Actually your post said that you'd be a very difficult client to advise and I was responding to that in particular.

The post said a bit more than being a difficult client and there are fetting into clarification of specific not broad sweeping rulings based on just a few claims of ecaluating general basic pnr feeding guidelines...

And I chose to repond to the part of the post I felt like responding to. I have no interest in debating the issue with those of you that do not have a liver compromised dog.

I'm just saying he's not trying to be difficult or one tracked in thinking.

I think they're trying to be open minded in researching facts in a critical way.

What else but productive debate enables such in open forums.

My last word on this is that these dogs have broken liver architechure. They have underdeveloped portal vein systems and shunting. Because of that fact, they cannot tolerate red meat in most cases. Why? Because of variations among protein sources as to the amino acid chains making up the food and in particular the nitrogen group. These red meats cause higher amounts of nitrogen to be released into the blood, which in a normal dog is cleaned by the liver before being returned to circulation. In the shunting dog, this cleansing doesn't occur, and nitrogen breaks down into ammonia and that builds up in these dogs causing varying degree of symptoms. Many cannot tolerate animal sources at all and that's why the world leaders in this area at Univ. Of TN recommend the foods they do. I prefer to debate areas where there is room for debate and liver shunting dogs and appropriate diets for them isn't one such area in my opinion. I don't like feeding legumes and tubers to my dog, but she's still alive and turns 12 next month so I'll continue to pu my own preferences as to the canine diet aside and feed what is saving her life. That's open minded, don't you think.

Yep and really informative.

I dont feed a lot of red neat in general but your info on general protein intake is informative.

My perspective in life is to question everything you learn so much that way.

Why is my fav word especially comparatively to why not or absolutes.

That is EXACTLY what I was expecting. A modification to diet so as to feed proteins which produce the least amount of ammonia.

Thanks! That makes complete sense. Pardon me for any accidental thread derailing.

When the body's detox system is not working correctly, the immune system is affected. Compromised immune system makes bacteria more likely to multiple. IMO, feed what you want to feed and recommend what you want to recommend. I recommend going with the experts on this and not Google.

I have a liver compromised dog and there is no way I would give her raw meat and no way her nutritionist would ok the idea. And no, she is not trying to make sales for Purina or SD either. She actually encouraged homecooking.

As for only listening to veterinary nutritionists if they feed PMR, to each their own. I can almost guarantee you will never find one. A lot of them have their PhD on top of their DVM. Dog food ompanies do not tend to teach phD students. I think they have enough knowledge to evaluate PMR. They don't feed it to their dogs or very valid reasons.

And Vital is over 40% protein on a dry matter basis.

LoL wow!

Tgats exactly why we like raw!

Where did uou get your vital facts from can you libk and and on what protein abd what flavor are you generalizing your fact?

I believe it was the chicken flavor. When a food is full of moisture (be it canned, raw, or homecooked), the %s listed on the container can't be taken at face value. Each thing needs to be converted to a dry matter basis (i,e. protein divided by the revipricol of the moisture). It may be 11% protein bc the product is so full of moisture, but that moisture is not really a nutrient contributing calories generally speaking. the same could be said for human food. If you put a steak in a bowl and add a bunch if water, it will make the dish low in protein mathematically, but still that water can't count. So it needs to be mathematically removed. So this steak and water is still a very high protein meal...

I'm not sure what you mean by this is why we feed pmr. I say if that is what you want to feed, go for it. But for my liver co promised dog, we do not and will not.

I see.
Does thay apply to freezedried?

Any food that is very dry does not really need to be converted to a dry matter basis bc the difference would be negligible. You could if you wanted to though. The freeze dried profucts here are also in the 40% range.

So if its negotiable and labeled 11%...youre still calling it 40% because?

Canned, homecooked, and raw foods have a significant amount of moisture and need to be converted to dry matter. Take, for instance, the frozen chicken Nibblets by Vital.

Protein: 11% min
Fat 9.5% min
Moisture: 74% max
Frozen Chicken Nibblets

On a dry matter basis the protein would be 42% (11/26).
The fat would be 36% (9.5/26).

Dry foods like kibble and freeze dried with low moisture content don't generally need to be converted to a dry matter basis because the difference is negligible. The math can be done anyway jst to show that this is true. So here is the guaranteed analysis for Freeze Dried Chicken Nibblets.

Protein 41% min
Fat 34.5% min
Moisture 8.5% max
Freeze-Dried Chicken Nibblets


On a dry matter basis this food is 44% protein (41/91.5).
The fat is 37% (34.5/91.5).

Below is a link to the AAFCO minimal percents needed for nutrients. Adult food has to contain at least 18% protein to be approved. The Vital 11% protein food is AAFCO approved. that is because it is more than 18% dry matter. If it was truly 11%, it would have never been approved. Anyway, the lowest % protein a dog can live on long term is thought to be more than 11%. If a company was only using 11% protein, those would be some really malnourished dogs... The food is mostly protein and fat.


AAFCO Dog Food Nutrient Profiles

I dony know how but when YT on my cell I hit ubsubscribe a lot i stead of the thread above.

Anyways I still dobt get it so I'm going to write to Vital directly they have the AA...certifaction listed on their site to show evaluations and they list their 11%anatomy and 14% proteins as total protein matter for freeze dried, so in my mind thats the same as doing a dry matter evaluation...?


I was looking at their foul and deer.

I can't find that flavor anywhere on their site or Google.

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

This is great info.

I think some of the lowest fat premade raw foods I saw were rabbit flavors, but the protein is high.

Another example:

Primal Rabbit is
Crude Protein (min) 19%
Crude Fat (min) 4%
Crude Fiber (max) 1%
Moisture (max) 74%

Dry Matter Protein Content = (19/26) x 100 = 73%

Dry Matter Crude Fat Content = (4/26) x 100 = 15%

I'll post a pic of it I'm pretty sure it was Vital next time I go to the pet store.

Remember, when you are comparing a meat, such as 4 ounces of boneless and skinless rabbit which is extremely low in fat, the protein percentage must come up as the fat percentage comes down.

If you are comparing 4 ounces of boneless and skinless pork, the protein percentage must come down as that percentage differential is replaced by fat.

Lastly, if we are are comparing 4 ounces of bone-in skin-on chicken thigh, both fat and protein will come down as that weight is replaced by bone.

Thx, good info. I think you were the one who gave me the dry matter conversions a while back when I asked.

I think it's good to know because a lot of people see "13% fat" on a canned food and think it's low in fat, etc. I know I did!

All I am seeing is a page full of different foods.

Anyway, the nutrients have to add up to 100%. You can only get this from vitamins/minerals, fiber, protein, and fat.

When given a guaranteed analysis, you can convert everything to dry matter and find approx % of carbs.

V/m are approx 5-10% of food.

So if you look at the conversion Brit did below, this food is 73%, 15% fat, about 4% fiber (don't want to calculate), 5-10% v/m. So we are at about 100%. That tells me this food is very low in carbs.

The 100% has to come from somewhere. If it is not coming from carbs, it is coming from fat and protein.

I was hoping they had the fiod listed on their avalibles as they offer odering online dont have time to ensure its there though had to get kids to bed but thanks for the converaion chart Ill check ot latwr and update.