Another problem at the dog park. :( really upset
 

Ive had my german shepherd since she was 8 weeks old. In june she'll be a year and a half.

Apache is my baby. She loves people and other animals but Apache and I have a special bond nothing could ever replace. I have never in my life see her get agressive or mean.
Shes my 7 month old yorkies best friend and she also gets along great with my two cats and even our pet rat. Shes a gentle giant and I trusted her. She has been playing with my neighbors baby since she learned to walk. ( this baby hugs her, hits her, pulls on her ears, eye lids, and apache does nothing. )

Last night I was at the park with the usual crew, when a guy came in that I hadnt seen before. He had a small 15 pound puggle. Something about this dog didnt agree with apache. Apache ran across the field to tackle and attack this small dog. I Pulled her off as quickly as I could and then yelled at her. I put her on the ground with my hand and made her submit to me. I made her lay like that for 5 minutes in a time out and then let her go again (keeping a closer eye this time). She went right back over to the dog and started to attack again. I grabbed her by her collar, and then it happened.


She turned around and bit me. Not lightly either.
Besides the fact that she had just dug her k9s an inch into my hand, and now I was bleeding everywhere, my main concern was the smaller dog. I grabbed her with my good hand and left the park.


So now, Im in shock.
How can a dog that is so sweet and gentle with my three pound yorkie, babies , and cats, turn into something so aggressive?
It just hurts. I love that dog so much, put so much effort, time, money, & love into her and she turns around and bites me?

What did I do wrong? Has anyone else had an experience like this? I dont know what to think :(

You probably didn't do anything wrong per se.
Big dogs who are protective have the size and equipment to do damage.
I would guess that pugged just really got his adrenalin going somehow and it was bigger than she could handle. You were between her and the "problem" so you got the end of the K9s.

Hope all is well now. Is she obedience trained? That is often the best way to get in control of big dogs.

Sorry this happened -- but don't think we have to worry about who is going to protect you:D

My first instincts tell me she may have picked up on your uneasiness about the stranger and the new dog.

Don't have your feelings hurt.... all (or most, except for the super well trained) dogs will bite once they reach a certain level of excitement and they're intent on doing what they're doing.

Dogs live in the present, her bite I believe was more a reaction to your action of trying to interupt her behavior.

More to follow... gotta go now....

Shes obedience trained, very well actually. She just got out of control. It was like she was a different dog

Oh no, I'm so sorry. That must be devastating for you.
I belong to a site that has a different way of training...I'd like to encourage you to check it out, I'm sure there is someone there might be able to help you....
It is a little different and takes some adjusting but please at least check it out and good luck!
SATZ_Main : Safe_Alternative_Teaching_Zone

My boxer (the sweetest little babyin the world) bit me once when his foot got caught in between the plexy glass of a door. It was really jammed in there and he was wailing and freaking out. I reached down to try and pull it out and he attcked my arm. I had to get stiches. :(

My point being that dogs have one track minds sometimes and he didn't mean to hurt you. I am sorry this happened.

Yes I have had this happen, it was heartwrenching and horrble beyond words. I spoke about this in another thread here, somewhere. I can't go over it again, but I will say this. That is still your baby but you no longer can trust her with others (people or fur) and you must secure her when they are in your home. I would not leave her alone with your Yorkies. Others may disagree but as someone who has been there....I'm sorry the risk is not worth it. I had to rehome my dog because I couldn't trust him around my children or dogs again. To this day, I do socialize my dogs and they are fine, but when small children are around, they go away.

When my Gus did this we had a close single friend rehome him, took him for a refresher course in training and then a few years later it happened again. Anyways, this is just my experience and opinion, you may want to seek the advice of a professional.

Good Luck and I really am sorry you went through this, I hope its an isolated incident. I truly feel your pain.

Where is the dog now?

It sounds like redirected aggression. It's actually a very common response to being grabbed by the collar in that kind of situation.

Hopefully this does not happen again, but if you need to pull her away, you should pull her away by her back paws. A dog can't do much when it's in a handstand.

I never thought of grabbing from the back paws. Good idea. She is NEVER left alone with my yorkie, not worth the risk. I Hope this never happens again. & Ill check out that training site. Thanks everyone.

You become the aggressor to the dog when you rush in & grab them by the collar or neck scruff in a dog fight where instincts kick into survival mode. The back legs are the only safe way to stop a dog fight - but don't stop there. Tell the other owner or anyone to remove the other dog so they won't start up again or they most likely will, as soon as you let them go. Keep moving your dog in a circle or "walking" it on its forepaws as you hold the back legs up so it can't get to you until it calms down & comes to itself - and the other dog is gone. One of the dogs has to be removed - usually the smaller dog - as the owner of the larger dog continues the rear-leg holding/circling away from the scene of the fight. Go faster if he's trying to turn & nip you. Try to circle/walk it toward the gate & out of the enclosure to your car, get someone to open a door & guide him in, close the door. Now that it has happened once, it could very easily recur so you are going to either have to leash him at the dog park or start pretty disciplined training to keep him in line.

I feel for you and the situation you encountered. I also endorse the hind legs lift.

On a further note, with working dogs and especially those bred to guard and protect; training needs to be constant. Not saying in your case that it isn't, but if not for sure you better start doing daily training.

She is only 18mths old, and for larger breeds that is the dreaded teenage years. She is just now starting to come into her own as an "adult".

If you do have a trainer, then go back to them now. You will need to build up trust again with her. Being bit by your dog, is no cup of tea, and really can shake you to your core.

This maybe folklore, (sorry I am not a GSD owner) however I have heard that Shepherds will turn on their owners at least once, and you better be prepared to deal with it.

I am how-ever a large working breed owner and breeder of Black Russians. They will not show their true adult character until about 3yrs old. Before then, I always advise to build a very stable and good working rapport with your dog. So when you "need" the absolute obedience it will be there.

I have always used and trained into my dogs, the STOP command. It is the emergency command, and is never, ever to be disobeyed. I start when they are eight week old pups.

I do believe that bite, was a result of her being in the "fight" mode, adrenaline coursing through her body, and she responded from this mindset.

Oh my goodness:eek: I have no advice or experience with big dogs. Just wanted to say I'm sorry that happened to you and I hope that with some additional training, it never happens again.

How is your hand now?

I agree the bite was self-defense & not personal. Look at it like this - if your GSD rushed at you & you thought she was attacking, you would knock her to the side or hit out at her, defending yourself from this "attack", which you don't understand. She wouldn't take your self-defense personally. From the dog's point of view, when she's in survival mode & you try to stop her from defending her life, you are "attacking" in her mind. She doesn't understand that you are trying to stop the fight. So don't take it personally, thinking she doesn't still love you or anything. She's just acting out of instinct as you would.

From my small experience with Shepherds (I grew up with one - she was the first dog that was basically "mine" at young age) and now my uncle having his 9 month old girl.... but almost every Shepherd I've seen at the dog park has a totally different play style, they tend to be nippy, and protective. And to be honest? Most of them don't belong in a dog park IMO. I love the breed and plan to own them again, but I am not sure the dog park is the proper place for them. They really require respect of other dogs and if they don't get it, they will re-direct.

Was this Puggle that came in over-excited by any chance? She probably (your girl) felt the need to patrol the situation.

Also, was your Yorkie there too? Maybe she was protecting her family, as a Shepherd should.

And for what it's worth, I don't agree with making her submit and all that, but I understand it works for some people. But in my experience it makes the aggressor more aggressive.

That's not say she is aggressive by any means! To me, she is a teenager who is growing up and she is probably going to go through a few changes. I know our Shepherd came into her own at about that age and unfortunately due to bad genetics/breeding and lack of exercise, training and socialization, she became VERY overly protective of her family and ended up getting put to sleep. :(

Maybe check out the German Shepherd forums too. :)

I agree with this theory above....I am not qualified so I will not give any advise on training...I dont think your dog was "attacking" YOU....I think she was caught up in the moment, her adrenalin was rushing thru-out her body, and she was in "fight or flight" mode...she felt pulling on her collar, and she bit at that annoying deterrant to her immediate goal at hand...neutralizing that small dog. I am a huge proponent of "avoidance"...."if you cant stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen" mindset....therefore, I do not take my dogs out in public, off leash...we do not frequent dog parks....I like to be in TOTAL control of any situation I put myself or my dogs in, so I simply avoid the possibility of dog fights, run away dogs off leash, etc ....we all just stay in our own little corner of the world, my large yard. I do not trust training when a dog is taken over by instinct....I believe they will throw caution and any education or training they have ever been subjected to, to the wind and act like maniacs, driven by base instinct. Only after the initial frenzy, when they regain a modicom of their senses, will they even HEAR you yelling commands, which they MIGHT then obey, if they have managed to get past that initial surge in their system. I did learn something from the trainers on site here! Grabbing the hind legs and walking in circles, putting them strictly on their front legs, is brilliant!

[QUOTE=Yorkiemom1;3930142]I agree with this theory above....I am not qualified so I will not give any advise on training...I dont think your dog was "attacking" YOU....I think she was caught up in the moment, her adrenalin was rushing thru-out her body, and she was in "fight or flight" mode...she felt pulling on her collar, and she bit at that annoying deterrant to her immediate goal at hand...neutralizing that small dog. I am a huge proponent of "avoidance"...."if you cant stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen" mindset....therefore, I do not take my dogs out in public, off leash...we do not frequent dog parks....I like to be in TOTAL control of any situation I put myself or my dogs in, so I simply avoid the possibility of dog fights, run away dogs off leash, etc ....we all just stay in our own little corner of the world, my large yard. I do not trust training when a dog is taken over by instinct....I believe they will throw caution and any education or training they have ever been subjected to, to the wind and act like maniacs, driven by base instinct. Only after the initial frenzy, when they regain a modicom of their senses, will they even HEAR you yelling commands, which they MIGHT then obey, if they have managed to get past that initial surge in their system. I did learn something from the trainers on site here! Grabbing the hind legs and walking in circles, putting them strictly on their front legs, is brilliant![/QUOTE]

Yes it is a good one. How-ever I've never tried that with a Pitbull. I'm not sure if you'd be able to break the focus. My trainer who also trains protection, carries with him a dowel type of rod. It is meant to release the jaw bite. This is for the breeds that bite and lock on.

I agree once the fight ensues - commands will rarely work, unless your pup has been protection trained, and has learnt the "out" command.
I was thinking here of when the Shepherd started to run - the STOP command.

I have started to "rethink" leasefree parks. Most of my breeder friends don't utilize them at all. For various reasons. I'm guilty now of taking my dogs to out of the way parks, in off times, to exercise and train off lead.
Once a week or so, the Blackies and Yorkies, all get together at one of our breeder friends country places, to socialize and train together. That is a lot of fun:D But still we are very careful. With the puppies, we socialize with one or two well trained and stable adults, with 4 human adults, monitoring.
I think I might have posted a video called Labour Day training that shows the Yorkies, Blackies, and one border collie training. Our Blackies get to socialize together, after they have trained together. There are a few reasons for this; a) obedience training is tiring both physically and mentally for the dogs b) training in a pack builds a pack mentality c) they have fresh reminders of just who is the boss, and our keyed into you and your commands. d) in training we can perceive/tell if one or another dog has an objection to each other.

With a locked in Pit full of fight genes all engaged or a situation like that where dogs are in the "kill" mode, a finger jabbing the anus, the eyes or a tool to separate the jaws is often required. It usually takes 2 people who are willing to get bit to separate them. But with normal dogpark fights, grabbing a leg is usually all that's required to get them apart & then foreleg circle walking away.

I've been thinking about you since I posted yesterday. I just really want to make sure you take this seriously... really your dog's life depends on it. If she had bitten the other owner or hurt the other dog then things would be out of your hands. She has now successfully bitten you and she needs to know that this can never happen again....

My cocker spaniel Peppi has something about her that makes other dogs want to attack her. She has a very friendly outgoing personality but she has been the victim of so many attacks. And I watch her, she doesn't do anything to bring the attacks on. She just has a dominant aura that does can pick up on and I guess that is why they attack her. Even a well trained lab competing in obedience attacked her. Maybe this is the case with the puggle.

I have to agree with Brit though on your method of training. I have had big dogs all my life and I can tell you aggression brings aggression. Alpha rolls are good examples of this.

That said it does sound like she bit you in the heat of the moment. Larger dogs mature slower, so she is still quite young and still needs lots of training. Hopefully this was just an isolated event and with more training this won't happen again.

Poor Peppi :( That is very interesting that dogs want to attack her. I wonder how they sense her dominance.

I have had bg dogs all my life. and have had 3 GSD's.. I agree with the others, your dog was ReDirecting her frustration, you just happened to be there. I do also think that maybe you could try more "pack leader" training. I thonk that no matter how frustrated a dog is, they wont redirect to the pack leader, what pack leader says, goes! period. I Use Cesar's trainings on my dogs. I do modify things (like i dont use a leash on Ziigy's collar because i dont want to hurt his throat etc.) But i do believe in his teachings and they have worked great for my family pets. they are well behaved. Which ever training you decide to follow though, I do hope you feel better and know that she really was not trying to hurt you. I know ANY dog is capable of this, its just that she has big teeth you know. dont take it to heart. Just keep workibg hard on training

When any dog, especially big ones I've had or fostered, shows even unintended aggressive behavior, I go into a month of the Nothing In Life Is Free training mode & it is funny how quickly things fall right back into place. It works magic with a dog after he's forgotten his role in our "pack" or family. Big, powerful dogs who decide to even momentary be alpha can be dangerous & hurt somebody or another animal so it is helpful to get right on reminding them who really is the leader in this family.

I am going to be spending more time training her. Apache has earned herself a static correction collar called "big dog remote trainer" by pet safe. It has a fuction to just beep, and then 10 levels of shock. (I Shocked myself on 10. Not terrible)
Its been working amazing. We call it the good girl collar. I am using it mainly to correct any agressive behavior I see from her, especially at the dog park.

I personally would never use a shock collar on a pet dog as you don't need to hurt or shock one to properly train it. Dogs are super smart animals. It can really mess with some dogs' minds to have this mindless & sudden shock come out of no where & they begin to fear life & often you. They connect your smell with that collar & what happens to them - don't think they don't. I would withdraw that type of treatment, usually only used to rehab only aggressive biting or fighting dogs that repeatedly attack people or other animals to save them from euthanasia & substitute learning how to become a loving, responsible & successful leader/trainer/best friend to my dog. Have you tried the Nothing In Life Is Free training methods? That training is easy & big dogs get right on board very quickly. They are so intelligent - they don't need shocking.

My honest opinion? I think any kind of aversive training (i.e. alpha rolls, shock collars) are going to make this situation 10000x worse.

I like Cesar, I really do. I know he's done a lot of good when it comes to dogs, and I don't think he MEANS harm. But I have seen so many dogs who end up in shelters, or needing to be re-trained because their owners tried to utilize these "dominant" methods on their dogs and then it takes a lot longer to re-fix the problem.

Your dog did not bite you because she thought she was a "pack leader" - she's a working dog, who probably doesn't necessarily belong in a dog park (depends on the dog though of course, but in general, I wouldn't advise most working breeds to be there) - she re-directed her attention and got you in the heat of the moment.

I have to roll my eyes now (and I used to be a huge believer in the whole "pack dominance theory") when I hear people spouting things like... oh my dog runs out the door before me because he's dominant. No, he simply is excited to go outside. My dog is dominant because he eats before. Nope, sorry, he's just hungry. And then I watch people go around "tsskkk"'ing their dogs thinking they are actually accomplishing something, when all the dog does is look up at the owner like wtf are you doing? lol. I just think only a select handful of people actually know what they are doing, and most are just making it worse.

If every time a dog sees another dog, or reacts to another dog, it gets shocked. It's going to learn "dog = shock = I don't like dogs anymore".

I think prong collars, shock collars, etc, have their place. But just like any tool, they can be abused, or misused. I think your really need to be properly trained in order to use one.

NILIF is great, because it's not so aversive. It's just teaching manners, politeness, etc. Nothing in Life is Free

I also recommend Control Offleash
(teach Look At That!)

Also heard great things about The Dog Listener

Also, for reactive dogs, have seen the recommended.

Good luck.

LOL. You are right about so many people trying to be "Cesar". Just as scary as all those people "tsskk"ing & alpha rolling are those that just completely overlook dog misbehavior over & over & say it's just a dog being a dog, erring to the other extreme, then wondering why their dog badly bit somebody or chased the little neighbor girl across the street in traffic. Then the dog winds up in a shelter & we know what usually happens from there. Seems a lot of people don't have the patience or desire to just train their dogs & give refresher courses from time to time. Training is really fun & easy for the dog & the human. It is vital for big, powerful breeds.

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

I almost never have to actually shock apache. She is for the most part a very well behaved dog. The shock collar has a beep funtion on it. If Apache is doing something she shouldnt be, She gets a beep and then the shock if she has not corrected the behavior. 9 out of 10 times the beep is enough to get her to stop whatever shes doing. I agree that there are some total idiots walking around goimg tssssssk! Its all trial and error. Every dog is different and so is every owner. Everyone has a way they like to do things & that works for them.