Even though there has been some unexpected drama on this thread, I still think this is an interesting discussion about very talented young people that have been taken away from the world much too soon, for whatever reason. Many of the most talented people on earth are fighting the biggest demons, and having that extreme amount of hurt in them helps them to create the most touching pieces of music, art, or what have you.

Amy Winehouse may not have been as big as Jimi Hendrix, Michael Jackson (he OD'd too, just at the hands of his doctor, allegedly), Curt Cobain, but she has a loyal following bc her lyrics spoke to many people who could relate. People that felt that same hurt in bad relationships, abusing yourself, bad choices, disappointment. People that are not perfect. I am one of them.

Just my two cents worth.... In some ways I admire your conviction jmdt. But, I do think it is way more complicated than what you have stated.

IMHO dealing with a loved one with a drug or alcohol addiction is very difficult, to say the least. You love the person, but hate the addiction. Personally, my DH and I spent time in counseling learning how not to be an enabler or codependent or whatever you want to call it. I still stuggle with this.


However, I do have friends that have the same kind of opinion as yours. And what I have always told them is that I admire that they will never have to stuggle with being an enabler and sounds like you will never have to do this either.

:thumbup::thumbup: You and I have the same taste in music. Also love blues.

I'm torn on this subject. Yes, addiction changes the brain and is a disease. However, the decision to first take the drug is a choice. The same thing can be said for anyone who smokes and gets lung cancer, eats poorly and doesn't exercise then develops heart disease or type 2 diabetes and so on.

We live in a society that glamorizes drugs and alcohol. Just take a look at any recent head line on TMZ or ROL as well as any movie and tv show. They show young, rich stars who party hard and seem to have zero consequences until they hit the ultimate one. What's a young person (or anyone for that matter) to think?

Talking to your kids helps. Some. But pure scare tactics don't work, either.

I don't know what the answer is. I'm not sure anyone does. But I don't think anyone should be villianized for their opinions on addiction. After all, it's just that. An opinion. It's based on personal experiences, up bringing and the like.

The one thing we can all agree on is that it's a waste of talent when anyone succumbs and every life has value to someone else.

I am convinced all of us have an addiction of one type or another. Some just cause more harm. I have had experience with a few, personally, and went through it with my best friend, and a few family members. We are all imperfect humans, and sometimes fall victim to addiciton when we are trying to numb pain.

R.I.P. Amy Winehouse, you were loved by many.

I completely agree with those two statements. I was overweight for a long time and I still suffer from emotional eating. That is why I will NEVER put myself above a drug addict. If I cannot put down the piece of cake and deal with my emotions, who am I to judge?

I just saw this on yahoo. The New Now
Amy's "god daughter". She's so pretty, and her debut was an oldie :) Her original work is not for me, too "new" lol, but hope she does well.

woohoo! me too! ;)

Speaking of... (this is sooo O/T) You make costumes, right? Do you think you would be able to pull off a dog costume or not? This is still far off but I have been wanting to dress Jax up as MJ for the past 3 Halloween's now lol... would you be able to make some kind of a MJ-esque dog jacket, and maybe a sequin glove or something? Or is that not really your forte?

LOL. I used to make costumes. I'm too busy now with the new shop to make any more, and plus I don't have a sewing area anymore. I love making costumes, but I just don't have the time.

LoL darn!! I think he'd look so freakin' awesome but I never get a costume done it time, hahah.

Priscilla's more of an artist than a seamstress, she hand sews and she's a perfectionist. She talks about the size and neatness of stitches!! We do have many people here who might be interested in doing what you want, you should post a thread in this forum: Yorkie Products Wanted! - YorkieTalk.com Forums - Yorkshire Terrier Community Or take a look at the vendors list and see who is willing to make “Custom clothing”: http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/yor...ore-sites.html

If you're not a perfectionist you might want to check out this website. Tells how to make a sequined glove from a baby’s sock. Michael Jackson Halloween Costume Ideas for Pets - Associated Content from Yahoo! - associatedcontent.com

Aw thanks Nancy! :)

I’ve seen pictures of your work, it’s phenomenal!

This is a GREAT post! There is a choice made, the first choice.... same with someone who smokes and someone who is overweight. Often times we don't (as a society) test a person's strength, we enable them by feeling sorry and pardoning them because they had it tough. I'm not saying this is everyone's situation, but I've seen people just nod with a sick person's reasons and that is enabling them to continue on the path of self-destruction.

My boyfriends sister is extremely obese. She blames it on a car accident that hurt her neck & shoulder and 'non-existent metabolism' (her words). Yet Ive seen other people who lost a leg in an accident and busted their butt (no pun intended) in rehab, made FULL recoveries, stay in shape, etc... I believe we ALL have the strength in us to overcome situations that COULD take you down the wrong path. However I do believe there are mental and physical health ailments that are insurmountable. I never judge a book by it's cover. I don't walk by every overweight person and think or say "Wow, how could they let themselves get that big?" They could have a thyroid disease or something else.

I also have an aunt who is a severe alcoholic and a cousin who is addicted to drugs and alcohol as well. She had a TOUGH life. Her mom is an extremely violent, evil alcoholic and her Dad died when she was 17 (him 37) from cirrhosis of the liver from heavy drinking. My cousin is 30 now and is trying (again) to clean herself up. I will support her and help in any way I can. I feel bad for the life she had, the way she grew up.... who could blame her for turning to drugs for comfort. Another kid I know, her dad was killed and she was born HIV positive and lives in the poorest public housing in the city, She is in college at age 16 and living her life the cleanest and best way she can. She MADE that choice for herself and my cousin made another choice for herself.

I am NOT an enabler, I do not see an excuse good enough in the WORLD for someone to get on drugs, or abuse alcohol or even for a teenager to smoke. There is too much knowledge and education out there of what these things can do to a person. Kids learn through school, tv, parents and peers about how life changing drugs,.alcohol and cigarettes are. Not to mention schools offer counseling and kids are encouraged to go to it.

I do believe that once on it though, it is a disease, it's very sad because it is almost like a bad choice. Why do some end up like that and some don't? My cousin became addicted to drugs because she chose to do them initially, but she grew up very close to my 2 brothers & I who went to the same school, knew the same people, were presented the same opportunities and we chose NOT to do them. Maybe she has a more addictive personality, is not as strong, or was not brought up by the same parents, maybe bc her parents were addicts she was born that way?

This is a very intense and personal discussion and everyone has their take on how they see their own situations. I watched my Aunt in the ICU after she tried to commit suicide by ODing (3x) so I am compassionate enough to cry for her and how far she's sunk... but I'm not one to say "Oh poor dear, you had a tough life, it's ok that you drink another beer." Nor am I one to say "Take the drugs the doctor gave you to help you overcome the drinking addiction..." Breaking addiction is a fight.... fight for it... grow strong, be brave, get the help offered to you, learn in rehab, don't take the easy way out and grow an addiction to something else, and call me... I will talk/come over and be there for you always. But not if you keep bringing yourself down, I can't watch, it breaks my heart in a million pieces.

Here is another opinion from the peanut gallery: Many times an addiction can develop from doctor prescribed medications. I really believe that many, if not most drug addictions stem from pain killers and the body's tolerance to them if taken for a long time. After a while the prescribed amount does no good and an alternate/self medication is sought. I hope that all the rigid, intolerant and un-empathetic folks out there never have an illness or injury that requires long-term medication for pain. Thats all.

:thumbup::thumbup:

I'm going to disagree with that one. As someone who has suffered with chronic pain, I know first hand the stigma that comes with taking narcotics. But there have been MULTIPLE studies that show the brain of someone who takes the medication for pain as prescribed do not become addicted. The problems occur when people start taking either more than prescribed or continue taking them when they aren't needed. Self medication is not a normal nor expected outcome of someone being treated properly for pain control.

My question is: How is it YOU (generally speaking) know when a pain med is not needed, especially when the person in question has chronic ongoing pain, and even surgery (back, for example) has not helped? There has been documented cases that in the U.S., especially,where doctors are afraid to prescribe the strength needed by the individual patient(due to regulations, etc.) to relieve the pain, and so the patient sometimes has no choice but to supplement just to get some sort of relief and semblance of a "normal" life.

A man I know suffers with chronic pain from a work related back injury. He is now almost totally dependanat on others to do daily routines for him. He was prescibed pain medication and has not, even almost 9 years later, been able to function daily life without his medication. He is on a much higher dosage than originally prescribed becuase he began having pain while on the medication. He admits he is adicted but simply cannot deal with the pain/discomfort without them.

:( It is very sad to see someone suffer with addiction whether or not they "chose" to take that first dose.

Let's first decipher what you mean by "supplementing". Is this a person who is taking more than one drug prescribed by a single doctor? That can be a normal course of treatment because some medications work better in combination than they do separately. Are they supplementing by taking more of a prescription drug than is prescribed? More usually isn't better in terms of pain relief, and in most cases it's more dangerous. Are they taking it in a way inconsistent with the intended method of delivery (snorting crushed tablets, for example)? That's addiction and not pain relief. Addiction increases the perception of pain that is out of proportion with the stimulus.

What you are describing (in the example you gave) is someone who's pain may be uncontrolled. That's not the same as someone who is addicted, though many of the same behaviors may present in both. It's also important to differentiate between someone who is drug addicted (which means they are taking the drugs because they have an overwhelming, compulsive, uncontrollable need to take a drug for a reason other than they were prescribed or in a manner inconsistent with the labeling) versus drug dependent (which is someone who is using the medication as intended, but has a physical dependency on the medication to function normally). While addicts may also have a physical dependency, not all people who are physically dependent are addicts. The treatments and prognosis for the two are very, very different.

While every patient responds and perceives pain differently, we (generically speaking) have some good physiologic measures for differentiating pain. Pain relief is an art, and this is where having one consistent care provider becomes essential. Too often, patients "doctor shop", getting a few meds here and a few there. When they do that, the primary doctor does not have a good over view of how severe a patient perceives their pain to be or how they perceive it affects their life. This has led to many doctors to severely limit the way they treat pain because of the potential for the abuse of the medications they prescribe. Yes, some doctors are loathe to increase the amount of a drug to the level the patient feels is necessary, some due to regulations, but most due to the risk of side effects that come in to play with the higher doses.

All pain is not the same, consequently there is no generic pain medication or dosage for a certain condition. A good provider does in-depth interviews and exams to determine things like the location, duration, aggravating and mitigating factors and the quality of the pain (does it burn,cramp, tingle... does it radiate,etc) Surprisingly,while narcotics are often found to be better for acute (right around the time of the injury/surgery), pain while medications like Lyrica (which is an anti-epileptic drug) and Cymbalta (which is an MAOI) are being used successfully in chronic pain because they seem to do a better job of interrupting the pain signals. There are also a lot of non-pharmacological interventions that have great affect on chronic pain (like spinal cord stimulators and nerve ablations). Often times, all it takes is a change in medication to one that treats the underlying condition to attain adequate pain relief.

It's a fine line to determine whether someone is self-medicating due to improper pain management versus someone who is self-medicating because they are exhibiting addictive behaviors. It's not fair nor accurate to state that it's the pain medication that made the person addicted (remember, dependency is not the same as addiction) Rather, it's the behaviors around the treatment of pain that are more likely to cause the addiction. I would go so far as to say that a person ALWAYS has a choice in whether they choose to "supplement" in a way that's unhealthy.

Again, there is a big difference between someone who is drug dependent and drug addicted.

I see it as a slim rope to walk. There is a very fine line between dependent and addicted, and even that fine line is sometimes blurred.

I agree. My BIL battled addiction however, he felt that he was unable to function without them. He was young and started taking pills as a stupid social activity. Pretty soon, daily life was just easier with a pill here and there. In his tainted mind, he was not able to deal with the pain he experienced from withdraws and the crash he felt for days after coming off the medication.

Thankfully, with rehabilitations and counseling he is recovering but it is a daily battle for him and probably always will be.

I think everyone's story is deifferent as is their circumstance. Too many in my family have dealt with addiction that started one way or another. Whether the pain is really what keeps them on medication or just the high they are used to makes it easier to deal with life, I don't know. Each person I know has a different story/excuse for continuing their medicaton. I have dealt with my own "addictions"; overeating, overspending. Both of these have impacted my life in ways that were harmful, for my health and my finacial stability. Both of these have also been responsible for the loss of life before. Again, I think it is sad to see anyone dealing with an addiciton. To have something take over your life and be in control is scary.:(

:thumbup: me too. Each person I know made the choice to seek alternative ways of getting thier drugs after their prescription was out or adding to thier presciption in order to achieve a greater relief.

I agree.
I feel I cannot assume whether someone is pain dependant or addicted. He was not always so dependant. After the loss of his job, car, and faced forclosure on him home, it appeared that he simply gave up. Spent most hours at home or in the the bed and made the choice to seek out ways to get the pain management he needed. Whether it is that he is REALLY dependant or addicted, either way it is sad to see.

This is so true and Im going through it right now. I have pain with a nerve in my leg and my doctor will only give me a little bit of pain meds not a full prescription and the pain med is not even strong enough to help me. I agree with those that say there is no difference in alcoholism, drug problem, over eating or smoking they are all addictions

Have you asked for a referral to a pain specialist? If you can, look for one that staffs anesthesiologists as part of their practice. Nerve mediated pain is the most difficult to treat effectively. It's the same thing I have. I had my radial nerve accidentally severed during a hand surgery that developed in to full blown reflexive sympathetic disorder. Nerve pain is one of those situations that often responds better to non-narcotic medication like the two examples I gave earlier because those medications actually change the way the nerves conduct signals. Most general practice docs and surgeons aren't familiar enough with the latest pain research to know how to prescribe them effectively for nerve pain.

No I havent because My pain is sporatic and It just started getting real bad to where I couldnt stand or walk sometimes. I did go though some testing at the hospital neurology but I havent been back at my PCP yet to get the results.

So sorry to hear this, I hope you find some relief.