I didn't realize that TopNotch was a broker. I've always heard good things about her. I myself have nothing against someone "doing the homework for you" and going across country and picking up the best pups. If she makes a little money, she makes money. As we all know, if breeders were "just" breeding to better the breed, they would only ask for the money used to raise the pup to 12 weeks (expenses, food, etc.) and not make a stitch of money. But, we know that's not going to happen...and nobody should expect it to. People should be compensated for their time. But, how much should it be $100, $500, $1000? Who knows. Everyone values their time differently.

Now, I don't want to get into a pissing match with anyone either, and don't expect any rude comments towards me, b/c I wasn't rude to anyone. I've stated my opinion, and that's it. And no, of course, I don't support puppymills. But we are bashing this TopNotch woman and we don't even know her. If some want to come to the conclusion that all brokers are bad, then that's your prerogative...but I don't like to stereotype or discriminate. Sorry JMHO.

I started this thread because I wanted help in finding a breeder I can trust. I just want a good healthy pet from a reliable person who I can rely on to help me if I have any problems or questions down the road. I want communication with them long after the purchase has been made. I'm not interested in a show dog. I LOVE long legs and find down ears really cute on certain dogs. I'm not concerned with an impeccable coat either. They're imperfections to you, but they're beautiful and unique to me. And I would never EVER breed my dogs regardless of the "defects" I find attractive.

I appreciate all the help people have given me but am so disheartened that some members can so easily discredit an individual because of the stigma of a name they carry. I just can't believe how nasty this thread has gotten.

Kaymo, you say that your posts are never directed to top notch themselves, but you post these really negative opinionated comments on threads that are discussing her. It just seems like you are always singling her out that all. You've implied such suspition whenever a new yorkie talk member comes on and talks about TNY, but there has been posts about them way before a few months ago, it's not like she's anything new. I think it's wonderful that yorkie talk is getting more members and if she's bringing more people to the site, then great! We should be making them feel welcome and be thankful the word is spreading about this site! These forums are so informative, and it's great that more people are educating themselves on the Yorkie breed. And ultimately I do believe that that is your intention, but you can be so abrasive to these new members sharing their success about TNY. Their motives for joining shouldn't be questioned. All thats going to do is give yorkie talk a bad rep for having mean members and turn people off to the site.

In your reply post to me you said that you never said she was selling sick puppies, but you're very adamite that she buys from puppy mills. But don't sick dogs and puppy mills go hand in hand? I don't think you can have one without the other. And I am not supporting her, but obviously I'm questioning things said about her that I think are unfair. To quote you "You've never seen the parents or their living conditions so you can't make a judgement about where they come from" ......BUT NEITHER HAVE YOU, so neither CAN you! Yet you've asserted your opinions with such certainty that they could easily be taken for fact in regards to this particular broker! To accuse or imply that ALL brokers, which includes top notch, equals puppy mills is a serious accusation. This individual has a good reputation, why tarnish it with assumptions? How can you make up your mind about someone that you don't even know or have met? I just don't understand that. Why is it not a possibility that she is different?

And I am 100% percent against puppy mills. No living creature should ever be put through that torture. I've seen what a puppy mill does to a dog, and that broke my heart. Just because I am sticking up for a broker, doesn't mean I support puppy mills! I was very offended by that comment and thought it was cruel remark to make. I felt that you insulted the core of my love for animals. I would never falsely accuse someone of supporting puppy mills. Especially a dog lover.

Drdolittle's integrity was most definitely questioned when she first posted. And everyone knows it's very hard not to take the offensive. I think yorkie talk should embrace vets, as they can offer the best advice in caring for your pup, especially if this particular vet deals with yorkies, and tiny ones at that, it could be really helpful to members. And I'm sure that she could/would have answered any question, FOR FREE. Which could be very useful to yorkie members that do not always have the funds to frequently visit the vet. ALTHOUGH, I did find her post to be inappropriate as well. I don't think anyone should be dug into like that. It must be very hard not to get personal when you're in a heated discussion, especially when the topic is about someone you hold the highest regard. But everyone DESERVES respect.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but forcefully imposing your own is never as effective as helpful education. These forums shouldn't be used to intimidate. Nobody likes a bully. And the anti-broker posts can be very intimidating when you've had a good experience with one and are afraid to post what a great experience you had, because you'll just get bombarded with negative posts. I agree that the misconception that surrounds brokers and breeders should be set straight. I think that is a valuable piece of information that should be made clear. But in your words of wisdom you're getting in the specifics about a particular broker whether you intended to or not. Giving a heads up about a specific breeder or broker through first or second hand experience, is a valuable piece of advice that yorkie seekers should take very seriously. We're all on here to learn and to seek advice, please don't let racism interfere with such a outlet of genuine knowledge. I doubt any of us would appreciate being ridiculed and shunned because we fit in an unpleasant category. There are always acceptions. Always.

If you started this post to find a trustworthy breeder, how could you consider buying from a broker. Brokers do not buy pups from a reputable, trustworthy breeder, Ever! The kind of breeder you want would NEVER sell a pup to a broker.

Ali22 - I don't know where you decided some replys were racists. Reading back through I couldn't find one reference to anyone's race. In fact of all things said previously the most disrespectful comments came from YT's so called resident vet. IMO, a reputable vet would NEVER promote a broker of puppies, as they are well aware of the problems associated with the industry as a whole and want the practice stopped. The only vet that would promote a broker might be doing so with the thought of future business with sick puppymill/brokered pups.

ali22, I'm sorry you find my posts negative because they are meant to educate people on the world of puppy mills/pet shop/brokers. You are right I've never seen the parents nor the living conditions of any of her puppies but I know for a fact that no reputable good breeder sells their puppies to a broker ever. This particular broker comes up in threads like this one when someone is looking for a puppy and I feel it necessary to let people know that you can find your puppy without buying from a broker. Brokers keep mills in business, they breed frequently and push the puppies out too quickly to make room for that next litter. People need to know that buying from a broker is like buying from a pet store and most of us wouldn't recommend that. If you truly are interested in getting a new puppy you should contact the YTCA and find your local club president. This person has a list of reputable breeders and that would give you a good start.

As for the nastiness of this thread, I've never resorted to name calling or insults in my posts and I find it extremely offensive that you would imply that I'm somehow racist because I don't support brokers! You need to read these posts again and then apologize to me.

Nicole, For the life of me I cannot understand why this is so hard for everyone. I actually did a search last night trying to find one iota of information that says buying from a broker is a good thing...I found not one single thing to back up the other side of the issue. Not one.
This is not thinking outside the box on an issue that can go either way, this is supporting mills.

If it makes you all feel better to think these puppies came from some nice ladies and gentlemen in Brazil raising their babies in the house and just wanting them to come to America with some nice lady go ahead. Personally I think this is naivity at its best. For the last month I have seen a dozen posts on the forum supporting, promoting and defending this broker, I, like Kaymo have put our opinions in about brokers on each thread. It is always in hopes that someone will educate themselves by doing research. Now this...a "veterinarian" comes on to defend and promote? Have you ever received a single typed thing from your vet that was not signed with their first and last name and DVM after that? I am not saying that "Dr Boolittle" is not a real vet, I do however think it is more than a little "fishy" and I think would like a little more info on them than that before they start handing out medical advise on here.

This morning I had a rather lengthy conversation with my vet concerning this subject. He says any vet that would come on a pet forum and state an opinion on any subject should be willing to back up their statements with their complete signature and professional affiliation. They do take the oath as MD's are required to take and this vet promoting a broker, in this manner would be a violation of that oath. He is very well aware of the puppy brokering business as we live in an area of Amish farmers and 99.9% of them are breeding something and sell to brokers. In his opinion if you are a reputable breeder there would be NO reason for using a broker.

Kaymo, I DEFINATLY misused the word. So I apologize to the people that that offended. In the heat of pounding away at my computer, I got a little carried away. Next time I'll get the thesaurus! lol

But implying that I am Pro Puppy Mills just because I challenged the comments you've made on brokers is outragous. I'm just asking questions. I don't know where they get their puppies from either, it's not like I really know anything about TOP NOTCH YORKIES. I just had alot of "what ifs" about TOP NOTCH YORKIES. Not every broker in the world, just this one. Do you know that I've been getting PMs from Top Notch owners because they've been bullyed off posting on the site? They no longer want to post on forums for fear of being verbally attacked because of where they got their dog?? I was really disappointed to hear that.

I see crystal clear how you all feel about brokers. You are entitled to your own opinion, as I am entitled to explore mine. I will be leaving it up me to decide how I feel about this specific broker. If anyone has SPECIFIC info about TOP NOTCH YORKIES, please let me know. And I got that she's a broker, no need to reiterate. Thanks

Before I start, I've decided NOT to quote anyone, b/c I think that's where the attacking begins. And I'm not about that. So....

This is not a hard subject to figure out. What if I told you that I was related to her and knew she was 100% legit? She goes to Brazil to pick the PERFECT pup because you can't do it yourself. She makes sure that "your" new pup will be 100% healthy and beautiful, and the parents have wonderful temperments too. Shoot, saves me a trip to Brazil! You don't know if I'm related to her. Would you hate me b/c I support my aunt and her business? I would hope not!

This is why I won't get into a pissing match with anyone on here. It's like me trying to convince you abortion is right/wrong based on your beliefs. We can argue till the cows come home, and we probably won't agree with one another. Does that make you or I a bad person? Hell no! It's what we believe. People are stereotyping brokers as "all bad." And the "all" get pups from puppymills. I don't stereotype. Maybe it's an "East Coast thing," who knows cuz I've "heard" things about ya'll in other states!!! Do I believe them, NO cuz then I would be stereotyping, right? ;) I'm not a person that listens to people..Don't hang out with "so and so" b/c she's mean. "Don't buy from brokers cuz they are all bad." "Don't talk to him b/c he is black/white/chinese/etc." How ever you look at it, it IS stereotyping. And, I won't do it. Now, I'm not saying I wouldn't heed people's advice about purchasing from somewhere if it were the truth. Like Dane for example. There are too many negatives on him. And you know what, seriously? I've heard negative things about "reputable" breeders too. Does that mean I wouldn't buy from them? No!! Any person could have a bad apple or two or make up stories to hurt someone.

As I stated before, if a "reputable breeder only breeds for the better of the breed" then should they not be paid any extra cash if they just want to better the breed? No, because it is a business, no matter how much money people claim to make.

Now, I know I will probably be talked about by some on other forums for saying all this, but, if you want to talk about be for my beliefs then that's your decision. But dislike me because I think differently then some? Sorry, that's just ridiculous.

This right here is the reason I've not been so active here on YT. I'm tired of people getting bashed for asking "stupid" questions or stating their opinion. It's getting OLD!!!!!

PS. I apologize to YT admin in advance if you feel the need to close this thread.

PSS. I would also like to add that I am NOT mad/upset/etc. with anyone who trys to rebut my opinions. As long as it's done in a professional manner, it's all good! ;)

Yeah, someone who agrees with me! It's a miracle! LOL :D We Jersey girls! :eek: LOL :p

I have never bashed, insulted or "hated" any member on this forum. How is it that the person who has an opposing opinion on brokers and poses this in a "professional manner" is the one getting bashed. I've been called racist, cynical, basher, and jealous by many of you who think you're entitled to your opinion, but no one else is allowed to have one. And how this is allowed to continue is beyond me. I find myself not coming to Yorkie Talk much anymore because of this.

As far as this broker being related to you doesn't change how I feel about the practice of buying puppies at a reduced price and then reselling them at a much higher price. That's exactly what a pet shop does. It's the same as flipping property. Whether the broker goes to Brazil, Georgia or Louisiana, no reputable breeder is selling their babies to a broker because they care too much about their puppies. No matter how you look at it brokers keep mills in business.

...any again... :goodpost: :goodpost: :goodpost: :clapsmile

I totally agree with you. The 'middle man' could be the nicest, kindess person, but it doesn't change the fact that they are still a 'middle man' re-selling a product for a higher price. And all they have to do is...call up the Manufacturer and RE-STOCK as needed...

And I will say it again...we all have our own opinions!!! When did I bash you? You were the one "making fun" and bashing others. And now you are trying to do it to me. Grow up, it's getting OLD!!!!!!!

Who cares if they are a middle man? You've never bought and resold anything for a profit? Can we say eBay? Did you even check out her website? She's selling Yorkies for a HECK of a lot cheaper than a lot of people are!!! She's not selling them for $10,000 or even $2000, like some people I know!

[Insert Serenity Prayer here]

You are right we all have our opinions. My opinion is this...

Animals are living, breathing, beings - that needs to be loved and cared for...NOT SOMETHING SOLD ON E-BAY...

My opinion is that a responsible breeder of these such creatures SHOULD NOT pass off their responsibly to a 'middle man' to find that loving home that is going to care for them for the rest of their lives. My opinion is that when a 'middle man' is involved $$$ play a huge part. I am sorry, but my values towards living creatures go far beyond $$$.

I do not hold high values for people (breeders - whether they are big or small producers - whether they sell for lots of $ or not) THAT PASS OFF PUPS for someone else to make more $$$ off of and then to handle that final - important part - A FOREVER AND EVER HOME!

THESE ARE ALL JUST MY OPINIONS AND VALUES...

You are entitled to your own...

We know what your opinions are as you've expressed them before, and I value your input, as I do of others.

But, it is how some express their opinions. Wouldn't you agree in my first post that I did not bash or undermine anyone's opinion? I just stated mine, and then people get attacked. When this happens, I have a tendency of jumping to my own offense. If you don't defend yourself, who will? Do you know how many emails I've gotten over my months here on YT of people agreeing with me, but afraid to post in agreement for fear of being bashed? It's pretty sad. :(

As stated above, I value anyone's opinions, as long as someone doesn't try to make me look and or feel like an ignorant person. One way? ALL CAPS! I don't need to be yelled at. I am a grown woman, thank you. ;)

Whether I am "wrong" or "right" about brokers, or any other discussion for that matter, shouldn't mean that I should be made by others to seem like I am a wrong/bad person! That's just not nice! Don't you think we can all state our opinions without getting jumped on by one or more persons? I am an extremely educated person (if I do say so myself), and I expect to be educated by others, not scolded because I may be "wrong" in someone's eyes. Jumping down someone's throat will not get a point across. It actually makes me want to disagree on purpose! I've learned more here on YT when people educate me. I can actually feel the tension and picture the eye bulging when some of you are writing these posts (and I'm not just talking about this particular thread). :eek:

Nicole, I hear and understand all that you are saying. I too at times am fearful of posting something, b/c I do not want to be jumped either.
Writing emoitions is very difficult and we all have them along with such passion for these creatures.

I myself am just sick to my stomach with the world and how cruel it really, really is. YT is such an awesome place, but on the flip side, I have been awakened to such misery that is going on all this while and I never ever knew it before...

P.S. SORRY FOR THE CAPS ha-ha-ha-ha - It is just habit at times! ;)

That's okay! I know what you mean. ;) For me, this whole thread kinda turned from being okay with Top Notch, to not being okay with how people express their feelings! LOL I almost forgot what we were supposed to be talking about! :eek: :p

Believe me, I have some crazy "beliefs" that many people may disagree with, and that's okay. But as I stated, I LOVE to be educated, not scolded or made to feel like I am wrong or bad. I've had TONS of great, and not so great, convos here on YT (just check my posts, as I don't shut up :eek: LOL). People have changed my mind completely..i.e. breeding my beloved pet! I thought about breeding Baby when I first got her, then I found out what was involved (everyone was so nice in their responses) and I changed my mind. It's when people get jumped on for stuff, that I think they think "Just to piss them off, I'm gonna do the opposite." You know, like what teenagers do? :yelrotflm

That's why I like to state my opinion and try my best not to hurt anyone in my initial post. I wish the person the best, b/c you know darn well they are going to make their own choice. All we can do is educate, and let them be on their way. Guess it's the teacher in me! :)

AW! BabyFidgette, you're awesome! Thank you for getting what I've been saying. I feel like I've been talking to a wall!

Brokers have a bad reputation, and for a reason. Anyone who is looking to buy from them should educate themselves on the business of brokers before the make their decision. But there are exceptions to everything, and that should be explored as well.

I'm baffled by the direction this thread took. I just wanted some input as to where to get my pup! lol Thank you to everyone that PMed me, I appreciate all the help and kind words. I was starting to think coming on here was a bad idea. And I'm so sorry to those of you who feel like they have to talk about their happy experiences in private. Thats really a shame. You have a right to your opinions as well.

I'm going to make a comparison here that will be extreme. It may help some to understand why we are so adamant there are no "good brokers".

During the days of slave trading many began to think the practice was wrong. It wasn't right for one person to own another. The slaves lived in all different types of conditions. Some of the masters were "good" to their slaves, treated them much better than other masters treated their slaves. This didn't matter because it was morally/fundamentally wrong regardless of how the masters (whether related to you or not) treated their slaves. The battle against this practice was long and hard but eventually it was abolished.

I believe the same reasoning can be given in this debate of brokers. Without brokers puppymills would not cease to exist, their numbers would be diminished though. Through education hopefully the general public would not buy from them and that would further reduce their numbers.

No doubt some brokers may treat their dogs better than others. It doesn't matter if the broker is related or not, the practice is still morally/ fundamentally wrong and should be abolished.

I believe all mills should be abolished too!!!! But, let's face it (I know I'm being pessimistic) unfortunatly that's probably far from going to happen. :( Do I honestly believe that if puppymills stop that brokers and pet stores wouldn't be able to get pups? Honestly, no. If people want something, they are going to find a way to get it. Sad, but true. There's always some crazy loop hole(s) in the system. (sigh)

Nicole I think you missed my point. I believe both practices - brokering and puppy mills should be abolished. Yes, there are crazy loopholes in the system, but that doesn't mean you sanction the practice for that reason.

No, I didn't miss your point. Thank you.

So..... Are you saying we should just say screw it and support the mills anyway? Instead of fighting them we should just join them and lets keep those brokers and pet stores in business.
Its this mentality that keeps the mills running strong.
Its actually quite sad :(

EXACTLY!!
This certain broker that is being discussed probably takes great care of the pups in her care but it still doesnt make it right what this person is doing. They are not being bred and sold for the love of the breed they are being bred and sold for the $$$$$ in it. Careful selection isnt being taken when making these pups, I cant see someone whos in it purely for the money care what two dogs they put together. Im sure they dont screen for genetic diseases. Like its being said over and over again but no one seems to get the point. NO REPUTABLE BREEDER WILL SELL THEIR PUPS TO A BROKER!! Reputable breeders care where their pups are going, you get interview by the breeder before they even mention they have pups.
I think buying a pup from a petstore or a broker is like playing russian roulette. You just dont know what you are going to get when buying that cute little pup. You may get the REALLY sick pup or get really lucky and get a pup that isnt sick. Brokers cant tell you the pups entire background, they can tell you what the breeder told them.
I highly doubt the broker is over at the breeders as we speak discussing pedigrees or health concerns.
Why not find a reputable breeder and give them your hard earned money for a pup that was raised in a clean, loving and healthy enviroment?

very well stated and without insults! ;)

I agree, Jen. We should organize a mailing to our US legislators to enact laws abolishing this horrendous practice.

Yeah, that\'s what I\'m saying. Everyone should support puppymills. So, who\'s up for the weekend trip with me to the PA Puppymill? Let\'s go get some dogs!!! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

How many more times can we hear this? NO REPUTABLE BREEDER WILL SELL THEIR PUPS TO A BROKER!! Please, somebody else say it again, cuz then maybe this hardhead will understand.

God, this thread is getting so annoying!!!!!!!!

Nicole, I\'m not trying to be rude, but your sarcasm is unnecessary and unwarranted. I originally posted in response to \'drboolittle\' because I found it suspicious that a vet would not only support but recommend a broker on her first post to this site. It\'s unethical and I felt compelled to post, especially after speaking to my vet.

Like it or not there is a correlation between mills and brokers. The message "no reputable breeder will sell their pups to a broker" will continue as long as there are people who need to hear it, it\'s educational.

If this thread is "getting so annoying" then why continue to post? :confused: