My yorkie has liver problems.

[dwerten]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

Asymptomatic MVD?
Why were two ultrasounds done when they aren't very accurate for this?
Have you started using Denosyl or anything?

yep ultrasounds are a waste of money - i know i did a bunch when dex had pancreatitis and did not show much at $400 a pop. It is really hard to see liver shunt on an ultrasound and the person has to be very good at detecting it on there. Most do not know how to find it and most vets are not real up on liver disease in dogs sadly so best to deal with internal medicine when out of normal realm

[dwerten]

so the dog was losing weight is what started this whole journey? The dog probably feels sick when eating a high protein diet so go to 18% and he may feel better after eating lower protein diet. The two foods you were feeding are a very low quality diet. If you want another opinion on blood work - email jean dodds at hemopet@hotmail.com and have her do a consult of all blood work and do a phone consult as she has studied blood work for 42 years

[smbritton]

Currently he is on Metronidazole and is eating Hills LD Prescription food.

The vet will be calling me back today and I should have all the test results, I will post the results once I have them.

It seems the general consensus from everyone on here is MVD?

Can my dog live a long normal life with MVD?
Should I go to VA Tech? Should Scout continue taking the Anti Biotic? Should he be taking Denosyl or Denestra or some Milk Thistle tablet?

Thanks for all the help.

[Ladymom]

Originally Posted by smbritton

Currently he is on Metronidazole and is eating Hills LD Prescription food.

The vet will be calling me back today and I should have all the test results, I will post the results once I have them.

It seems the general consensus from everyone on here is MVD?

Can my dog live a long normal life with MVD?
Should I go to VA Tech? Should Scout continue taking the Anti Biotic? Should he be taking Denosyl or Denestra or some Milk Thistle tablet?

Thanks for all the help.

I would go to VA Tech if it were my dog. You need a definitive diagnosis and a treatment plan. With the right diet and supplements, a dog with asymptomatic MVD can live a normal life.

[Ellie May]

I'm going to say I probably would not go to VA Tech but that doesn't mean you shouldn't. If I had to take Ellie to a vet school for liver issues, it would be UT. I mean, what is VA Tech going to have to offer you that another internist in your area can't? MRI/ (I wouldn't do one most likely). Scintography (may not be necessary), etc. If you think you want the scintography or VA Tech is very local for you, then I suppose, but if surgery was needed, I'd go to UT.

High bile acids can be caused by any liver functioning problem, so it may not be MVD at all. It is just usually the assumption in Yorkies when no shunt is seen.

[TLC]

Originally Posted by smbritton

Currently he is on Metronidazole and is eating Hills LD Prescription food.

The vet will be calling me back today and I should have all the test results, I will post the results once I have them.

It seems the general consensus from everyone on here is MVD?

Can my dog live a long normal life with MVD?
Should I go to VA Tech? Should Scout continue taking the Anti Biotic? Should he be taking Denosyl or Denestra or some Milk Thistle tablet?

Thanks for all the help.

I am curious to know the Protein C test results.

If he has MVD, yes he can live a normal life. The Metro does help with the bacteria in his in his GI track, but with the addition of Lactulose to help rid the toxins and bacteria thru waste, is really the combo often seen.

The supplements I use are Vetri DMG and Hepato Support.
HomeVet© Natural Pet Care

Hepatosupport (capsules)- contains milk thistle and B vitamins (substitute for Marin)

VetriDMG liquid (substitute for Denosyl)

OR

Denamarin (Denosyl and Marin , but without the yeast and liver) ~ BUT, this has to be given as the whole tablet (can't be broken) and has to be given on an empty stomach. This sometimes is difficult to administer and can cause an upset tummy.

[DAB]

I agree. My little 2 year old yorkie girl had liver shunt surgery on June 9th at Tufts University. She had numerous BAT s done some of which came back super high and another which came back in the normal range. All the tests were sent to the same Idexx lab. An ultrasound done by a very experienced ultrasound person at Tufts showed no shunt yet the Bile Acid tests results remained high! My litlle Emma remained on metronidazole al the while we were trying to figure out what was going on. If I took her off the medication she would begin to vomit a week or so after she stopped. A sinctigraphy test was done ( radioactive dye ) and the shunt was found and so a surgery date was made.

Before surgery, the diagnostic testing and numerous trips to her vet and to Tufts cost me $2500. Money could have been definitely saved had I skipped the ultrasound, which most people here agree is very unreliable---I guess very noninvasive so all vets want to try it first---but, again, I feel it is a waste of money. Of course I was confused when the bile acid test results came back high so I spent more money having more Bile Acid Tests done again! The sinctigraphy test is really no more expensive than the ultrasound but does require an overnight stay at the hospital to asure that all the radiacive dye is out of the dog's system.

Emma is now doing fine. She had a horrible episode of bloody diarrhea mid July and was rushed back to Tufts. She was admitted for a few days. The best guess is that it was related to taking her off the metronidale (as instucted) one month after the LS surgery. They did do an emergency ultrasound as they were concerned that it was shunt related. I questioned having an ultrasound done----wanted a scintigraphy done instead---but she was literally bleedng so badly that I don't think they wanted to do anything invasive. The ultrasound should that the shunt was completely closed off. Remember from prevous posts that she did not have the ameroid ring put on as I expected was going to be done. She was too small for the ring so the surgeon used the special cellophane tape procedure. The tape causes scar tissue to form which gradually closes the shunt. So, the time between the surgery date and the diarrhea episode the shunt had already closed! I did not think it would be that quick.

Well, that bloody diarrhea episode gave me quite the scare---read my previous posts-- but she's better now, a bit lighter to say the least, but as playful as ever. Again, other than the vomiting, she never showed any other common LS symptons. However, I knew from what I learned through many hours and months of research and vet visits to both Emma's vet and to Tufts that her liver shunt would not go away by diet alone. Surgery was tricky but necessary in Emma's case. So now I am watching her closely every day.

As time goes on I am thinking more about her diet. I know high protein and red meat including pork, bison, lamb, etc. is not good for LS dogs and food high in protein is not good for any yorkie period. She needs to remain on IAMS Low Residue kibble---she has been on it for months----until the bile acid tests come back normal. We get her tested in a couple of months. Other than these forums, incliuding the Liver Shunt support group, are feeding their LS dogs special canned or kibble food for LS dogs. The people at Tufts just stated that Emma was to remain on the IAMS for now. Are there any certified doggie NUTRITIONIST out there who might care to comment? Should she keep on the IAMS forever? I know people who do feed the low residue kibble to their dogs even though they have never had any medical issues. What say you?

Emma was due to see the vet for her annual wellness exam, a rabies shot, lyme disease shot, and heartworm test. After consulting with Emma's vet, I have postponed that apointment and am waiting for a reply from the internist at Tufts concerning when she should have the inoculations. Once I get a reply I am thinking about having Emma retested to see what is in her system---maybe last year's shots are still viable. My daughter who lives in NYC has a tiny yorkie with kidney issues-----he always is tested before ANY new or booster shots are given----and if the shot is not needed, he does not get it!

One more note, I been very careful in making sure that all doctors from Tufts keep in touch with Emma's vet---they have been wonderful making sure all records are sent to my vet. Even phone calls have been made between doctors. So wonderful to see that kind of cooperation. Hope it happens everywhere!

Best of luck!
DAB

[smbritton]

Ok I just got some results back,

Protein C test was 4.7 normal range is 0-7.6

BAT test after fasting was 193.6 then 2 1/2 hours after eating was tested again and was 179.3.

He has never had head pressing, seizures, or any other syptoms of shunts.

The options are the Liver biopsy, Scintigraphy or the MRI?

They are sending all the results to VA Tech and refering me there?

What should I have done? I feel like I'm getting no where with the Vets?

[Ladymom]

Originally Posted by smbritton

Ok I just got some results back,

Protein C test was 4.7 normal range is 0-7.6

BAT test after fasting was 193.6 then 2 1/2 hours after eating was tested again and was 179.3.

He has never had head pressing, seizures, or any other syptoms of shunts.

The options are the Liver biopsy, Scintigraphy or the MRI?

They are sending all the results to VA Tech and refering me there?

What should I have done? I feel like I'm getting no where with the Vets?

You need to go to the vet school at VA Tech at this point. They will probably repeat all the tests anyway so you are just wasting time and money at this point with your local vets.

[dwerten]

Originally Posted by smbritton

Ok I just got some results back,

Protein C test was 4.7 normal range is 0-7.6

BAT test after fasting was 193.6 then 2 1/2 hours after eating was tested again and was 179.3.

He has never had head pressing, seizures, or any other syptoms of shunts.

The options are the Liver biopsy, Scintigraphy or the MRI?

They are sending all the results to VA Tech and refering me there?

What should I have done? I feel like I'm getting no where with the Vets?

if the gall bladder contracts the bats will be off but those are high - what % of protein are you feeding? Also they screwed up the post bat as I had them done with jean dodds who knows alot about blood work and it is 2 HOURS on the dot not 2 1/2 hrs so afraid they are not doing correctly if they did 2 1/2 hrs. The protein C test came back fine so here is what i would do if it were my dog. I would put on low protein diet and since dog is not having any symptoms i would wait 6 months and re-do tests at VA tech later after one low protein diet for 6 months. Keep the protein at 18% as dd bats went down after being on low protein.

Those other tests are more invasive and honestly the dog is not having symptoms from what you are saying unless there is something i am missing so why put them through it. Take a break and if you start seeing symptoms then go to VA tech and if it were me i would spend the extra money and deal with an internal medicine specialist

jmho as i have always read to treat the dog not the blood work as many things can affect blood work and if not done properly then test results are off

[dwerten]

Originally Posted by smbritton

Currently he is on Metronidazole and is eating Hills LD Prescription food.

The vet will be calling me back today and I should have all the test results, I will post the results once I have them.

It seems the general consensus from everyone on here is MVD?

Can my dog live a long normal life with MVD?
Should I go to VA Tech? Should Scout continue taking the Anti Biotic? Should he be taking Denosyl or Denestra or some Milk Thistle tablet?

Thanks for all the help.

my dd has mvd and she is on a low protein diet only - she has never had any symptoms as well and still hasn't and on temarilp which affects the liver but she did not have those high of bats either -- she was pre 3 and post 73, 54 and 27 after eating low protein diet- the key is - is your dog having symptoms. If not why put the dog through the stress of the tests. If symptoms you go further. Doing denamarin is safe that is sam-e and milk thistle combined. Also juicing zucchini and celery will cleanse the liver. I would first work with diet of 18% - again only if dog is not having symptoms that is the key to my recommendation.

[Ladymom]

Originally Posted by smbritton

He has never had head pressing, seizures, or any other syptoms of shunts.

Didn't you say that the ultrasound showed two kidney stones? And that his liver looked mottled? That combined with a problem gaining weight suggests he isn't totally asymptomatic.

[DAB]

Zucchini and celery------ does your yorkie drink it w/o any side effects? Has any one else here tried it? I may drink it myself! Thanks.

DAB

[smbritton]

He is on low protein Hills LD dog food and loves it!

The first ultra sound did show two small stones although the Vet said they were so small they weren't an issue. The Liver looks mottled under ultra sound.

My dog is fine, couldn't be better. He has put on 1 pound in the last couple of weeks and he only weighs 7.6 pounds. If it wasn't for the BAT test results I wouldn't think anything is wrong with him?

Although, I have read how some dogs can have shunts or MVD and show no signs, so maybe the Hills LD and some kind of Milk Thistle or Densyl for the rest of his life maybe fine???

I'm so freakin confused

Also he has had puppies which we have given to family members and Charlie his daughter lives with us. Will they now inherit whatever he has? I may have to contact everyone who has his puppies?

[Ladymom]

Originally Posted by smbritton

He is on low protein Hills LD dog food and loves it!

The first ultra sound did show two small stones although the Vet said they were so small they weren't an issue. The Liver looks mottled under ultra sound.

My dog is fine, couldn't be better. He has put on 1 pound in the last couple of weeks and he only weighs 7.6 pounds. If it wasn't for the BAT test results I wouldn't think anything is wrong with him?

Although, I have read how some dogs can have shunts or MVD and show no signs, so maybe the Hills LD and some kind of Milk Thistle or Densyl for the rest of his life maybe fine???

I'm so freakin confused

Also he has had puppies which we have given to family members and Charlie his daughter lives with us. Will they now inherit whatever he has? I may have to contact everyone who has his puppies?

Since he has been bred, I think it is very important to find out why his BAT is so high. All his puppies need to have BAT's too. Both MVD and liver shunts are genetic.

Asymptomatic MVD dogs do very well with a diet change and supplements. Again, though, you need to find out what yo are dealing with before you know how to treat it.