate bloaty ness - maybe less food and more water or more fibre (fruits and vegg!?)

Sorry so long. These are just some of the concerns I have now after the vet apt. I may try a different vet, I felt as though he was rushing to get us in and out as quickly as poss (no one was in the office for more than say 7 mins). But I dunno whether it was because she was only having her shots? On her final shots I will assess their interaction again.

Thanks for reading

Tia --> says thank you too

[Cathi]

but I would bring this up at my next visit to be sure that there is not something else going on with your furbaby.

[KissKiss]

Originally Posted by Cathi

but I would bring this up at my next visit to be sure that there is not something else going on with your furbaby.

Hi thanks for the reply

What bit would you bring up? the lepto concerns, the itching or the weight? or all three.

I had prepared a list of what I wanted to ask but felt like I was being rushed out. I didn't want to insist because I thought maybe the procedure is you pay for shots you get shots. I didn't want him to think I was trying to get more than what I paid for

[Judy in Waco]

I'm sorry you're worried. Does she seem playful and energetic? If she is, then I wouldn't worry too much.

I would look around for a new vet you feel more comfortable with. I'm not sure how familiar yours is with yorkies, but I wonder after reading your post. When you call around looking for a vet, ask the receptionist or whoever answers the phone how familiar they are with yorkies and other toy breeds. Get recommendations from other yorkie owners as well.

I don't know much about bloat, but I think it's more serious than a little belly. Have you posted photos of her? I need to go look.

Post some new photos anyway and let the more experienced members here tell you what they think.

I think being a little drowsy after puppy shots is to be expected.

[KissKiss]

Originally Posted by Judy in Waco

I'm sorry you're worried. Does she seem playful and energetic? If she is, then I wouldn't worry too much.

I would look around for a new vet you feel more comfortable with. I'm not sure how familiar yours is with yorkies, but I wonder after reading your post. When you call around looking for a vet, ask the receptionist or whoever answers the phone how familiar they are with yorkies and other toy breeds. Get recommendations from other yorkie owners as well.

I don't know much about bloat, but I think it's more serious than a little belly. Have you posted photos of her? I need to go look.

Post some new photos anyway and let the more experienced members here tell you what they think.

I think being a little drowsy after puppy shots is to be expected.

Hi thanks for the reply. I have posted some pictures of her in the gallery (don't know how to get there again or post in this thread) I'm not at home now but when I get some I'll try and take some pictures of her stomach.

When he was looking at her stomach he said she isn't having any discomfort with it and he put the that object on her stomach (you know the one which they put in the ears to hear stuff inside ).

eta: today shes back to her playful energetic self.

[Judy in Waco]

Then, I would just keep doing what you're doing EXCEPT that I would find a new vet! I would want one who listens to me and answers my questions. End of story. I don't care how much or how little I paid for a visit, he or she should be willing to take some time with me and my pet.

I will pm you with my email address. You can email the photos to me and I can resize them for you. I can also walk you through how to post them anywhere you want. There are also YT members who can make you an avatar.

Hug that little girl for me, okay? And kiss that little puppy belly!!

[KissKiss]

Originally Posted by Judy in Waco

Then, I would just keep doing what you're doing EXCEPT that I would find a new vet! I would want one who listens to me and answers my questions. End of story. I don't care how much or how little I paid for a visit, he or she should be willing to take some time with me and my pet.

I will pm you with my email address. You can email the photos to me and I can resize them for you. I can also walk you through how to post them anywhere you want. There are also YT members who can make you an avatar.

Hug that little girl for me, okay? And kiss that little puppy belly!!

aww thank you, your post made me smile. I'm home now, I will charge the camera then take a few pics.

Her lil belly is so cute lol

[Ellie May]

The lepto vaccine is a very controversial issue. Obviously it is a dangerous disease but it is a dangerous vaccine to Yorkies. Some lepto vaccines even have to be given twice a year. This is really between you and your vet but I will just say, one lepto vaccine (although it doesn't protect against all strains) is too much, so two would be out of the question for me.

Lethargy, depression and inappetance can be side effects.
Throat closure and shock are the serious ones.
These should happen within a half hour but I would be very cautious for 48 hours.
If all symptoms aren't gone by about 3 days, back to the vet...

Just because of what Ellie went through with the lepto vaccine, I will not give it to Yorkies anymore (for now at least). I am taking a risk though. It is a huge risk either way.

[deb22]

My vet reccommends the Lepto vaccine here.( S. Jersey) We also live on a farm. I am very concerned for Penny. She goes to the vet Wed. nite.

[y0rkiesR0ck]

my vet gave Kash the lepto vaccination. we live in florida where it rains a lot. i also live near a lake where bacteria is common. After kash got the lepto shot, he was very drowsy and fatigued for the whole day. but the next day he was completely back to normal. so, i think you're fine. also, if he had a reaction to the shot, the symptoms would show up within 1 to 3 days of getting it. but mostly, if he hasn't had a reaction within the first 24 hrs, chances are he probably won't. but the vet says to keep an eye out for weird behavior for up to 3 days.

[KissKiss]

I think we have take off Judy!?

[Judy in Waco]

Originally Posted by KissKiss

I think we have take off Judy!?

Yeah! She's a cutie!

I'm not experienced with pups other than mine, but that looks like a normal puppy belly to me. (Don't you just want to kiss her?)

[Judy in Waco]

LOL! I love the tongue in the first pic!

[KissKiss]

Thanks again Judy

[Kris Christine]

Personally, I would switch to a homeopathic/holistic veterinarian -- one who would have not given your Yorkie pup multiple vaccinations at once, especially Leptospira, when he noticed that she is small and has a "pop" belly. You can do an online search for one near you at American Holistic Veterinary Medical Association http://www.holisticvetlist.com/, Academy of Veterinary Homeopathy http://www.theavh.org/referral/index.php

Combination Vaccines, Multiple Shots--on Page 16 of the 2003 AAHA Guidelines under Immunological Factors Determining Vaccine Safety, it states that: "Although increasing the number of components in a vaccine may be more convenient for the practitioner or owner, the likelihood for adverse effects may increase. Also, interference can occur among the components. Care must be taken not to administer a product containing too many vaccines simultaneously if adverse events are to be avoided and optimal immune responses are sought. "

Regarding the Lepto vaccine, on Page 2 of the American Animal Hospital Association's 2003 Canine Vaccine Guidelines and Recommendations, it states that "Optional or 'noncore' vaccines are those that the committee believe should be considered only in special circumstances because their use is more dependent on the exposure risk of the individual animal. Issues of geographic distribution and lifestyle should be considered before administering these vaccines. In addition, the diseases involved are generally self-limiting or respond readily to treatment. The committee believes this group of vaccines comprises distemper-meases virus (D-MV), canine parainfluenza virus (CPIV), Leptospira spp., Bordetella bronchispetica, and Borrelia burdorferi."

Furthermore, on Page 7, Tables 1 of the AAHA Guidelines referenced above, it states under Revaccination (Booster Recommendations) that the Leptospira interrogans vaccine "....this product carries high-risk for adverse vaccine events." Under Overall Comments and Recommendations they elaborate: "Anecdotal reports from veterinarians and breeders suggest that the incidence of postvaccination reactions (acute anaphylaxis) in puppies (<12 wks of age) and small-breed dogs is high. Reactions are most severe in young (<9 wks of age) puppies. Routine use of the vaccine should be delayed until dogs are >9 wks of age."

On Page 8 of the 2006 American Animal Hospital Association's Canine Vaccine Guidelines, it states that "Veterinarians are advised of anecdotal reports of ACUTE ANAPHYLAXIS in TOY BREEDS following administration of leptospirosis vaccines. Routine vaccination of toy breeds should only be considered in dogs known to have a high exposure risk."

Leptospira is a “killed” vaccine and is associated with clinically significant adverse reactions. According to the 2003 AAHA Guidelines (Page 16), "...killed vaccines are much more likely to cause hypersensitivity reactions (e.g., immune-mediated disease)." Further, the AAHA task force reports on Page 18 that, "Bacterial vaccines, especially killed whole organism products …..are much more likely to cause adverse reactions than subunit or live bacterial vaccines or MLV vaccines, especially if given topically. Several killed bacterial products are used as immunomodulators/adjuvants. Thus, their presence in a combination vaccine product may enhance or suppress the immune response or may cause an undesired response (e.g., IgE hypersensitivity or a class of antibody that is not protective)."

A fuller discussion of the Lepto vaccine can be found on Page 14, in which it is reported that, "Immunity is an ill-defined term for Leptospira ssp. products. If immunity is defined as protection from infection or prevention of bacterial-shedding, then there is little or no enduring immunity."

Dr. Alice Wolf, Professor of Small Animal Internal Medicine at Texas A&M College of Veterinary Medicine, stated in an address (Vaccines of the Present and Future http://www.vin.com/VINDBPub/SearchPB...00/PR00141.htm) at the 2001 World Small Animal Veterinary Association World Congress that: "The most reactive vaccines for dogs include leptospirosis bacterin and Borrelia [Lyme]vaccine.".

Personally, I found the most stunning quote in this entire document to be on Page 18, in which the task force declares: "However, the ethical issue that our profession struggles with today is whether economics justifies giving an animal a drug (vaccines are biologic drugs) that is not necessarily required. As a minimum, we should allow pet owners to make this choice rather than make it for them."


Anyone who wishes to have a copy of the American Animal Hospital Association's 2003 Canine Vaccine Guidelines referenced above, please contact me at ledgespring@lincoln.midcoast.com. I highly encourage people to share this report with all of the dog owners they know!

Duration of Immunity to Canine Vaccines: What We Know and Don't Know, Dr. Ronald Schultz http://www.cedarbayvet.com/duration_of_immunity.htm

World Small Animal Veterinary Association 2007 Vaccine Guidelines http://www.wsava.org/SAC.htm Scroll down to Vaccine Guidelines 2007 (PDF)

The 2003 American Animal Hospital Association's Canine Vaccine Guidelines are accessible online at http://www.leerburg.com/special_report.htm .

The 2006 American Animal Hospital Association's Canine Vaccine Guidelines are downloadable in PDF format at http://www.aahanet.org/PublicDocumen...s06Revised.pdf .

Veterinarian, Dr. Robert Rogers,has an excellent presentation on veterinary vaccines at http://www.newvaccinationprotocols.com/