I love what you have said! The governement has no right to dictate all the decisions that we as pet owners make, i mean to me its scary that they can even pass such laws, because its a slow transition to us not having any say as to what we can and cannot do any longer. There are situations where a spay or neuter surgery should not be done on a dog at all due to health concerns, its just not a one size fits all surgey.

All dogs/cats no matter what the size need to be tubed for surgery. It keeps an airway open at all times. If that tube wasn't there and your puppy stopped breathing there would be no way to properly breath for the pup and keep him alive. Then while the vet is scrubbed in for surgery, and the pup isn't breathing, a stressed out tech would have to put a tube in with the dog on its back during the surgery and probably cause damage to the trachea that way.

If done properly, intubating a a patient for surgery should NOT harm the trachea. I've personally never seen a dog develop CT after having been intubated.

I'm sorry both your yorkies had/have this problem but i wouldn't blame the vet for tubing the dog. I'd be thanking him for doing everything possible to ensure a safe surgery.

:thumbup:

Yes, I understand that this procedure is in place for good reasons. Both my dogs were intubated for all procedures. It was my breeder, who has been breeding and showing for many, many years, who told me that she NEVER has any of her dogs intubated. I don't know what vet she uses, but she told me this 8 years ago, and then again a few weeks ago. Her dogs go to Westminster, Eukanuba dog shows and so forth. One was even an American/Canadian Champion dog, so I would think she knows a thing or two about this procedure and would not tell me dangerous things to do with my only furbaby. I'm not saying I would not have it done again, just that I wonder if this could have irritated her airway.

it is possible for the tube to cause irritation and if the tube was put in wrong, roughly, or too big then yes it will cause damage. i'm not saying it can't happen.

your breeder is just that, a breeder/exhibitor, not a vet. In a situation like surgery and intubation, i'm gonna go with the vet's professional opinion.

Well considering that my first dog developed pyometra because we didn't spay her, I'm a huge fan for spaying/neutering. It's not only the responsible thing to do but it can save your pet's life.

I will always have my dogs spayed/neutered if I'm not breeding them. And I also require all my puppies to be spayed/neutered by their new owners.

Why take the risk of having them develop pyometra or cancer because you didn't spay or neuter them?

Also they do seem much happier after being spayed/neutered as they don't have to deal with all those hormones.

I would like to add at 1 years old, your boy is still very young. Count your blessings that he hasn't showed any marking or aggressive behavior but don't expect it to stay that way. They all mature at different times. My friend's male didn't show any of these behaviors until he was about 2 years old.

It is actually put in and hooked up to a respirator not just there to keep airway open. And a stressed out tech should not be doing it.

general anesthesia paralyzes the body and renders the patient unconscious. When I say paralyze, I mean the vast majority of the muscles in the body are unable to move. The heart is one exception, as it will continue to beat on its own throughout the surgery, but the diaphragm, the muscle that makes it possible to fill the lungs with air, is unable to move. If the muscles that help fill the lungs can't move, then you are unable to breathe.

If you have ever gotten the "wind knocked out of you" and have that scary feeling of not being able to take a breath, then you've experience a very brief paralysis of the diaphragm muscles.

So, to make surgery possible, the lungs have to be filled with air so they can do their job. This is accomplished by putting a tube, called an endotracheal tube, into the mouth and down into the airway of the patient, a process called intubation. The end of the tube that is left outside of the mouth is connected to a ventilator, which provides breaths to the lungs. The lungs continue to function normally, but the ventilator does the work of the paralyzed muscles.

Once the surgery is over and the anesthesia has worn off, the tube is removed and the muscles of the body return to their normal function.

Did you know pyometra is actually rare? It is caused from not being bred.

Did you know HUMANS can get pyometra? So I guess we should all have our female organs removed to keep it from possibly happening. Or keep us from getting uterine or ovarian cancer.

And men of course would be so much better behaved if they were castrated;)

And just because a dog is not neutered does not mean he will be aggressive or mark. I grew up with all intact dogs, male and female and we never had that issue, ever! My dads dogs lived to be old dogs of 15-17 years old. All hunting dogs.

I have seen plenty of neutered dogs that mark and are aggressive. I also know of plenty of dogs to get cancer even after being spayed.

Also, it is NOT breast cancer, it is mammary gland cancer and they can get it spayed or not.

oops, I didn't finish that sentence.. When a female dog is allowed to go through heat cycles without being bred the lining in the uterus can thicken.

As Intact female's age the uterus may become progressively thickened and cystic from repeated hormonal stimulation. This condition called cystic endometrial hyperplasia.

Uterine secretions are greatest during diestrus, the period following estrus, when blood levels of progesterone hormone are maximal. Some inflammatory cells are always present in the secretions.

Despite frequent opportunities for bacterial contamination from the lower reproductive tract, the fluid accumulation in the thickening uterus remains free of bacterial infection in most dogs.

Pyometra occurs when the excessive uterine secretions become infected with bacteria.

I just went through this with a rescue we took in a couple of months ago so I have researched it to death..

I choose to spay and neuter when I am not breeding a dog or female dog.

And I stand firm in my belief that it should remain a CHOICE and not forced on us by yet another law taking our rights away.

My Grandmother had an intact male dog, who was the sweetest thing ever he was 5 years old and did not display any "negative" male dog behaviors! She decided to get him fixed because her vet recommended since he was aging, the next time i went to visit her and her dog after the neuter surgery he was a little demon! He lifted his leg up relentlessly in front of us and pee'd on everything! he was evil towards my mother and younger sisters female dogs. When ever we caught him chewing something he was not supposed to chew on, and tried to take it from him he would bite us. I personally think that the surgery made him worst. My grandmother feel terrible because she feels like she has saddened her little shadow and made him angry with her. He isnt active at all, like he used to and he is turning fat.


My dog is an angel and he will continue to be that way... Its completely ridiculous to say that my now sweet and great dog will change just because he doenst get fixed! There are plenty of intact male dogs who are the sweetest thing ever. There is no solid scientific evidence that says that getting a male dog fixed will prevent it from being agressive. Then we must think of all the male dogs that are used as show dogs! those dogs are the most well behaved dogs, and they arent fixed! so i personally dont think you should try to scare me into wanting to fix my dog. he will never change because the way he is, is his character. It takes proper training and lots of love to make any dog fixed or not well behaved sweet as ever.

LOL i know right?? Thank you for the background on pyometra, i suppose i dont have much of a concern for that in my male dog considering it seems to be something on female dogs can suffer from. But regarless of that i appreciate, your comment, and also the background info, im glad to know that the dogs you have grown up with were sweet dogs that lived a very long life :)

First, let me say that the law does have exceptions.

*If the dog has some medical reason and you can supply a document from a vet.
*If you are a licensed fancier, breeder, or pro handler.
*If they are a search & rescue, police, or a service dog.

I'm not in total agreement with the age that they decided to have this done - 4 months of age - I would have rather seen this more like 6-7 months old so that there's time to let the baby teeth fall out or have them taken out at the same time of the surgery. But I guess you could get a Vet's note saying that you're going to wait for that.

I understand people not wanting to be told what to do, however, there are some people who need to be told what to do.

Yes, rules/laws are made in order to keep things under control. Without rules/laws we have chaos.

My position on this law is - that if people had been responsible prior to this they wouldn't have needed to make this law. :rolleyes:

One thing I think they left out of this law is - that any breeding facility should have a maximum number that they can have breeding and/or in their facility. They really need to hit the puppymillers and hoarders.

Besides the idea of having thier teeth pulled at the same time, its also important to wait to a later age so that the puppies bones can fully develop and grow. Its a known fact that the hormone that is being elimiated or reduced drastically during the surgery helps with the growth process and when taken away to soon, it can cause the bones to be extremly week. And with little dogs like yorkies, you already have a concern about thier fragile bodies, so its important for thier bones to get a chance to grow to thier full potential.

Obviously you haven't dealt with an intact male around a bitch in heat. :confused: I think you're being a little naive.

You don't have to let your dog out - they will find a way out - terriers are notorious for getting out! And they don't have to be unattended to get away - they'll do it right when you're standing there. :D

Ive actually seen my male dog around a female dog in heat, he was actually well behaved. he didnt try to hump her, however i could tell he was interested in her. He did keep smelling her, he tride to play with her but only her face and ears was he interested in. He still listened to me, and relativly was ok with leaving her alone. I had no problems with him around her. She had doggie pants on, i dont know if that made a differance, but from what ive heard and read i dont think it could have. I consider my male dog to be a little sissy LOL.. so he's more girly and sensitive then any girl dog ive ever owned or had the pleasure of meeting. He was the only boy surrounded by all girls growing up, and when i got him from the breeder she informed me that he was a mommas boy. I really think it has to be in a dogs character to act in that way, and i also think the dogs does what it feels thier owner will allow.

I'm just curious...
Do you still have 2 unaltered females?
Is one of them Reese? How's she doing?
How's her daughter? Did she end up being a red leg?

I really am sorry about your Hazel getting loose and getting hit by a car. I know that you didn't let her out unattended - these things just happen, don't they?

I hope you understand what I was saying about how these little ones can get out - if they want to.

Please reconsider neutering your little guy.

My mother has a unaltered female dog and my younger sister has an unaltered female dog. Reeses is now my mothers dog She is doing great, i gave her to my mom after the birth of the puppies. The red leg you are talking about is my little sisters dog, and her coat is growing in nicley, she has very thick hair. Hazel died of being hit by a car because when my younger sister was watching her she left the door open, my mother had just arrived home from work and hazel ran out to greet her. After running out there to my mother there were two men jogging up the hill, Reeses began to bark at the men and ran after them, hazel (whom always seemed to follow her mother) ran out after reeses, right when hazel ran out to the men she was hit by a car. However i dont see your point. I do not see how my dog getting hit by a car and being killed has anything to do with my new dog being fixed. hazel got out of the house because my little sister carlessly left the door open, and because once hazel was outside my mother failed to watch what they were doing. I myself if i were there would not have allowed that to happen. I do not blame my sister or mother because i know that wasnt thier intention but i do think that could have been prevented! one of reeses puppies just died last month during her spay surgury! I loved that little dog and im very upset that had to happen. the family is extremly sad, it broke my heart!! and the thing is the vet could not tell her why it happened! the sad part is how much she loved her dog and how much she beats her self up about it everyday! You didnt see those people when thier dog died from getting a effin "Simple" surgery done,and her father was SOO torn up about it you would think they just lost a child! Which is what it feels like because i did lose Hazel. A dog will run out into the street if its allowed to regardless of if they are fixed or not! A dog can die regardless of if they are fixed or not. i will not risk the life of my dog for a surgery i dont feel he needs. if he dies from the surgery the only person i could blame is myself, and if he died from the surgery im pretty sure that you would not be able to supply me with another puppy just like mine. I do understand that they can get out however i think that will be the case regarless of if they are fixed or not. They are dogs, they dont understand thier surroundings, and there intent will always be to protect.

That was just cold blooded! What does any of that have to do with this topic? I guess for some hitting below the belt is ok.

It's not about being told what to do. laws are needed but not when they infringe on your constitutional rights. And this kind of law does just that.

Maybe you should read them some time. The right to our property, dogs/animals, are indeed property by LAW.

Obviously its hooked up to a respirator and not just put in to hold the airway open. what would be the point of that? its connected to the respirator which supplies the oxygen and gas anesthesia that keeps the patient anesthetized during the surgery.

And i was saying the tech would be stressed in the situation where a patient wasn't intubated and suddenly stopped breathing during surgery. If a dog was only masked and stopped breathing or suddenly woke up because it had been holding its breath, then the tech would have to quickly place a tracheal tube down the throat while the dog is in an upside down position without moving the patient or disturbing the surgical field. So yeah i'd say that is a little stressful. have you ever had to do that? well i have and its not easy.

--

Also, the vast majority of hit by car dogs that come into the hospital are UNALTERED males. They range from the stray to the responsibly owned, never out of the owners sight, kept in the house, on a leash, never runs out the front door dog.

My post wasn't meant to be cold hearted. I do feel really bad for anyone who looses their pup.

My point was to address comments she's made.

#1 - about never being in the situation where an unwanted pregnancy would occur. She has an unaltered male in a house with 2 unaltered females... you don't think that's setting up a situation for a unwanted pregnancy? :confused: The one female had a pup that they thought was a red leg... I don't think that dog should be bred - do you?

#2 - about people letting their dogs be "unattended" which wasn't the case and isn't always the case when a dog gets loose - like she was saying. Yes, it can happen with both altered & unaltered dogs but she acted like it just couldn't/wouldn't happen with her - but it did - and unfortunately with a terrible ending - not just an unwanted pregnancy.

#3 - I know neither one of you agree with this law, and that certainly is your purgative, but from what I'm hearing, it has more to do with "your right to breed" than the right of the dogs "not to be". If you really don't think this law is in the best interest of you and/or your dogs I hope that you get involved to find a better way of taking care of these thousands of animals sitting in shelters.

I don't think the law is perfect - far from it - but until someone comes up with a better way to help these animals - it's a good start.

Oh, one of the reasons this law came about was that someone left an unwanted dog at the shelter and unbeknownst to anyone - it had parvo! They had to *put to sleep* almost all of the animals that were there! It was HEARTBREAKING! They had NO chance at a new life. Not to mention that it took up ALL of their funds to clean the shelter and they couldn't take in any more unwanted pets!

What's this have to do with spay/neutering our pets.... EVERYTHING!

I don't believe the ratio of deaths from being spayed/neutered outweighs the the survivors. I know you and I don't want to be the ones it does happen to - but sometimes, sadly, it's just what was meant to be.

So, show me that proof please.

I am not going to beat a dead horse here. So we will just have to agree to disagree because we are not going to convince each other of anything. And that was never my intention anyhow.

But you have no right to tell people what they can and cannot do, or what they should do. What animals she, or I or anyone else have in their home is just none of your business.

You just don't give people enough credit. I have intact male and females dogs in my home and if I do not want them to breed, it does NOT happen! I have never had an accidental litter, ever!

I stand firm in CHOICE! PERIOD.
Have a wonderful day..I know I will:)

i don't have written proof. I was telling you of my experience working as a vet tech in an emergency hospital. I saw many hit by car dogs and MOST of them were intact males. you can believe me or not, your choice. But i know what i saw and i know how it felt to have to watch those dogs suffer and sometimes die/be euthanized.

OK to address the fact that you say i stay in the house with TWO unaltered females! First you do not know me, or where i stay! My little sister and mother both have two female dogs that are unaltered. I do not stay in the house with my mother and sister! Has it ever occured to you that as a 22 year old female i may have actually MOVED OUT OF my parents home?????
IF YOU KNEW ANYTHING ABOUT BREEDING, which i happen to know alot about because my great aunt has been breeding yorkies and maltese for 40 years now in Virginia, you would know that red legged yorkies can often times be a desireable breeding candidate because of thier color,they are said to bring the color back into the breed.

I felt your post was very coldhearted, whether you meant it or not.
People clearly do not mean for thier dogs to run in the street, and my point was to say that ANY dog can run into the street regardless of if they are male, female alterted or unaltered!! My point was to say that if you are watching your dog intently the chances of that happening are entirely too bleak! I know what could have happened differently to save my Hazels life. I do feel that her life could have been saved if she were being watched better. Thats my opinion, i have a right to that.I think that both my sister and mother were not doing a good job of watching her, and they have both admitted that was the case.

Also In NORWAY it is illegal to spay or neuter your dog!! and guess what?? they do not have a pet overpopulation problem! here is the link
American College of Theriogenologists

Before i bought my dog, i tride to get a rescue or pound dog and i did not qualify because 1) at the time i was in college staying in an apartment and they would not allow people who lived in apartments get one of thier dogs even if the apartment was ok with it.
2) when i tride to use my parents home address as my own i did not qaulify because we have a pool and we have stairs, and they feel that both are unsafe enviornments for yorkies
3) because there was a child (my younger brother) living in the home with us!!
4) I didnt have a job, and they felt i would not be able to financially take care of a dog!!! despite the fact that i had money
so maybe if it wasnt so flippin difficult to adpot a dog from a pound or shelter they wouldnt be so overcrowded! they dont give people the time of day, they make it difficult or least they did for me! Perhaps if it wasnt so difficult and they didnt have so many rules there wouldnt be so many dogs there in the first place! there has been a study done in some city (when i get the link i will post it) that showed that when pounds and shelters stay open longer, relax thier rules and advertise they actually end up adopting out all of thier dogs! so perhaps thats the solution! making it mandatory to spay and neuter does nothing! because people will still abandon thier dogs, and people will still give thier dogs away! in the neighborhood where my older sister lives there is a little stray dog running around, it is a fixed male dog! the owner of the dog does not want it anymore and thus decided to let it run around the neighborhood until it gets stolen or taken to a pound! it is EVIL people like this lady who no longer care about thier animal and resort to allowing it to run around to get picked up by a shelter that there are so many stray dogs in the shelter. ALSO shelters only keep dogs for like 4 days before they decide to put them to sleep! perhaps if they kept them longer the owner of the dog would have more time to come and find it! it is a fact that most of the dogs in shelters are actually lost dogs, that the owner cannot find! (i will post the link for this as well!) so honestly thats all i have to say. to you.

My dog that was hit by a car was a female so in my eyes it can happen to any dog! i do believe that people dont intend for it to happen to thier dog OBVIOUSLY, but i also believe that you can train your dog not to run into the street! since ive lost A FEMALE dog due to her running in the street, iVE already trained my current dog not to do it!! Hazel (my dog who was killed RIP) liked to go in the street sometimes, i didnt train her not to go in the street because OBVIOUSLY i didnt think i would ever lose her, and i didnt think anyone would stupidly speed up a steep hill. To tell me that most of the dogs that come in and are hit by cars are unaltered male dogs is almost like telling me that just because my dog is an unaltered male he will get hit by a car! I HAVE LOST A DOG, FROM BEING HIT BY A CAR AND I WILL NEVER EVER LOSE ANOTHER DOG THAT WAY!

***this is no longer a response to you, so that you dont think im attacking you because i am not.****


dogs are extremely smart animals they are not IDIOTS! i can teach my dog to do whatever i want!! and if i cant get him to learn it i will hire someone to teach him the behavior for me!!!! He already knows not to go in the street AND IS STILL LEARNING, and i dont care what female dog he is after my dog will not end up dead in the street! I did not ask people to attack me because of my decision to keep my dog intact. i simply asked people if thier dog was fixed and how they felt about it, SO IF YOUR INTENT IS TO ATTACK OR MAKE ME FEEL BAD YOUR WASTING YOUR TIME BECAUSE I DO NOT CARE AND I WONT CHANGE MY MIND! I WILL NOT BE SCARED INTO MAKING MY DOG GO THROUGH A SURGERY I DO NOT WANT HIM TO HAVE (period)..

I wanted to learn about how people felt about the surgery being done on thier dog, and i wanted to learn how people who havent gotten it done has felt! i think its sad that anytime someone brings up this topic those who are pro spay and neuter (or whatever) always seem to attack those who are against it, but its never vice verse, then the people against it have to spend the majority of the time trying to defend thier position! its unfair that someone isnt allowed to have an opinion of this surgery being wrong without being attacked about it or otherwise be scared into wanting to have it done! people need to become more open minded. I have continued to say that i UNDERSTAND why some people get it done, even those who have been on this thread constently sticking with me have said the same thing! but none of you have been able to expand your brains big enough to UNDERSTAND (NOT AGREE) with why some peopel dont get it done!!! I am aware that there are people who are too cheap, or lazy or perhaps dont care enough to get the srugery done to thier dog, but that is not everyones reasoning. And the point of my thread was a place where i felt people could honestly state why they did what they did or why they feel how they feel without being attacked by others. but since having asked the question i wish i could take it back because all it has done was made me not like some YORKIETALKER, whom i previously loved!! I have always loved the people on her, because through some of my most difficult moments they have been by my side giving me advice and supporting me through it all. And i felt that these wonderful people would be muture enough and open minded enough about a discussion regarding spay and neuter srugeries. I will always understand why it is done, i understand why it can be important. i understand why people choose to do it. i just DONT AGREE WITH THE PROCEDURE OR THE IDEA BEHIND IT. BUT I WILL NEVER KNOCK OR PUT DOWN ANYONE WHO DECIDES TO GET IT DONE BECAUSE IT IS THERE CHOICE!!

Thank you.
 

thank you yet again, for all of your post. For remaining open minded and for having my back lol!! I really appreciate you, you have no idea :d this is for all of your post that you have written today. Your great!

You are correct, it can happen to any dog. i'm just explaining what i experienced as a vet tech. We did have females (spayed and intact) and neutered males that came in because they were hit. I'm just saying most of the ones that I saw were intact males.

I am sorry your little one got hit and died. We have a hill like that in my neighborhood and i always go slow up over the top because you can't see who is coming over the other side. But there are the idiots who speed over it without thinking about who or what is on the other side of that hill.

I'm not gonna berate you for having intact animals. It is your choice if you want to spay or neuter them. You obviously love your pets very much.

There are pro's and con's to everything. Its just my opinion, with my experiences, that its better to spay/neuter, and that's what I will always do with my animals.

THANK YOU :). I appreciate this post, it truley means alot to me! :)