This was the post that I thought gave very good advise from a legal standpoint. I am not sure what open forum she used or if in fact she used the review section of puppyfind but none the less good information. Thanks ehunney.

Originally Posted by ehunney
I'm so sorry to hear about your baby being sick, tucker, teddy and I send hugs !!! What I did first was post all the info about the broker, who posed as a breeder, and what happened to me and the pup that died, on a online public forum, where I posted the brokers name,where I found her listings and my contact info. Soon complaints and similar stories started pouring into my email inbox. Some of us filed with the BBB, and have the state general investigating her as we speak. We also had her listings removed from puppyfind.com by leaving our horror stories on there review section(puppyfind.com was her main means of selling her puppies). These poor babies suffer SO much because of careless greedy brokers and puppymills. The first thing i would do would be to file with the BBB (www.BBB.com), they weren't much help, but it's always good to have your complaint on public record, and then contact the animal control in the puppy mill's, or pets store area, and report them as possibly having an outbreak of kennel cough. Also contact the mill's or petstore's local attorney general's office, and file a report. Also, try googleing the place where you got your baby, and see what comes up, there may be other people who have suffered the same as you, and find a way to contact them. A support system is always great, plus others might have additional info that can help you. Also, educate others about this puppymill mill or petstore. I actually stopped a yorkietalk member from buying a puppy from this puppy broker who posed as a breeder Doing this will not only save others heartcache, but it will also hurt there business and slowly force them to stop what they are doing to these innocent pups . I hope it works out for you and your baby. If I can help in any other way , please ask!!! hope this helps!!!

Actually it is very easy to sue, winning the case is another situation. It still takes lawyers and $$$ to fight a lawsuit even if you win you lose because of the amount of $$$ you had to pay out

actually, i am talking about the same ;) . life is too short :rolleyes: not too many people want to spend their money for lowyer because somebody said something on public forum.
especially if it is TRUE.

i forgot THE MOST IMPORTANT

A REPUTABLE breeder ALWAYS sells pups with spayed/neutered cotract :thumbup:

I'd like to disagree with this. there are a lot of reputable breeders who don't ALWAYS have a spay/neuter contract. And, just a question, what if someone sold show pups? If someone shows their dog, they are not neutered/spayed. The idea that all reputable breeders should always sell pups with a spay/ neuter contract should not be correct. JMO

I mean PET quality, NOT show class puppies or for breeding. Sorry, I didn't explain correctly :)
Because BOB breed not good quality yorkies that is NOT right.
Only standard and good quality dogs without genetic defects must be breeding.

OK! sorry about that, thanks for clearing it up! :)

I think it's a great idea. Once place for people to find everything they need! :thumbup:

Well to answer some questions - we already have a Breeding Section ...that isn't the subject here though it seems to be in these last threads...

the section would just be a place to share information we have either learned.... or want to share.... and most of the posts would revolve around much of what we already post about ...the importance of helping to stop Puppy Mills - Poems - Pet Stores Etc.

DomLee - you asked "HOW do you think you can help by posting up this information?"

That is simple - We can help by EDUCATING PEOPLE on not shopping in Pet Stores and helping slow down MASS BREEDING... thereby helping millions of dogs who live in hell

If one person a day saw a Post about Puppy Mills on this site - and learned NOT to shop in Pet Stores - do you realize how many people that could add up to ?

I don't want to repeat myself.... but too many good posts get missed in General Discussion and Off Topic - a small section on Puppy Mills be a place where the information would be there for anyone to see..at anytime.

I'm Confused
 

You know Villette, I don't understand why we are even having this "discussion." Why on earth would ANYONE object to a section on puppy mill awareness? I personally think we should have TEN sections on puppy mills. This is a topic that NEEDS attention. Why are people objecting to it even though we already have the Mill Busters website? Wow, big deal. There are MANY websites and rescue websites which discuss in detail the horror of puppy mills, pet stores and puppy brokers. But one more (in addition to the already existing ones) only helps to further the cause and spread awareness. So how can it be a bad thing?

Sorry if I seem dense but I just don't understand why there is even a discussion about this. It should AUTOMATICALLY be accepted and appplauded!

you said it jennifer, you go girls!!!!!!!!!!

I agree, totally,,, Its not really a question of if we think its a good Idea or not.... Its more of a question of .... WHY DONT WE HAVE A SECTION HERE YET?? HUH???? :confused: :confused: :D

The "No" response I would not vote for because I don't feel that way; I do however feel like the link to Millbusters.com is enough IF we can make a sticky or a section dedicated to directing people to Millbusters with maybe a preview of the info that Millbusters holds.

Way to go Jen my thoughts exactly!! :D

I always pay attention that people KNOW the word PUPPY MILLS,
however they know NOTHING who is who ;) .
They say:" I bougth my pup from a breeder". When we start speak about some details, it is SO obvious that that breeder is typical BOB/small puppy miller.
But person proud that she/he didn't take her pup from a pet store/puppy mill :D .
But what is the difference??? :rolleyes: :eek:
What I am trying to say is...
Telling people about puppy mills is GREAT idea. But we also should explain who is good breeder and who is not. Bad breeder is BOB or small puppy miller. Some people think that puppy mills is something dirty and massive. I took my pup from a very clean space ;) but she is MASS producer. I didn't see that, she is not stupid. She took some pups to her clean house, but all her dogs live in crates ALL THE TIME.
People should know something like that...

Well Kristy...I wish I could agree but after Millbusters died down and we posted threads HERE about Puppy Mills - I really did get pm's from people who just had NO IDEA these conditions existed -

Many people come here to just hang out and don't travel around the net looking up info - if the Information right here WITH a link to Millbusters... I think we could inform many more people than we are right now.

I would just love it if the whole country would boycott Pet Stores ...they are the main player in the horrible business called Puppy Mills

omichka...you have a good point and I'm sure there are many people who feel the same about a breeder they may have dealt with

I didn't answer the poll because there wasn't a category I fit into.

The first reason I question it is that I think it might hinder our efforts to educate people who come on here because currently you can post about puppymill news in the General Discussion section which gets the most traffic. If admin sets up a separate section we will then HAVE TO POST all puppymill info there and a lot of people who never go beyond the General or My Yorkie sections will never see it. The newbies, until they get comfortable with the site, generally stay in General and the regulars may not be as inclined to go to the Puppymill section if they only have a limited time on the computer. I think what happened to Millbusters is evidence of this phenomenon. JMHO.

I also don't like the fact that some seem to link "All Pet Stores" with puppymills which just isn't the case. Not ALL PET STORES get their puppies from puppymills as you know, Jennifer, from your experience with Quality Canines as do so many others on here as well. There are plenty of small Mom and Pop type pet stores all over the country that don't get their puppies from puppymills so I will always advise people not to get a puppy from a pet store that buys from puppy mills but I would not blanketedly say...."Do not buy from pet stores".

As for the legal issues that have been raised, I have always been concerned about the amount of libel and defamation that goes on on internet forums and I have tried to help members to avoid subjecting themselves and/or the forum owners to potential lawsuits. The way to accomplish this is to only post about what you have personal experience with, not rumor or hearsay, and use the words "in my opinion" when commenting negatively about someone or some business entitiy. This way you are not saying that it is TRUE, but only that it is your opinion and a lawsuit would be difficult for the plaintiff to prevail in.

soCal ...Too many threads lately have been closed after numerous debates and this is just to get a feel on how people feel about a section here - nothing else

I hope this thread doesn't get shut down - I think just a vote would be great and if you feel 'no' that's fine ....but let's not turn this into a legal thing OK ?

quote by Socal~"also don't like the fact that some seem to link "All Pet Stores" with puppymills which just isn't the case. Not ALL PET STORES get their puppies from puppymills as you know, Jennifer, from your experience with Quality Canines as do so many others on here as well. There are plenty of small Mom and Pop type pet stores all over the country that don't get their puppies from puppymills so I will always advise people not to get a puppy from a pet store that buys from puppy mills but I would not blanketedly say...."Do not buy from pet stores".


My question is,,,, Do you really believe, that if you ask ( a petstore) " Where do you get your pups from?" do you really think that any pet store would say " Oh yes, we get them from a puppy mill." So, how will you know the difference, between a so called good Pet store and a bad one that supplies dogs from mills?? My thinking is NO pet store should sell dogs,, then the demand would not be there,, and the Puppy Mill business would not be thriving. JMO>

The anti-puppymill websites all have the necessary info and paperworkk to ask a pet store for to verify that the breeders are NOT puppymills. I will find a direct link and post it later.

I respect your opinion on the fact that YOU don't feel ANY pet stores should sell puppies, but you will not get unanimous agreement on that from this membership as a whole since there are too many who have dealt with reputable pet stores and will continue to do so. Just do a search on Quality Canines in Brooklyn on this site and see how many of our New York members got their puppies there and rave about the owner.

Thank you - SO WHAT if a mom and pop store can't sell dogs !

People make IMPULSE BUYS in Pet Stores ! Why do you think there are so many unwanted dogs in our country ....and they won't just shut down some of them - the sale of live animals needs to stop all together and Kim - nothing you say to me will change my mind on that - Go ahead and defend the Pet Stores if you want cause I'm just done with you - we've always had this debate and I'm just too tired to get into it with you anymore Kim.

They either BAN the Sales of Live Animals or they don't ....but there is no in between because there is no way to say who is a 'GOOD' pet store and who is a 'bad' pet store. You're dreaming if you think that will happen.... just like I'm dreaming we can help Puppy Mill dogs with this site.

Quality Canine
 

Quality Canine is a small mom and pop store. They ONLY sell puppies -- no cats, fish, reptiles, etc. like most pet stores sell. Ivan generally only sells Maltese, Yorkshire Terriers, Pomeranians and Chihuahuas. However, he can "special order" a different breed for someone because he has a lot of contacts through his years of breeding Maltese and his wife breeding Yorkies, plus attending numerous dog shows. He carefully screens all his breeders and he only uses breeders who produce 1 litter per year per female -- meaning if a female is breed twice in a year, he will no longer continue to do business with that breeder because he believes (as do I) that the female needs a break between litters for health reasons. He's an all around nice and honest man. His dogs are clean, well fed (you can see this from their little round bellies lol) and VERY playful and affectionate. He's constantly kissing and hugging them. I've seen it first hand. I don't compare Ivan's shop to ANY pet store. In my opinion, he's WAY above pet store standards.

oh and Kim - this is a poll on whether people would like to see a Section HERE about Puppy Mills - I'm well aware of what's on the net....

This Thread will probably be closed over debating (Again) so I just wanted to say thanks to those who voted because I did get an idea how people felt

So far... there is no section here on Puppy Mill awareness and that's just a shame.... but it's not my call.

I'm completely agree w/ SoCalyorkiLvr thus far.

I agree that creating a seperate section, and moving all pertinent "Puppy Mill" related threads into this section...will actually do more harm than good. What you end up doing is...confining/isolating the topics to one area of the forum. While this is good for ease of use,...the average individual is lazy and doesn't really notice things that don't stand out. Hence why we have "Sale sale sale" ads in the paper every week...and why "XXX" needs to be repeated 3 times for people to get the hint. I think it is much more effective to leave the various threads where they are and make annoucements as necessary.

Regarding people jumping the gun ready to declare "Don't buy from a pet store" ...here is a prime example: http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20008

actually the only item you listed that could possibly be breaking the law is

- she sells pupps in 6-7 weeks
some states have laws against selling a puppy under 8 weeks....nothing else you listed is against the law....if it not against the law. then accuscations can bring a lawsiut down rather quickly. if the harmful words are damaging to a breeders biz and the words are witten. well they will win a lawsuit. is anyone ready to lose their home? it is a strong posibilty if this site names breeders there will be a lawsuit zulu

The point is it is a pet store and therefore NOT ALL PET STORES are bad. Here is another thread started by a member here in support of some pet stores.http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/sho...uppymills+stop

...and a thread I started on what you can do to stop puppymills....http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/sho...uppymills+stop

...and the pet store that sued for defamation and won....http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/sho...uppymills+stop

Thanks DomLee for your link as well. We all want to stop abuse toward animals but we need to do it responsibly and without damaging innocent people and reputable businesses through over generalization.

Zulu, I am not talking about the law. It was just recommendation.
If you spend a liitle bit time, you will find A LOT of information who is Back Yard Breeder/Puppy Miller and who is Responsible REPUTABLE Breeder.
No judgement, only opinions. People have their own decision.

HOW anyone can say having a section on Puppy Mills would do HARM makes no sense to me - I knew this would turn into a debate so I will bite my lip and just post This - http://www.petstorecruelty.org/boycottpetland.htm

Let Me Play Before I Die (Words of a Puppy Mill Dog)
by Jim Willis, 2002

'Tis lonely here in prison,
I dream of sun, of fields,
I saw them from a window once,
but I don't know how they feel.
I've never known a caress,
a friend, a bone, a toy,
I'd happily companion,
a human girl or boy.

But some men have decided,
with selfishness and greed,
that my fate shall be a cage,
and for my keep, I'll breed.

What should fuel this folly?
My kind may bark in vain.
We care not for your commerce,
and few know of our pain.
We're hidden well from justice,
for our freedom some may cry.
God grant me, please, just one request--
Let me play once.... before I die.

Thank you for posting that poem, Villette. I really don't understand why there is an argument at all about this. :confused: I know for a fact no one here would want their dog living like that, everyone here thinks its cruel to treat dogs like that, I would hope anyway. Well, if it's not good enough for your dogs, why is it good enough for someone else's? This discussion isnt about pet stores or breeders, its about should there be a section devoted to puppy mills or not.

[Quote=SoCalyorkiLvr] The point is it is a pet store and therefore NOT ALL PET STORES are bad. Here is another thread started by a member here in support of some pet stores.http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/sh...Puppymills+stop


Here is the same member later down the line. She came to believe the puppy came from a puppymill. It is very easy to be fooled and most people will believe what the pet stores tell them.

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/sho...337#post176337

Itspuppyluv - thank you for finding that link

This thread was asking how people FEEL about yorkietalk adding a section on Mills - I know we have great information all the time and just would love to see it in a place where people can LEARN.

this is not a legal issus it's a MORAL ISSUE

If anyone has doubts as to how puppy mill dogs live - SEE Pictures and sorry for posting these ....they are so so sad

but HOW can someone NOT want to educate people that come to this site and don't even know this is happening ?