Should all Pet Quality puppies be altered?
 

I am posting this because I am a firm believer that puppymills and other irresponsible breeding would take place if pups were s/n before leaving the homes. I truly believe it would, just wanted to know the opinion of others.

Hugs,
Irene

I agree with you that they should be s/n before leaving the breeder. Brutus wasn't but we did it at 6 months. The only penalty for us if we didn't would be that we couldn't register him with the AKC. I don't think that's much of a penalty if I wanted to breed him.

I voted YES -- all pet quality pups should be spayed/neutered. :thumbup:

Type-O

ok I am a little bit confused, when you guys say "pet quality" do you mean that they are not up to show standards? And are pet quality not "good quality" I am just a little bit confused on what you mean. Also if they are "pet quality" does that mean that there is something wrong with them?

That they were sold to someone as a PET by the breeder, for whatever reason.

Irene

I think by 'pet quality' they are talking about dogs that are off breed standard, too tiny to breed (YES tiny = don't breed!) or purchased solely for the purpose of a sweet little confidant and pal. I am just assuming, I may be wrong.

I think they should be s/n, especially coming from a pet mill. However, at the cost of s/n I don't forsee this as being likely to happen. I just paid $250 to have my little girl spayed. I think it would be GREAT, but unlikely in my opinion.

If a yorkie does not meet the standard then, yes, they should

I voted no. I don't think all should, but I do understand where you are coming from.
Toby is pet quality, and he wasn't neutered when I got him, and didn't have limited registration either. I am debating whether or not I am going to neuter him, b/c I am afraid of the change in personality, and of drastic weight gain. I have experience with getting 2 dogs fixed, both dogs personality changed, they both became very lazy, and both gain a substancial amount of weight even though they weren't eating any more than usual, and were getting the same amount of exersize.
Don't get me wrong I know where you are coming from, but I am not for sure if I will get Toby fixed at all, unless he starts marking, but so far he is doing awesome with house training. I have no other dogs in the home, but if there were and there was a chance he could cause a pregnancy, he would def. be fixed.
I hope noone bashes me on this, I am just saying that under my personal circumstances, I dunno if I would, but I do think that it's generally a good idea to have them fixed.

I voted yes! If you have no plans to breed or show I don't
really understand the reluctance. At my last obedience
class one of the other members dogs came into heat and
she didn't have a clue. She even had to ask if she needed
to keep her male and female seperate. The lack of knowledge
drives me beyond crazy! I would welcome getting a puppy
that was already altered because my interest is soley to
have a new family member. It was horrible on me to take
Ted to be neutered and if I could have saved those feelings
of worry it would have been worth gold to me.

Only if they don't meet standard. There are alot of dogs that meet standard that are not 'show worthy.' I see nothing wrong with breeding them so that others, not interested in show, can have pets. I am sure that in a perfect world, we would all have Yorkies that could win in any ring, but in this world, that ain't gonna happen.

Let me add this...what if you (speaking third party) sold a puppy as a "PET"? Regardless of the quality. The agreement between the breeder and buyer was that the puppy was going to be a PET. Let's for get everything else for a second. And think of all the puppies that are sold with S/N contracts no actual enforcement is where I see the problem..anyone agree or disagree with that? Just curious what the thoughts out there on that?

If I was a breeder and I was selling my pups as PETS only, I would spay and neuter them before they left my home. If I was selling a pup to someone who shows dogs, then obviously I would leave the dog unaltered.

I personally think spay/neuter contracts are silly because someone can easily SAY that they had their dog spayed/neutered but in reality could be lying. For my own piece of mind, I would have it done myself before they go to their new home.

Jenn! Exactly my thoughts!..CKC (Continental Kennel club) would be happy to registered a litter that has parents that are Limited AKC registered..

uuummm....hhhhhmmmmm....
 

I do not have a spay/neuter contract with Wosie. My breeder does not sell her dogs with one, and her point of view is if you pay for a pup, you can do what you want with it. Is she a BYB? Maybe. Her facility was awesome with some high tech features that made me quite confortable that she does not consider herself as such.

I do agree with Jennifer, and if breeders are so adamant about the fact that the pups should be spayed or neutered, then the pup should not leave the breeder without this being done. Otherwise, it's all talk, no action. The cost of spay/neuter would not raise the price of a pup all that much, and proves that the breeder is indeed a responsible inhabitant of this earth that has too many homeless pups now.

Breeders: How do you control your spay/neuter contracts? Do you withhold AKC (or whatever country) registration? What do you do to guarantee that this has been done by your buyer?

Would I purchase a pup that had already been spayed/neutered? I would. Would my husband? Probably not. We bought a Sheltie 12 years ago, and she came from an incredible championship line on both the sire and dam's side. The breeder sold the pups at one price with a spay/neuter contract, and at a higher price without, and if you did not give her the pick of any first litter, the price was higher still. With her it was not a question of protecting the breed, but of money. But was she a BYB? Not at all. She had all home-raised gorgeous dogs that she had invested a boatload of time, money, and energy (showing) in.

I do agree that in the interest of protecting the breed and cutting down on homeless animals, perhaps enforcing spay/neuter contracts is a good thing. But for the price I paid for my pup, I would prefer to make that decision myself. I am happy that my breeder agrees.

I am not trying to bait or entice anyone to kill me. I love being here and don't want to upset anyone. But I know this thread is going to incite all kinds of riot anyhow, so OK, I'm ready! BLAST AWAY if you must! :p

I'm sorry but I forgot to add one thing to my post. If I had a pup that was a good candidate for breeding (meaning that he/she was within the breed standard and all the necessary testing was done and the results that came back were all positive), I would sell that dog unaltered to a very REPUTABLE breeder. This is the only other occasion in which I would sell an unaltered dog.

I do agree with you. :thumbup: I have not had to make this choice yet as a breeder, but I have already thought about it. Should one of the pups develope something that should not be passed to further generations, then yes, there will be a s/n agreement for the new owner. If it is obvious that the pup is going to be too small to breed as an adult, then yes, there will be a s/n agreement. But just for general purposes, no. If that is for you as a breeder, go ahead, just what I follow.

Too many accidents I vote yes.

If all yorkies were show quality then more than half of us would not be able to afford a yorkie, so I voted no. Most of us only have pet quality yorkies, me included.

OK, so you sold a pup with a S/N contract.... You checked the box for limited registration.... You ask for a S?N cert from their vet.... How do you know its really done? Someone else asked this earlier...

This is how my Grandmother did it so many years ago. You don't get your papers untill I get a visit from you with dog at your side and S/N cert from vet in hand. She would trade the Cert from the vet, which she would keep on file, for the registration papers. It was also in her contract that the owner had untill____ date to have the dog S/N, or the owner would forfit ownership of said dog, and the dog would be returned to the breeder. All funds exchanged would be forfited as well.

When you left with one of her Poodles, you knew what was what! You had that dog fixed or else! She did sell unalterd dogs from time to time, but only to other show breeders. Her contract was very clearly worded and scared off alot of buyers, but she only had 2 or 3 litters a year and never had a problem placing her Poo babies. Yeah, she had all kinds of nicknames for them!

I voted YES - but only if it is possible. I mean, dont' most dogs have to wait until like 5-6 months of age before being s/n? I would definitely not want to wait that long to get my puppy! Hmm....nice idea though. But really, is it OK to do that when they're really young?

I voted "yes". If the pet quality pup is S/N by the breeder it is at least seen that time by a competitent vet! Our breeder includes S/N in her contract although she trusted us to have Toto's spay done since we use the same vet as she. She sold one several years ago and instead of bringing the pup back for her to have it spayed, they just took it to their regular vet who knew "squat" about small dogs. It never woke up!!! ... she still tears up when she thinks about her poor baby! That's why it's so very important to make sure you use a vet knowledgeable in small animals!!

pups
 

Unless I know the person well, I do not give any papers until the pup is spay/neutered. It does not stop them from breeding the Yorkie, but it will stop most..a letter from the vet is expected after the altering..but you would be surprised how many tell me not to bother sending the papers..why give AKC the money for a spay/neutered pet?

One problem I find is getting breeders to agree on what is breed quality. Reading and comparing to the standard is not so black and white. Judges can not agree on color or texture half the time.
If a Yorkie has a low tail set, does that make it not breed standard? How about too light, too dark, too laid back, on and on...I want to vote YES, to spay/neutering pet quality..I also want to be the one who gets to judge what is pet or what is not..JMO Some breeders do not feel a dog is breed quality unless it is show quality. Others give the standard a very wide range of what is acceptable.

Ok, I really think that most of you guys are not thinking... How many of you out there have "show quality dogs" You know if they have big ears, an overbite or under bit,not a perfect square (9" highX 9" long) Perfect silky coats, correct ears, dark steel blue color, etc... They are not show quality! Did everyones dog come from show dogs, or show quality parents?? I would think not. SO, if all the pet quality dogs were S/N then you wouldn't have your perious furbabies.. Yes, I agree that these crappy puppy mills need to be stopped, but that doesn't mean that we should S/N all pet quality dogs.. My Bell is too tall,(to be show quality) but she has a decent coat, great face, nice ear set.. So should I have had her spayed rather than breed her.. I would guarantee you that the people who bought her babies are very happy with them.
Gosh, look what you made me do. I was suppose to start be nice!! LOL :eek:

Even the dogs in the show ring are not perfect. no such thing. they are the best examples of the breed standard. I think all breeders should only consider breeding dogs that are good examples of the breed. these dogs are getting more deluted by the minute b/c everyone is breeding anything with a tail and a couple ears. When someone says they are getting a Yorkie they should be able to believe it will LOOK like a Yorkie!

I believe it limited registration for pet quality pups but do not believe in breeder doing it before delivery. Some of these dogs are too tiny at 12 or even 16 weeks for the spay surgery.

Yes .

All my puppies are spayed or neutered before leaving my home . There are too many peoples using pets for their breeding program because they are " cute ".
Why do you think , there are several peoples asking if their little ones are " true Yorkies " or all other terms used ?

With quality , a Yorkie can be recognize at first sight .

Ditto! Another thought that I have had or questioned is what would happen to the dispositions/personalities of yorkies? Would the calmer personalities seldom be found and the snappier yorkies be found more frequently? Just a thought. :)

Karen, you just echoed my husband
 

While writing my post, my hubby and I were discussing this thread, and he said almost exactly what you just stated. I just read your post to him, and he said "right on, Karen!"

We STILL think you are nice! :D

I have to agree.

Who decides which pup is "show" quality and which is not? At what age? What does that person have to do to demonstrate their knowledge of the breed?

Sounds a bit too Nazi-ish to me.