Hmmm... interesting. I guess we shall see what he ends up with tomorrow *fingers crossed*

Just out of curiosity, boredom, and lots of reading, lol... I am looking at these foods:

Pet Products - Healthy Dog Food, Natural Cat Food, Gourmet Dog Biscuits ? Innova Holistic Pet Food
This one looks good and I like how they put a min and a max fat level. And the ingredient list isn't super long and pretty simple.

Eliminate Pet Food Allergies – Hypoallergenic Dog Food & Cat Food – California Natural Pet Food

Eliminate Pet Food Allergies – Hypoallergenic Dog Food & Cat Food – California Natural Pet Food

Dick Van Patten's Natural Balance Original Ultra Reduced Calorie Formula for Dogs

This may be a little higher in fat than you're looking for (11%), but I like this company. Fromm Family Foods - Four-Star Whitefish & Potato Holistic Entree

Does Jackson like foods with fish?

Unfortunately, nope. :(
He's never touched any kind of food w/ fish.

I found these last night and found them to be extremely helpful. :thumbup:

Healthy Low-Fat Diets For Dogs With Special Dietary Needs - Whole Dog Journal Article

Canine Pancreatitis - Whole Dog Journal Article

I thought this paragraph, from your first link, was VERY interesting.

"Most senior and light diets are relatively low in fat, but look for those that are not also low in protein. Low-protein diets should be avoided, as they can increase the risk of both hyperlipidemia and pancreatitis. Diets that are low in both protein and fat are mostly carbohydrates. Dogs get more nutritional value from protein than from carbohydrates, so it’s better to feed a diet that is higher in protein and therefore lower in carbohydrates. You can increase the amount of protein in the diet by adding high-protein, low-fat fresh foods, if needed. Moderate amounts of protein (up to 30 percent on a dry matter basis, or 23 percent of calories) are recommended for dogs recovering from acute pancreatitis."

And your second link says "Low-protein diets have also been shown to predispose dogs to pancreatitis, especially when combined with high fat intake."

I was pretty sure he didn't like fish.

Anybody know who the author of WDJ is?

I wouldn't say feed Jackson a very low protein diet (i.e. 15%). But I also wouldn't say feed a high protein diet (i.e. 31+%). The % that he needs is best decided on by his vet or veterinary nutritionist. A level of 20-25% is considered pretty standard and I don't see that causing an issue.

I'm not sure where their reference is for very restricted protein foods causing pancreatitis, but 20-25%ish is fairly moderate. Ellie has been on 24 and 28% when eating homecooked.

Also, the amino acid profile and the % phosphorus could come into play as well as the digestibility of the ingredients and how those ingredients work together.

I wouldn't feed a dog prone to pancreatitis any dairy unless okay'ed by a vet. I also wouldn't do most fruit, etc.

I, too, found this very interesting. I thought both articles were pretty informative, straight to the point, and seemed to make a lot of sense to me. They did not ever give a complete straight answer but moreso gave a lot of information, etc on pancreatitis and basically left it that each dog is different, etc.

I see the author to both articles was Mary Straus. But have not yet looked to see her credentials or who runs the site. I've just always read about it being such a respectable site and such.

I feel like you, though. I will certainly not be going over 25% protein for me to be comfortable with it. And fat levels I am looking at will most likely stay under 10%. I'd just prefer to stay on the precautious side.

Here is one of the bladder foods that they believe triggers pancreatitis. Look at the fat content - 26%. It's not all in the low protein. Actually, this is the first I've heard of it. And 13.3% would never be given to a healthy dog. The lowest that can go on the store shelves is like 18%.

?? I don't see anything.

Are you talking about 13.3% protein or fat?

That's bc I forgot to paste the link.:rolleyes:
u/d® Canine Non-Struvite Urinary Tract Health - Canned

It's 13.3% protein which wouldn't be recommended for a healthy dog and the fat is 26%. So they are saying based on the fact that dogs on this sort of food get pancreatitis, it must be the low protein, but these foods tend to be higher in fat.

I can't speak to how good any food is for a pancreatitis dog since I have never dealt with it- but as far as the companies- just remember California Natural is a Natura brand food- I have always had good results with Natural Balance foods (although I always use the LID ones) and I really like the company.

Another food used for dissolution of stones that is even worse in terms of low protein and high fat is the Hill's S/D diet. I refused to use this food for Teddy when he had struvites, which I was later told was a smart move and was provided another product to do the the same thing as that diet w/o the fat.

I believe that these are the types of food to which the author is referring and these foods would never be used in a pancreatitis dog. My own dog is on moderate protein (23%) and very low fat (3%). I was worried about very low fat, but in the 17 months since he had pancreatitis, his coat is shiny and thick and his skin is supple and not dry, but even if it was, I would not care because I'd rather have him here with me for many more years than to have him look like a fashion plate.

By the way, the author of those WDJ articles is a layperson and not a vet (see, DogAware.com: About DogAware.com). I have read WDJ for years, I enjoy the articles but I would not want to listen to Mary's advice for my sick dogs.

Not giving advice, but I know my late Molly who had Chronic Pancreatitis and IBD did wonderful on the Natural Balance Reduced Calorie Diet. We went thru several different foods and this one agreed with her the best.

Prayers and well wishes still going out for Jackson.

"Protein
Free amino acids (i.e. phenylalanine, tryptophan, and valine) in the duodenum are a strong stimulus for pancreatic secretion, in fact, more so than fat. 49 Therefore, excess dietary protein should be avoided, while providing adequate protein for recovery and tissue repair. Protein levels (DMB) of 15 to 30% for dogs and 30 to 45% for cats are appropriate."

49 Go VLW. Hofmann AF, Summerskill WFJ. Pancreozymin assay in man based on pancreatic enzyme secretion. Potency of specific amino acids and other digestive products. Journal of Clinical Investigation 1970; 49: 1558-1564.

"Feeding a high-fat (>20% DMB) food, treat or table food has often been associated with the onset of acute pancreatitis. Experimentally, feeding high-fat, low-protein foods was associated with the development of pancreatitis and hepatic lipidosis changes in dogs. 43, 44"

43 Lindsay S, Entenman C, Chaikoff IL. Pancreatitis accompanying hepatic disease in dogs fed a high fat, low protein diet. Archives of Pathology 1948; 45: 635-638.

44 Goodhead B. Importance of nutrition in the pathogenesis of experimental pancreatitis in the dog. Archives of Surgery 1971; 103: 724-728.

And a note from the chapter about digestibility:
"Carbohydrates make up the largest nonwater fraction of foods formulated for managing GI diseases. Carbohydrate digestibility of pet foods is influenced by source and processing. Dogs digest most properly cooked starches very well, including starch components in corn, rice, barley, and wheat. Other starches, including potato and tapioca, are less digestible, particularly when inadequately cooked."

All taken from:
Small Animal Clinical Nutrition 4th Edition
Hand, Thatcher, Remillard, Roudebush

Hope this helps some.
The second excerpt is just showing where the WDJ got some info from about low protein diets triggering pancreatitis. Those diets appear to have also been high in fat...

The last one is just something about digestibility. I have NO IDEA what ingredients Jackson will do best on. He may do fine on everything that is low fat. That'd be great. But it's just an example of what your vet might be talking about when expressing concern over ingredient found in tons of the newer holistic food. I also have no idea if he will need a highly digestible food. Maybe not. But your vet may feel the major brands are more digestible because most include grain. Sooo, all that to say that may be what your vet meant by ingredient differences.

Dick Van Patten's Natural Balance Original Ultra Reduced Calorie Formula for Dogs[/QUOTE]

Brit, I had Toby on this food the entire time I was trying to get his weight down due to his LP and it was wonderful. He had no issues with it whatsoever and ate it right up. But then he's not a picky eater. If it's on the floor and he can beat Speedy to whatever is dropped, he will eat it. I've always had good luck with NB. I just recently switched to Taste of the Wild as it only has 313 calories but I may switch back to NB as a rotator food.

Just seeing this because we have been out of town.

Glad things are going better. Pancreatitis can be such a scary illness. Heart warming that you have page after page of concerned YorkieTalk members showing support.

Now it all makes more sense to me. Thank you for mentioning these foods and explaining it! :)

Nancy linked this site on another thread this afternoon, and it makes the same statement The Dog Food Project - Myths about Dog Nutrition,

"According to veterinary literature, the most common causes for pancreatitis are
a high fat, low protein diet"

I thought I understood it from Cathy's explanation of RX foods, but neither article even mentions an RX diet. And of course, no sources for the veterinary literature are cited.

I don't know why this one point is bothering me, maybe because it's opposite to what I always thought. :confused:

Right now I'm feeding a grain-inclusive food that I like, that all my pups like and that they're all doing very well on (it's 26% protein, 14% fat and 391 calories). I've rotated foods in the past but I've really liked this food and I don't plan on making any changes to their diet - but I still like to know as much as I can. Like most everyone here, I just want my little ones to be healthy and happy. :) Jackson's little adventure shook me up!

Well, the article is already flawed because it says high fat, low protein "caused" pancreatitis. Nobody knows what causes the predisposition. Certain foods are associated with the development of pancreatitis, but there is thought to be an underlying factor.

These articles are saying high fat, low protein diets caused pancreatitis, yet that's just it. Low protein or not, these were still high fat diets.

A 26% protein and 14% diet shouldn't irritate things unless it was completely bound to happen. I wouldn't worry about changing a food on those grounds. I'd be much more concerned about a company's trustworthiness or lack thereof.

ME TOO!
Now I don't now what to feed any more:(
Was on Acana and TOTW.
Now I'm thinking maybe I need to go lower protein/fat or higher protein/fat or SOMETHING.
I just don't know any more. :confused::confused::confused:

That's funny, I hadn't read that on that site, but my mom had pancreatitis, and I always suspected a high carb high fat diet. After she had several bouts with this, she developed diabetes, the pancreas makes insulin, and hers stopped making it, but like most diseases, there’s usually more than one causal factor. Does anyone know if dogs who’ve had pancreatitis are more likely to develop diabetes?

Yes, dogs with recurrent or chronic pancreatitis are at high risk for diabetes.

Thank you, so would it follow, that a diet that is healthy for a diabetic dog would be a healthy diet for a dog prone to pancreatitis?

Thanks for all the great info in this thread! I just read thru the recent posts.

I am getting so frustrated because we aren't seemingly getting anywhere, yet I'm still spending lots of money :rolleyes:

The vet we saw today seems a bit puzzled herself. She said his lipase levels may still be slightly high due to something else... maybe an underlying issue or something. She finds it odd that he's not displaying any other symptoms of pancreatitis anymore, except the higher lipase levels. I liked this vet a lot better, she answered my questions with ease and explained things thoroughly and was really more compassionate.

So they are going to take his blood tomorrow, after fasting Jackson for 12hrs, and send it out to a lab which will take a few days. It's the test that Cathy (I think?) was talking about a few pages back. Hopefully this will give us more accurate results.

I am over at my dads house today with him (I actually asked the vet if this would be okay, LOL, since there is other dogs there, etc). My little brother is leaving Thursday for NC with my dad and stepmom and I already hadn't seen him for 2 weeks so didn't want another week to go by. But Jackson is chilling, I'm not letting him in the backyard off leash, so he won't get in the pool, and he's laying with his 'brother' Dachshund mix, Buddy, right now. He seemed extremely happy to see Lilly and Buddy as well as his 'human' sibling. Vet did advise not to be outside for long periods of time since it's so hot outside anyways and he can so easily dehydrate.

I take him tomorrow at 3pm for the bloodwork to be sent out to the lab. I'll give him his last meal tonight around 8pm or so...

I'm sorry Brit. This is a tough case.

Ellie's lipase runs high, but her cPL (pancreas specific) is fine. The lipase can be up for different reasons. But with him dehydrating just the other day, I'd venture to say something is still not right with his pancreas. Something just sounds off.

___________________________________________
Nancy, I don't know about that, but will flip through to see what the experts recommend for diabetic patients.

___________________________________________
Message from Cathy:
Barney was on 36% protein and 22% fat when he had an episode (so not low protein).

____________________________________________
Ellie was on 24% protein and 18% fat when she got an episode (acutally two episodes) so not low protein there either.

BTW, the term low protein is highly variable. I don't think anybody would say to restrict a pancreatitis patient to 15% or something like that. Staying under 31+% seems to be considered appropriate for most.

If the lipase does not come down, esp. if the cPL is off, I would be talking to a veterinary nutritionist about what to do if the vet is having trouble figuring this out. They may be able to help. Also, if they can't normalize lipase and cPL is up, it would be a good reason to see a specialist.

Hoping it comes down soon. In house lipase is not something I put too much faith in.

Thanks, Crystal.

The cPL... I'm assuming that is the test they are sending out for? I am pretty sure that is what she said. Said it was some kind of specific pancreatitis test or whatever.

I kind of wish they would have done this today, rather than doing bloodwork in-house, because it was another $120 or so today for them to basically tell me the same thing they've been telling me...

I'm Brit. I know this is very discouraging. :( Sending prayers for you and Mr. Jackson. Hope you guys can get everything straightened out.

Yup. Unless it's an emergency, we do not do bloods or urine in-house. You get more (results and accuracy) sometimes even for less $. My vet also sends her dogs' labs out.

The cPL is pancreas specfic and should give you some answers. It's really the standard for diagnosing pancreatitis.

He's now had THREE bloodwork tests at this vet, all between $120-$145 (because they also charge for vet exam, blood test, etc). *sigh* I hope I wasn't being raked over....

I don't understand why they wouldn't have done a cPL test when I went for our first initial re-check after being hospitalized.