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-   -   Vibes for good BAT numbers... (https://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/sick-injured-emergencies-talk/194933-vibes-good-bat-numbers.html)

ArmaniMan 01-23-2010 09:40 AM
Vibes for good BAT numbers...
 
My Chloe just had her second BAT tests done today, so we are asking for vibes for better numbers this time.

If the numbers arent better, her liver will be biopsied when she is spayed in a few weeks but the vet figured we should have one more look at the numbers before we resort to that.

So fingers crossed please that her numbers come back better, somehow I dont think they will but I am hoping anyway.

MauiGirl 01-23-2010 10:03 AM
Good luck!

I know the feeling, my Tiki is "liver challenged", and after much testing we don't know for sure but suspect MVD, managed with diet, and still no symptoms.

LillyBug 01-23-2010 12:50 PM
(((good vibes)))- I hope that they are better this time:) :):):):) My little Lilly will have her BAT retested in 2/2010- they have been under 100 and no symptoms so far- Diet/supplement management.

kjc 01-23-2010 03:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArmaniMan (Post 2968806)
My Chloe just had her second BAT tests done today, so we are asking for vibes for better numbers this time.

If the numbers arent better, her liver will be biopsied when she is spayed in a few weeks but the vet figured we should have one more look at the numbers before we resort to that.

So fingers crossed please that her numbers come back better, somehow I dont think they will but I am hoping anyway.
I'd hold off on the spay, that can be done the same time LS surgery is done, if she's a candidate for surgery. If her post meal test is over 100, it's indicative of a shunt, less than 100 indicative of MVD. Low Albumin can indicate problems with anesthesia.

Darlene68 01-23-2010 03:26 PM
Sending positive vibes your way, I hope all goes well!

Ringo1 01-23-2010 03:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArmaniMan (Post 2968806)
My Chloe just had her second BAT tests done today, so we are asking for vibes for better numbers this time.

If the numbers arent better, her liver will be biopsied when she is spayed in a few weeks but the vet figured we should have one more look at the numbers before we resort to that.

So fingers crossed please that her numbers come back better, somehow I dont think they will but I am hoping anyway.
What are little Chloe's BAT numbers?

ArmaniMan 01-23-2010 04:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjc (Post 2969192)
I'd hold off on the spay, that can be done the same time LS surgery is done, if she's a candidate for surgery. If her post meal test is over 100, it's indicative of a shunt, less than 100 indicative of MVD. Low Albumin can indicate problems with anesthesia.
She doesnt have a shunt, that has already been determined. we are spaying in a few weeks either way, either she will have her liver biopsied or she will not, it depends on her new results.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ringo1 (Post 2969205)
What are little Chloe's BAT numbers?
the numbers the first time around were 11.3 resting and 53.7 post.

dwerten 01-23-2010 05:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArmaniMan (Post 2969248)
She doesnt have a shunt, that has already been determined. we are spaying in a few weeks either way, either she will have her liver biopsied or she will not, it depends on her new results.



the numbers the first time around were 11.3 resting and 53.7 post.
those numbers sound like mvd which can be confirmed by liver biopsy at time of spay

Ringo1 01-23-2010 07:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArmaniMan (Post 2969248)
She doesnt have a shunt, that has already been determined. we are spaying in a few weeks either way, either she will have her liver biopsied or she will not, it depends on her new results.



the numbers the first time around were 11.3 resting and 53.7 post.
Lucy's were 51 resting and 41 post. We are re-testing her in Feb. Sending some good vibes your way and you can send some our way! Keep us posted. Good Luck.:)

ArmaniMan 01-23-2010 07:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ringo1 (Post 2969455)
Lucy's were 51 resting and 41 post. We are re-testing her in Feb. Sending some good vibes your way and you can send some our way! Keep us posted. Good Luck.:)
thanks... we will be thinking of you as well!

ArmaniMan 01-25-2010 11:54 AM
So they came back... resting was now in the normal range... post was 35.3 so still high but not quite as high... now trying to decide if we are still going to biopsy or not. oh the drama these little guys cause :p

dwerten 01-25-2010 12:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArmaniMan (Post 2971558)
So they came back... resting was now in the normal range... post was 35.3 so still high but not quite as high... now trying to decide if we are still going to biopsy or not. oh the drama these little guys cause :p
yeah as biopsy will confirm mvd but sounds like she has mvd as numbers are over 25 on post bile acid - I would just do low protein diet of 22% if no symptoms if symptoms then 18% that should be fine

Ringo1 01-25-2010 03:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwerten (Post 2971581)
yeah as biopsy will confirm mvd but sounds like she has mvd as numbers are over 25 on post bile acid - I would just do low protein diet of 22% if no symptoms if symptoms then 18% that should be fine
Are you saying you would not do the biopsy? Just go with the low protein food with those numbers?

Just curious as I may soon be facing that same question. I have a feeling my Vet will not want to spay her anyway. He'll either want me to hold off or go to a large facility.

ArmaniMan 01-25-2010 03:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ringo1 (Post 2971808)
Are you saying you would not do the biopsy? Just go with the low protein food with those numbers?

Just curious as I may soon be facing that same question. I have a feeling my Vet will not want to spay her anyway. He'll either want me to hold off or go to a large facility.
yea that is what I am struggling with.

The vet is making a biopsy seem more serious then I realized... they said the incision will be larger (as compared to a simple spay) and the chances for post surgical internal bleeding are very high because of how vascular the liver is... they would perform a clotting factor test beforehand to make sure she is clotting normally but there is still a risk.

The vet is also on the fence, since her numbers were better, she may stay symptom free (she never had any symptoms we only found out about this problem in testing for something else). However, the vets concern is if she does show symptoms in a few years down the road we are looking at a second abdominal surgery.

If I didnt biopsy I would just keep her on a low protein diet which is what I am doing now and pray she remains symptom free.

My vet was going to consult with a specialist I had been seeing prior to this and get back to me, so we will see, I am still not sure what I want to do.

Ringo1 01-25-2010 04:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArmaniMan (Post 2971834)
yea that is what I am struggling with.

The vet is making a biopsy seem more serious then I realized... they said the incision will be larger (as compared to a simple spay) and the chances for post surgical internal bleeding are very high because of how vascular the liver is... they would perform a clotting factor test beforehand to make sure she is clotting normally but there is still a risk.

The vet is also on the fence, since her numbers were better, she may stay symptom free (she never had any symptoms we only found out about this problem in testing for something else). However, the vets concern is if she does show symptoms in a few years down the road we are looking at a second abdominal surgery.

If I didnt biopsy I would just keep her on a low protein diet which is what I am doing now and pray she remains symptom free.

My vet was going to consult with a specialist I had been seeing prior to this and get back to me, so we will see, I am still not sure what I want to do.
Wow that is a tough call. Hopefully your vet and the specialist will help guide you through this.

I might be in your shoes as well as Lucy is symptom free (other than one incident that precipated the testing). So far, my vet hasn't even changed her food.

Good Luck to your little girl. Keep us posted.

dwerten 01-25-2010 05:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArmaniMan (Post 2971834)
yea that is what I am struggling with.

The vet is making a biopsy seem more serious then I realized... they said the incision will be larger (as compared to a simple spay) and the chances for post surgical internal bleeding are very high because of how vascular the liver is... they would perform a clotting factor test beforehand to make sure she is clotting normally but there is still a risk.

The vet is also on the fence, since her numbers were better, she may stay symptom free (she never had any symptoms we only found out about this problem in testing for something else). However, the vets concern is if she does show symptoms in a few years down the road we are looking at a second abdominal surgery.

If I didnt biopsy I would just keep her on a low protein diet which is what I am doing now and pray she remains symptom free.

My vet was going to consult with a specialist I had been seeing prior to this and get back to me, so we will see, I am still not sure what I want to do.
honestly mvd is not that big of deal my dd is 6 years almost with no symptoms and she takes steroids and thyroid meds and still no issues so i personally would not have biopsy just do low protein diet as I never did biopsy at spay and never knew there was an issue at time of spay as vet i do not believe did pre blood work or did an inhouse check - i found out she was mvd at time of going on atopica meds a new vet we see wanted bile acids done and that is where it came up - there really is nothing they will do if it is mvd anyway so why put the dog through that invasive surgery to say yep it is mvd when the numbers already show that - jmho

dwerten 01-25-2010 05:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ringo1 (Post 2971872)
Wow that is a tough call. Hopefully your vet and the specialist will help guide you through this.

I might be in your shoes as well as Lucy is symptom free (other than one incident that precipated the testing). So far, my vet hasn't even changed her food.

Good Luck to your little girl. Keep us posted.
yes some vets do not believe if dog is not having symptoms to change diet but i would still go with 22% protein diet with mvd even if no symptoms

ArmaniMan 01-25-2010 05:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwerten (Post 2971984)
honestly mvd is not that big of deal my dd is 6 years almost with no symptoms and she takes steroids and thyroid meds and still no issues so i personally would not have biopsy just do low protein diet as I never did biopsy at spay and never knew there was an issue at time of spay as vet i do not believe did pre blood work or did an inhouse check - i found out she was mvd at time of going on atopica meds a new vet we see wanted bile acids done and that is where it came up - there really is nothing they will do if it is mvd anyway so why put the dog through that invasive surgery to say yep it is mvd when the numbers already show that - jmho
yeah, this is basically where I am right now... I feel like I already know she has MVD, I dont need a test to tell me and if the specialist I went to hadnt put her through a battery of tests for a problem that is now cleared up, I would never have known about the MVD and would have spayed and continued along as if she never had it. I mean I am glad I know now because I was able to get her on a low protein diet while she was still young but I feel like it is better to just leave it at that for now.:confused:

dwerten 01-25-2010 06:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArmaniMan (Post 2971994)
yeah, this is basically where I am right now... I feel like I already know she has MVD, I dont need a test to tell me and if the specialist I went to hadnt put her through a battery of tests for a problem that is now cleared up, I would never have known about the MVD and would have spayed and continued along as if she never had it. I mean I am glad I know now because I was able to get her on a low protein diet while she was still young but I feel like it is better to just leave it at that for now.:confused:
yeah i agree i do not even supplement with milk thistle or sam-e for mine as she is on so many meds for other issues but it is good to know and she went under for dental at 5 and dentist said she did awesome and i always make sure they use propofol instead of ket-val and they always make sure meds she gets are not too harsh on liver - it is not like you can cure it if it is mvd anyway just keep it under control with low protein diet and if you want you can supplement with juiced zucchini (it cleanses liver) milk thistle and sam-e

Mom to Hot Rod 01-26-2010 09:18 PM
I'm just seeing this. I don't have any input on MVD, just wanted to wish you and your little one well. Sorry that you are having to deal with all of this. Hugs.

Ringo1 01-27-2010 04:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwerten (Post 2971989)
yes some vets do not believe if dog is not having symptoms to change diet but i would still go with 22% protein diet with mvd even if no symptoms
I checked out Wellness Brown rice and Duck and it has a 20% protein level - what do you think about this?

I actually purchased it for my Westie but think that the protein level might be appropriate for her as well.

dwerten 01-27-2010 07:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ringo1 (Post 2973845)
I checked out Wellness Brown rice and Duck and it has a 20% protein level - what do you think about this?

I actually purchased it for my Westie but think that the protein level might be appropriate for her as well.
if no symptoms you can give it a shot but i personally prefer a more highly digestible protein like fish for mvd. Duck is a fatty protein what is fat content on this ? Brown rice is harder for dogs to digest even though it is a better grain. Again if no symptoms as long as below 22% you can give it a shot if it is what you are comfortable with

Ringo1 01-27-2010 08:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwerten (Post 2973997)
if no symptoms you can give it a shot but i personally prefer a more highly digestible protein like fish for mvd. Duck is a fatty protein what is fat content on this ? Brown rice is harder for dogs to digest even though it is a better grain. Again if no symptoms as long as below 22% you can give it a shot if it is what you are comfortable with
Fat is listed as 'not less than 12%'. Right now she is on Purina puppy chow at 27% protein which her Vet wanted me to leave her on until we retest. She is doing well; no symptoms, etc. Maybe I'll put a few kibbles of the Wellness (just a few) on her dinner and see how she does.

dwerten 01-27-2010 08:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ringo1 (Post 2974040)
Fat is listed as 'not less than 12%'. Right now she is on Purina puppy chow at 27% protein which her Vet wanted me to leave her on until we retest. She is doing well; no symptoms, etc. Maybe I'll put a few kibbles of the Wellness (just a few) on her dinner and see how she does.
if vet feels fine with it as there are two schools of thought on this if no symptoms ok to feed higher protein and some feel 22% and less with no symptoms and high liver values - i tend to go with the 22% and my girl with no symptoms is on 18% to be even safer and her post bile went from 73 and 54 down to 26 on the 18% protein so i have seen it works in her. Higher protein diets can lead to bladder stones and yorkies are prone to that as well so i prefer to keep it down for that reason as well

ArmaniMan 01-27-2010 08:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mom to Hot Rod (Post 2973713)
I'm just seeing this. I don't have any input on MVD, just wanted to wish you and your little one well. Sorry that you are having to deal with all of this. Hugs.
Thank You! My collar will be coming in handy for sure after this surgery... dont know what I would do without that thing, I use it far too much :eek:

Now I am stuck again, my vet spoke with the specialist I had been seeing and she still thinks we should do the biopsy.

I have mine on duck and sweet potato right now, I didnt know that about the fatty protein, I was only looking at the protein levels... thank you for that info dwerten, I will be looking for another food. :)

dwerten 01-27-2010 09:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArmaniMan (Post 2974103)
Thank You! My collar will be coming in handy for sure after this surgery... dont know what I would do without that thing, I use it far too much :eek:

Now I am stuck again, my vet spoke with the specialist I had been seeing and she still thinks we should do the biopsy.

I have mine on duck and sweet potato right now, I didnt know that about the fatty protein, I was only looking at the protein levels... thank you for that info dwerten, I will be looking for another food. :)
that is your call about biopsy as you have the ultimate say you have to go with what you are comfortable with -- i would ask that group on liver shunt/mvd and get their take on it - i just do not see where it is going to change the outcome of how you are going to treat - glad i found out after her spay so i never had to make that decision :(

kjc 01-27-2010 10:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwerten (Post 2971984)
honestly mvd is not that big of deal my dd is 6 years almost with no symptoms and she takes steroids and thyroid meds and still no issues so i personally would not have biopsy just do low protein diet as I never did biopsy at spay and never knew there was an issue at time of spay as vet i do not believe did pre blood work or did an inhouse check - i found out she was mvd at time of going on atopica meds a new vet we see wanted bile acids done and that is where it came up - there really is nothing they will do if it is mvd anyway so why put the dog through that invasive surgery to say yep it is mvd when the numbers already show that - jmho
:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Quote:
Originally Posted by dwerten (Post 2971989)
yes some vets do not believe if dog is not having symptoms to change diet but i would still go with 22% protein diet with mvd even if no symptoms
:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

kjc 01-28-2010 10:26 AM
FYI: I had to put my LS dog on Hill's Prescription L/D Dry recently, but I was shocked: 14.5% Protein, 20.5% fat (from Pork) First ingredients as listed on bag: Brewers rice, Pork fat, dried egg product, soybean meal...
The bad ethyoxine(sp) preservative has been removed.
The canned L/D 4.5% protein, 6.0% fat Ingredients:Water, Rice, Egg Product, Chicken Fat, Soybean meal. (I don't have the formula to figure % based on dry weight matter)
My pup loves both foods, is putting on a bit of weight, and LS symptoms on the rapid decline.

kjc 01-28-2010 10:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArmaniMan (Post 2974103)
Now I am stuck again, my vet spoke with the specialist I had been seeing and she still thinks we should do the biopsy.
What does the specialist intend to learn from the liver biopsy? Is something other than MVD suspect?

TLC 01-28-2010 10:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArmaniMan (Post 2974103)
Thank You! My collar will be coming in handy for sure after this surgery... dont know what I would do without that thing, I use it far too much :eek:

Now I am stuck again, my vet spoke with the specialist I had been seeing and she still thinks we should do the biopsy.

I have mine on duck and sweet potato right now, I didnt know that about the fatty protein, I was only looking at the protein levels... thank you for that info dwerten, I will be looking for another food. :)
Who is your Specialist ?? I am on Long Island, my Roxy has MVD, her internal specialist is in Westbury and I wasn't crazy about her. They wanted to biospy too, but I declined, as I felt there is no need to put her thru that invasive surgery, when MVD is treated with diet and supplements.

Roxy was eating RAW during her first BAT which was Pre: 43 and Post: 100.9
Now that she is on a special low but quaility protein and liver aiding supplements, her Pre has come down to below normal, and her Post is in the 60 to 80 range ;)


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