Cerebellar Syndrome and raised pre-prandial bile acids
 

I have the same problem with my yorkie Fudge. He looks disorientated and walks bakward. Had him to the Vet and he said it might be meningitus, but he's not sure. I am very worried. He is a bit off-balance and "reverse" when you call him. He still have his appetite and gets excited when I get home,but I'm worried!!!

Did he suggest that you go to a specialist for testing to find out the exact cause?

Definitely sounds to me as if he needs to be seen as soon as possible by a specialist!

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/sic...very-sick.html

please read this thread and please see a neurologist immediately - there is alot of info on GME/NME on that thread and that is menangitis and it does run in this breed. The sooner the better for diagnosis for neurological conditions the better the outcome for the dog and what you are describing is neurological so they may want to do mri and spinal tap to diagnose

Might be Meningitis but he's not sure ???? And vet did NoTHinG ?????
I would get a second opinion. Go to a vet that will do something. If this pup has meningitis theres no time to waste. There are other very serious issues that this could be as well and are all life threatening if not treated Promptly and Properly. Go to another vet ASAP.

scary huh deb :( just like we have been talking about alot of dogs lately coming on here with neurological signs

Not only scary but unbelievable that a vet would do nothing when what were his words ( it may be meningitis ) I am speechless! This is an unjustice in the worst form to both the dog and owner . This is exactly why we as pet owners NEED to Educate ourselves.

YEP and some on here believe that this neurological stuff is so rare yet how many posts have we seen here recently in the last couple weeks. It does not look rare to me :(

Excuse me, but what is the vet supposed to do? I asked this person IF the vet suggested tests, but I have not seen an answer.

Y'all are acting like the vet is at fault when you don't even know what transpired.
Do you really think a vet would refuse to test and/or treat????

Perhaps this is yet another case of someone who cannot afford to vet their pup? I
don't know, but I did NOT see where the vet refused to do anything.

Maybe - maybe not we will see soon I am sure but how can you say now neurological signs are RARE in this breed we are seeing it alot lately - where are you getting your info that it is rare? you read these threads too

Better questions might be:

How common do you think it is?

And, if you think it is extremely common, do you think we need to start doing spinal taps on all yorkies now??

And, how do you think that seeing some cases on YT is giving you any kind of accurate research data?

uh LJ i am on 64 yahoo groups i read alot about dogs not just on YT you should try it you might learn a few things - you might want to jump on over to this thread and check it out and give your feedback here too - looks like neurological to me what do you think? oh and might be a vet screw up so you may not want to see that

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/sic...ease-help.html

nope not big on testing unless necessary and why i do not stick needles in my dogs bladders either (see cysto threads) but if neurological then they need to see a neurologist and he can determine if that test is necessary or not but if i see neurological signs I am referring them to a neuro you betcha

Oh my ! Well at this point there is no accurate research on things like Chiari for the simple fact of cost. As far as Taps go and MRI, I believe when a vet is presented with symptoms of brain tumor he needs to think outside the box each & every time as GME, Chiari and Brain tumor can all present exactly alike. So instead of the vet saying I think your dog has a Brain tumor what he needs to say is , there are couple of things this could be and fill the owner in on these other things so the owner can make an educated decision. When my Sassy was diagnosed with Chiari, had my vet said ONLY brain tumor my course of action would probably have been much different.My conversion with the Dr at WSU was frustrating as he said most of these cases go undiagnosed for that very reason. He also said until vets start looking outside the box we will never know but I believe there are many misdiagnosis with this condition and it is not rare. Stop and think how many we've seen here and thats just a few. How many get misdiagnosed is scary to think about and if we've seen the numbers here and some misdiagnosed you can only imagine that there are probably thousands we never hear about. Same for the teaching schools and Neuros as most owners will not spend $1800.00 for MRI & Tap if they think their dog has a brain tumor. They think , what's the point it will not save my dog and it will die anyway. So they opt to PTS when the majority of the time it wasn't even a brain tumor and the dog probably could have been saved. So I believe Education is the key.

Also some cases of Chiari are so mild that most owners never know their dog has Chiari. I have a rescue now that is 4 yrs old and shows mild symptoms of Chiari. At this point for him there is nothing that can be done except watch and wate because they will not do anything till symptoms get severe and he may not ever get to that point. It's only been 14 mo since I lost Sassy and 4 mo after, I took in this rescue . I am 1 person who has had 2 Chiari dogs so this is what I mean about there are probably thousands more . So it makes me Crazy when I hear people say it's rare. It is not rare and the more we educate about it the more dogs will have a chance at servival instead being PTS because their owner thinks their dog has a Brain tumor. This rescue has had blood work and X-rays so we know it's not liver related and x-ray was clean and my vet is not recommending MRI and tap unless he shows other signs. However I am contiplating doing it anyway just for peice of mind. Then again it may make me more paranoid as I already rush him to the vet every time he looks at me wrong, lol

Also my neighbor who lives across from me found out 2 months ago that her dog has Chiari. Her dog just turned 2 yrs old and it started out exactly like Bella. You'll never guess what her vet told her. He said I think Desi has a brain tumor. Had I not told her to get a second opinion she was going to euth Desi. She took her dog to my vet and he sent her for MRI and tap and told her he suspected Chiari and sure enough thats what she has.

I took little Fudge to another Vet. And by the way to the person who claimed that I am one of those people that can't afford tests to be done,you are so wrong. The 1st Vet said he might have meningitis and I must observe my doggie for 4 days and bring him back. I took Fudgie to another Vet and he immediately started with a course of antibiotics. I'm taking him back on Friday for the MRI. He's a bit better but still not well at all. I will do anything (and pay anything) for Fudgie to be 100% again.

I am sorry you took it that way! I was just commenting because people were saying the vet was at fault without knowing the full story from both you and the vet. I had NO idea what the circumstances were...nor did anyone else. It was NOT a comment about you personally! You had not elaborated on what the first vet suggested as a course of action, so I could not see blaming him/her.

I am glad you have a vet you are happy with and that tests are being done. I will pray for Fudgie and that he has good results on Friday. Please be sure to update us on how it goes!

Oh thank God you got a second opinion. Now I'm really angry, once again a vet has failed the pup and owner. What kind of a vet is going to suspect meningitis and wait 4 days to start treatment???:eek: I am just disgusted to hear these kinds of things and it seems it's happening WAY too often. To the OP, You did good by getting that second opinion and YOU probably just saved your dogs life so give yourself a pat on the back:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: I will be praying for Fudge to make a speedy and FULL recovery.

Carina, Please come back and update on fudge as some of us here follow along and worry rite along with you. I am so relieved you got that 2nd opinion. You are a good doggie owner.;)

Fudge went for numerous tests, they now treat him for liver shunt as the bloodcounts were very high. I am still so worried about him as it seems that he is not getting better. They've asked me to treat him for two weeks on a low protein diet. If there is no drastic improvement, then we have to look at neuro issues... I am so worried about my poor baby!!

Did they run a Bile Acid Serum test? This shows liver function. If so, what are the 2 numbers (pre and post)?

Yes they did. 148 and 182.... They are treating him now, but he is still very disorientated. Yesterday he was fine and today he is worse again. He is on a special diet as well and liver ensime meds. I don't know anymore!!!

on this link there are videos of a dog with a liver shunt so check it out.

Please post the bats like TLC stated and if your dog is having neurological signs did they give you lactulose to get the toxins out of the body faster? What is your vet doing at this point?

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/sic...-my-puppy.html

Yes they did all that. I also refrain from giving him high protien food. The Vet said I must just monitor him for another couple of days in order to give the meds some time to work...

hope your baby is feeling better soon!

Oh yes, those BATs are high, they are in the Liver Shunt range.
What is the food you are feeding? What is the supplements?

Liver Shunt dogs do "better" when you feed 5 to 6 small meals spread throughout the day and into the night.

He should also be on an Antib and Lactulose, which will help rid his body of toxins thru waste. e should be pooping 2 to 3 times a day, and it should be like soft ice cream.

yeah sounds like a shunt :(

here is some info i found today that I think is really good

WHAT ARE PORTOSYSTEMIC SHUNTS?

do they do shunt repairs there?

I think your pup needs lactulose :(

does your pup act like pup in those videos on the link?

Yes he acts like those pups. I took him back to the Vet, they have now done ultrasound to establish a liver shunt. They could not pick up a shunt!!! They suspect the shunt may be only a small one. Fudge is booked for an operation in two weeks time to see if they can find a shunt. If nothing, then I don't know what else can be wrong with my baby....

An ultra sound is only about 60% accurate in finding a shunt, therefore not a good tool to determine whether or not a shunt is there.

He could have a large or small SINGLE shunt. OR he could have lots and lots of microvascular shunting throughout his liver called: Hepatic microvascular dysplasia (MVD)
MVD

If he has a single shunt, they can repair with an amorid constrictor

If no single shunt, they can biopsy different parts of his liver and the results may come back saying he has MVD. If this is the case, nothing can be done except Diet and Supplements.

Either way - Please understand this is NOT a death sentence, he can live a perfectly normal happy life, with special care to diet and supplements.

Honeslty though, with his symptoms, he should be on Lactulose and Antib's to help rid his body of the toxins that are causing the HE acts.
Please speak to your Vet about this.

Here is a good group to joins as well:
DogLiverDisease : Dog Liver Disease

did they do scintigraphy as that is way more accurate than a ultrasound as usually i say skip the ultrasound go straight to that after bats are done

What were the bile acid test results pre and post?

Before going straight to surgery please post the bats so we can see what they are and also please have scintigraphy done but once we see those bats we will know more

Was the ALT high on bloodwork ?

I just do not want you to put your dog through surgery if the bats are below 100 so please give us all the info to help you understand better :)

See post #34
the BAT was 148 and 182