This world we live in - Doom Prophets
 

A couple of weeks ago, I watched a documentary on the "Doom Prophets", very well I guess for me scarey, informative and interesting.

Did anyone see this special?

They had experts in the oil field, the hydro electric field, the agriculture field, and the for want of a better word the anthropolgy field.

The news is not good:( We are very very close to the tipping point on oil, likely to be reached in 10yrs to 20 yrs. The tipping point is a mathematic construct, that takes into account oil demand versus production, versus known oil reserves.

There according to these experts will be a sharp very sharp re-adjustment and a following downward turn in our standard of living.

Just imagine if gas for your car comes in at $3 to $4 a gallon? Fuel for your home tripled or quadrupled the cost? What would that mean to your lifestyle?

The world according to the agri expert is already 2 billion or so over what is the sustainable agricultural ideal.

WE are in a crisis that no-one not the least of which any of our leaders is willing to recognize or handle.

WE must look at our options, and understand that the tightening of our respective belts must happen.

We desperately need alternatives to oil, and yet the development of same will not be cheap. The delivery of same expensive.

When I was young the biggest threat was nuclear war, (not saying today there isn't a threat...just think of Pakistan or North Korea), but in reality the biggest threat to our survival is our consumption of finite resources, with nary a thought to the future.

Some very dark thoughts on a beautiful summer night.

Aren't we already there? I paid $3.85/gallon of gas today.....:( Yes, things are bad....

Hi, Gail....no, I didn't see it , but it's along the same lines as the post of yours I responded to in the other thread.

On the energy front, I think there's some good news. Viable electric cars are just around the corner. For elctricity, we still mostly rely on coal , but I've seen a new technology that is already on the market, though not yet for home use. It's called the Bloom Box..check it out. Bloom Energy | Be The Solution

What worries me is the destruction of forests..our natural air cleaners. Also, the loss of habitat for so many animals and the complete extinction that looms for many.

I'm repeating myself from my other post, but growth for growth's sake is killing the planet. Why do we feel entitled to have so much stuff? Do we ever give a thought to what it takes to produce it and get it to us? The short answer is no, we don't.

I do think that global warming is very real and will show to be our biggest problem in years to come. It's not just energy consumption, either. It's tearing down woodlands, and building housing tracts and roads. I'm amazed that there's any argument as to whether it's real or not. Of course it's real!! Here's a little test for anyone. Go outside barefoot, put one foot on the grass and the other on the pavement. See the difference? Now multiply that by all the roads, parking lots and rooftops and you get an idea of man's footprint.

I'm probably about the same age as you and grew up worrying about nuclear war. It's now obvious that it's much more probable that we'll 'die the death of a thousand cuts' rather than nuclear annihilation.

The answers are obvious but difficult. We have to attain zero population growth and then dial back even further. There are just too many of us here. We also have to practice conservation on a level not yet seen. Here's a link that touches on that. How to Do Animal Rights. Human Overpoulation

Many of us bemoan what is happening to animals and the rain forests, but fail to see the part we play in this. The Western world is beginning to see the big picture, but the new wealth is in the developing world and frankly, they are on a tear to catch up in terms of development and consumption. I have no clue what's to come due to this new wrinkle in the picture. I don't think it will be pretty.

The problem is that it's a beautiful summer night and all seems well. Hard to visualize the cancer we have wrought upon the Earth from our insulated little worlds.

Okay, now everyone knows I'm crazy :D. My fear is that I will appear a little saner year by year.

It really seems to me that we ARE on the verge of the majority or people really become aware of this crisis and changing their lifestyles for a better future. I just sense that as I see and hear things. I hope it occurs.
I suppose there are some that say the 2012 "premonitions" were about just this sort of thing...a "rebirth" of awareness and attitude, and especially our responsibilities, in this world.
It just has to happen...!

We are paying 3.50 to 3.60 a gallon here in PA. UGH!!!

WOA!! World Ovepopulation Awareness

The one process ongoing ... that will take millions of years to correct is the loss of genetic and species diversity by the destruction of natural habitats. This is the folly our descendants are least likely to forgive us.
E.O. Wilson

It is sad to look back and wish our ancestors would have left herds of buffalo instead of hunting them to near extinction. There is a local rescue near us who is trying to help the mustangs that are being pushed out of their grazing lands.

I agree. I worry what we are leaving to our children. My dh has a solar company and we drive a hybrid car. I know that is not enough.

I really believe we must get "off" oil. Solar, wind ..not not coal!!! Is a start

Thanks for sharing the information, I will try to find the documentary

I guess these things all depend on what people want you to believe. While I believe in taking care of the planet I also believe in taking care of the humans on the planet. The United States has enough oil still un drilled to last 100 years at the current rate of consumption. We are not allowed to drill our own oil because of environmental issues so we are forced to buy oil from other countries. This system has enriched countries that perhaps were not ready to handle such wealth and they are now trying to destroy the west. I would much rather drill and use the oil we have in our own country while working on creating other methods of power. I think if we do not fall into the third world mentality that has been over taking our country we could come up with new methods of energy use.
We just launched the last space shuttle. Our country that used to lead the world in technology is now left hitching a ride with the Russians. Our educational system has fallen so much that we are ranked 18 out of 36 countries considered. What is going on here? Everything we buy these days is marked "made in China". Why? It seems our country, that used to be the world leader in just about everything, is crumbling from within. Are we going to just accept it or stand and say enough!

I think we've reached a point where it doesn't matter what one believes...the consequences are real and are being made more obvious every day. Believing or not believing won't change the reality that we'll all face.

It is not true that the U.S. has that much oil. The only way you can come close to that figure is to include all the oil available by fracking, along with the Alaskan reserves and all the oil on the continental shelf. If you're not familiar with the process of fracking, just google 'risks of fracking for oil'. It's not the way we want to go.

While we do get some of our oil from the Middle East, most of what we import does not come from there. Here's the top 10 countries we import oil from:

1. Canada
2. Mexico
3. Saudi Arabia
4. Venezuela
5. Nigeria
6. Angola
7. Iraq
8. Algeria
9. United Kingdom
10. Brazil

I do agree with you about China. We are making them the new economic superpower and that's bad news for everybody. Politics aside, China doesn't care about how they produce things, only that it's done cheaply. They use dirty technology on a massive scale. Also, they are exploiting poor countries for their resources and that is having a huge negative environmental impact.

I want to add that I'm not some extremist. Caring for our environment is no longer some fringe issue, but is something we all must face. I have children and grandchildren and I'd like to see them have some sort of life as we have enjoyed. That won't be possible if we keep going the way we have been.

I disagree with you on some of your points. Nothing wrong with that...lively discussions are great.

Sure, there is oil here to be drilled, but not the 100 year supply you mentioned earlier. And, for now, it's largely cheaper to buy it from someone else than do drill for it here. As the price goes up, more of it will be economically viable. I would still encourage you to research fracking, as that is what is included when oilmen talk about our 'recoverable' supply.

I'm not against offshore drilling, but rigs do more than spoil our view. I live in the area that was affected by the BP disaster. It did much more than spoil our view.

I understand about nuclear worries, but your statement is exaggerated. One bomb will not do all you say. We already have exploded 2 on cities in WW2 and have had many, many above ground nuclear test explosions. I certainly don't want to see a bomb get into the wrong hands, but there are other things that have caused more damage, both ecological and human. I remember the floods in Bangladesh that killed hundreds of thousands, famines in Ethiopia that killed untold numbers and the modern day genocides that have killed millions. And, to get back to the BP spill, we are still calculating the damage, but it's far greater than the PR being put out. That one spill has ruined much of the world's largest estuary (the breeding ground for much of the seafood we eat) for years to come.

I won't get into the other points as it might get more political than YT allows. I do feel, however, that it's not an either/or situation. We can provide for ourselves without raping the planet. I think that's where the focus should be. The ones that find good solutions will not only be preserving the planet, but will also reap huge economic rewards. That should be enough incentive to look beyond drilling our way out of the energy problems we now have.

The oil supply is but one of the issues we now face. We're running out of other things, as the OP mentioned. Managing our land and water resources are just as big, if not bigger, issues than filling up our gas tanks. The price at the pump is just the one we notice the most.

You are very impressive with your knowledge, ability to get your point across and your appreciation of open-minded debate and exchange of ideas. Very refreshing and enjoyable to read! Thank you.

I would add a couple of comments to what I read here on this thread:
1. It can be dangerous to condemn entire countries, religions or people. That is the very thing those who are training terrorists do and teach.
2. Alaska is probably the most beautiful place I have ever seen. To see and be in its undisturbed wilderness, peace and tranquility is a privilege I hope all have the opportunity to enjoy someday.
3. As someone with a painful and trying chronic disease that many scientists believe is connected to the increase of toxins in our world and food supply, I truly hope that damaging practices such as fracking can be minimized so that we do not all still have to pay the ultimate price...just slowly.
4. That said, I certainly don't have answers, but hope that those who do figure them out are, indeed, rewarded greatly!!

Your post and this discussion have really inspired me to really think about all of these sad realities. Both you and Woogieman never fail to impress me with your intellectual discussions and your love and devotion to animals. Thank you Jim and Gail. You are both an asset and inspiration to this forum.

I have no desire to continue this discussion except to say the deep water drilling is a very dangerous adventure. There is far less chance of such accidents happening in wells that are not drilled at such extreme depths.
I never condemned a whole religion or country. I said that those who do not agree with such beliefs are not the ones in charge in Iran. There are moderates in every culture, unfortunately, it is those who go to the extreme who have the control of the country at the moment.
I don't believe that you seriously think that an nuclear bomb is less harmful to the environment than an oil well accident. Yes, we have done nuclear testing miles underground but that is not what would be done in a war in the middle east. Millions will die and all oil supply will be cut off. Now that is quite a bit of doom in my mind.
Business and industry as well as the millions of people who live in this country cannot exist on electricity that is generated only by wind mills and solar power. At this point in history we are dependent on fossil fuels.People need jobs and jobs are produced by business and industry. We need paychecks to buy our food, clothing and shelter. We need technology that goes far beyond wind mills and solar power to move this country into a productive stature that does not depend on fossil fuels.
Maybe the minds that once sent people into space can now find methods that will produce the kind of power fossil fuels do. I hope so because our lives depend on it. I live in the north and millions would die here and in other countries without electricity. It's sad but I think that is exactly what some environmentalists would like since they feel that the existence of too many humans is hurting the planet. Human beings will always be more important than the ground they walk on. I'm sorry you feel we should stop reproducing. I am expecting a new grand child soon and I believe you said you have some grandchildren as well. How you expect to attain 0 population growth with our loved ones giving birth is beyond me. Are we supposed to just decide to eliminate certain populations? It seems you have decided we are killing our planet and yet we have this problem in that people are still reproducing and thriving on this dying planet. Very thoughtless of us. Living and reproducing on a dying planet. Inconsiderate of us indeed.

This subject really goes much further than our energy supply. It's about an increasing population, the choices they make and the impact it has on the planet. When you're talking about a population of 7 billion, little choices can make a huge impact. Shoot, just going by the U.S. population, you're talking about 300 million, so we can't just la-ti-da through life anymore, thinking that it doesn't matter.

To illustrate what small choices made by billions can do, I'd like to use the Orangutan and its imminent extinction as an example.

We will be losing the Orangutan in the next few years due to loss of habitat and for what??....so agribusiness can have a cheap supply of a completely un-necessary source of an oil we don't have to use.

Not only is the orangutan dying off...suffering along the way, but the burning of the forests has dumped millions of tons of carbon into the air, poisoned the local waters and destroyed fishing, run people off their traditional lands and made them serfs to the plantation owners. So, in a nutshell, a thoughtless decision made on our behalf by companies in search of profit has wiped out species, fouled the air and water and destroyed a way of life for many people.

We didn't ask for these companies to do this, but we support their decision every time we buy products made with palm oil. Palm oil often isn't labeled as such, so one has to research to be be able to avoid it.

Just as we can't have a democracy without an informed electorate, we can't have capitalism without informed consumers. If we choose to not be informed, these multi-national companies will run amok in the name of profit. The impact they can have is immense, permanent and has global implications.

I could go on and on about this, but instead am posting some videos for those so inclined to view. it will hopefully open some eyes to the tragedies we support just by shopping at the grocery store.

Think about it.

God bless you for spreading the word of being a responsible human being w the earth we've been given to inhabit. I get so discouraged sometimes (maybe it's my age). The Chinese olympics I really could not stomach - in fact, I refused to watch or condone in any way. Ppl I knew thought I was nuts, but I could not believe the world was going to be contributing millions to China's economy - rewarding them for human rights violations and irresponsible (ok, that word is probably not strong enough) manufacturing methods.

We have some standards in this country for manufacturing so that we minimize the damage to the surrounding areas, and what do companies do - move their manufacturing to countries where there are less (if any) manufacturing safety guidelines for humans and for the environment. This is not done to lower our prices as consumers. This is done to increase their profit margin. This also greatly decreases the jobs available in this country, increasing the unemployment rate. I think there should be tax breaks for manufacturers that choose to stay in this country and implement safer manufacturing guidelines. It's a win/win for all of us - jobs for ppl needing jobs and a cleaner planet! We need to start rewarding companies who do things the right way, and start penalizing companies whose only regard is their profit margin (not rewarding them for "questionable" business practices).

Gidget, you get it in such a big way. And, if you're nuts, so am I. You mentioned earlier about us killing off the buffalo. Very appropriate comparison. You could add to it what Pizzaro, Cortez and Balboa did in the 1500's. It's the same mentality at work today, only without the mass murder...at least of humans.

You also nailed it about why these companies are doing such things. In a word....profit. Overseas 'investments' and operations is why Wall Street is doing well while the rest of the country is going downhill. There is no morality or even common sense to it. It's all greed. Of course, they have made many of us complicit in this by offering IRAs instead of just giving us a better wage. That way, we have a vested interest in their profits. It stunts any real protest against these practices and has made us partners in our own demise. And we have our government to thank for allowing these things to happen in the name of 'free trade' and for us to become 'competitive' in the global economy. And it's not just our government. The whole world had become entangled in this mess. I think it's about time we woke up to this global scam that is being put over on us.

Some may think I'm radical...I'm not....just Pi$$ed off!!

I did not know this, or had not considered the IRA angle. Profit and greed, yes. In addition to shortsightedness.
You write such interesting things...not radical.
You should start your own thread and inform us about things...you obviously know so much!
Thank you for sharing.

I agree. We need a responsible human thread of some kind.

How do we find out from Admin if we can do this?
Knowing that it would at times be a bit more "controversial" than the other threads (and yet still not directly about politics or religion, of course) people could participate knowing that. I think it could really be a great thing for YT.

I think it would be great to discuss how to be a more responsible human. We talk about these things already in the way of our pets, but don't often consider how our actions affect the world at large.

The realization of how much the world is changing came to me maybe about 10 years ago. A friend of mine and I were talking about something (don't remember exactly what) and it came up about how many people there were in the world. Anyway, I made the comment about what's gonna happen when they all want a car.

I'm game to discuss more along these lines if anyone else is. Count me in.

Over the weekend I was visiting my daughter (who is trying to live more wisely and healthfully while also being kind to our planet--at 20, so maybe the youth are learning!). We were shopping at a health store and she picked something up with palm oil. I told her about it, thanks to your signature. See, you're doing so much good!

Jen, that's great to hear! I was hoping that my siggie might plant a few seeds of awareness. Now maybe your daughter can pass that along to someone that can pass it along, and they can pass it.....

You know, when I was younger I had such high hopes for our generation. I'm still hopeful, but my generation has disappointed me. We have not only become part of the problem, we've made it worse. We owe the next generation better than that. I think that's why I'm becoming more of an activist these days. Before we leave the stage, we owe it to our children to try and clean up the mess we've created.

Not sure if you've looked at the thread linked in my signature, but I posted a quote there that has kind of become my mantra. Works for me. :D

"The Mightiest Oak Is Just A Little Nut That Wouldn't Give Up"

Thanks for the links. I see your name is Jim, so thank you, Jim!

Is Woogie your dog?

Maybe it could be a "social concerns" thread? Or a "concerned citizens" thread? Bring some light on issues around the world so we can be more informed and maybe there are issues we can help change? (Wylie's Mom is really good w clever writing ideas!)

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

You're very welcome, Jen. Hope they're useful to you.

Yep, Woogie is one of my boys. He's the Clown Prince of my pack. :)

That sounds like a good idea. I've enjoyed discussing things here with y'all, but not many others are posting. Maybe it's the 'Doom Prophets' title that's off-putting. Shoot, even the OP hasn't come back. Gail, where ya' at?

Seriously, there are many things that could fit in with what you're proposing. So many issues have been considered to be on the fringe, but are fast becoming more mainstream concerns. Just becoming aware is a step in the right direction.

Sorry Jim, my puter is broken, and only have short access times to my husbands, and somehow I'm not getting the emails to my account when posts are made to a thread I started:(
Here is one for you; the cost to fix my broken [puter is $400, it is only a small part where the charger goes into, and that is broken, but they'd have to take out the mother board etc etc. So as $400 is almost a price of a new puter, the advice is to get a new one.

I am into a world impact/environment/awares thread. Your Palm Oil is an excellent example of something I can make choices about (relatively easily), and without your thread, I was woefully unaware.

I don't buy bottle water on a regular basis; I installed a water purification system in our home, and bring in my own water to work. All those plastic bottles, either ending up in landfill, or ending up having to be recycled seems un necessary if there is another viable choice.

Maybe "Doom Prophets" is too harsh a title but that was the docu title so I just repeated. But on the other hand, perhaps it does keep in mind, we are facing a point of no return for this environment.

I hope to find a puter this wkend, so should be able to post more after I get it set up to go:)

Much catchier title! :)