Mars info letter - Biewer "Terriers"
 

Interesting letter received , sharing it to help with all those interested and researching the Biewer


We have received your inquiry about Biewer Terriers.

For the detection of mixed-breed dogs, we are currently able to detect signatures of 153 American Kennel Club (AKC) defined breeds and 4 non-AKC breeds. We are working towards expanding this to the full list of AKC registered breeds and more of the popular non-AKC breeds over the next year. Unfortunately, since the Biewer Terrier is not a breed we currently recognize, it will not be included in this expansion of our test.

The analysis is designed to find matches to the breeds in our database, so if the computer can find matches between your dog's DNA and our designated breeds with enough confidence, it will identify them. If your dog does contain a portion of Biewer Terrier, the analysis may identify Minors of breeds that are genetically closely related to it.

However, if the computer cannot find breeds that match with enough confidence, the Biewer Terrier portion will be left blank or it will be considered "too mixed" to call. For the other breeds in your dog, if there is a significant component from a breed that is covered in the test (e.g., a purebred dog in last three generations) then Wisdom Panel MX should be able to detect these other breeds. Overall, it is important to note that the presence of a breed signature that the test does not detect at present may cause inaccuracies in the analysis.

In regards to your purebreed inquiry; Wisdom Panel MX test analyzes over 300 genetic markers to determine the ancestral breed composition of a mixed-breed dog. Within this panel, there are almost no markers which are absolutely specific to one breed. Each breed will have a combination of markers within the panel that represent the breed. Within a mixed-breed dog, depending on the heritage of the breeds, not all of those markers may be passed down through the generations to appear in the genetic make-up of the dog that is tested. For example, on average, you would only expect 25% of the breed markers from a Grandparent to be passed down to the current dog. Thus, the way the test works is to use a best-fit model that is selected on the basis of the highest probability for each breed depending upon the analysis of markers that are found in the current dog. The final report is generated depending on the highest probability breeds found with a lower limit cut-off to ensure that the false positive reports are reduced to a minimum.

The relationship between the markers and breeds is unfortunately proprietary information as it forms the basis of the test and is therefore not publicized. Where pure breed dogs are concerned, most often the report generated by the test will simply indicate the pure strain of the breed in question as no other markers will be found at a high enough confidence level to generate a result. However, although our sample base covers 157 breeds and comprises more than 8,700 samples in total, there are several cases in which pure breed dogs may not be detected as purebred by Wisdom Panel MX test.

First, if the dog in question is not or was not bred within the continental US, even if it is an example of an AKC recognized breed, then we may not pick up the breed signature as the distinctive markers that identify the breed may vary greatly in foreign lines. Secondly, if there has been a very isolated breeding line for the pure breed, then we may not have enough coverage of that breed's gene pool to identify the dog as purebred. For these reasons, we do not advertise or recommend the use of Wisdom Panel MX as a test for confirming the purity of a purebred dog. This is due to the fact that Wisdom Panel MX is designed to find multiple breeds in an analysis, under the assumption that the dog it is testing has more than one breed in its mix. A test to determine breed purity would need to be designed for that purpose and its accuracy validated.


We hope this answers your inquiry. If you have any additional questions, please do not hesitate to contact us at customercare@marsveterinary.com or 888-K9 PET TEST (1-888-597-3883).


Regards,


Mars Veterinary

Customer Care Department

Dog DNA Test | Mixed Breed Analysis | Canine Breed Testing

Not to sound stupid, but, could you explain this to me?

Jan, Can you explain what this means? What are they saying the Biewer Terrier, as they refer to it is? Are they saying that there are several mixed breeds in the Biewer?

I am SO glad I am not the only one that had this go over my head, lol.

i could be way off, but is this saying the biewer is a breed of its own due to mixing other breeds together? i thought that was what some of the groups were already saying? :confused: i have a personal interest in biewers and want to learn everything i can from all biewer people :D

that is what i gathered but i could be wrong :p :)

It sounds to me that the Mars Panel is reaffirming what has been said all along by some of us. This is a dog that is a breed of its own and is already referred to as the Biewer Terrier.
Maybe Jan can explain what this letter means to her.

LOL I've re-read it 5 times now, and from what I'm getting from it, it looks like what the BTCA has been saying all along...WOO HOO!!!!

LOL We were typing at the same time!

There were a couple of things that didn't quite make sense to me as we have been collaborating with the Scientists from MARS for almost 2 years now and the statement: caught me by surprised. Through our many conversations we talked about the UK lines quite a bit. Actually if you go on the wisdom panel site you will see that this letter is basically just a repeat of the information on their site.

Thank you Jan for helping the public understand more about the Biewer Terrier

Oh my gosh! Hopefully you are finally understanding the testing that was and is being done on the Biewer Terrier. The Biewer Terrier has its genetic marker and is getting stronger with breeders here in the states dedicated in concentrating on perfecting this breed. We do not have a Yorkshire Terrier. Hopefully all who read this will understand what is being done and the difference in a true PUREBRED BIEWER TERRIER.

Sounds like they are saying, they don't have 100% confidence that results are true based on the limited amount of dogs that have been tested.

Approx 550 samples per breed in their data base. Are these all from american lines? AKC? Biewers originated in Germany

You must have missed my post indicating the testing of the dogs in the UK.
Validation testing has resulted in an average accuracy* of 90%.
Since there aren't a whole lot of things that are 100%, I believe I'll be happy with 90%. So 10 out of 100 dogs may be incorrect. That might answer questions we had about some of the dogs individual test results.

Funny how some people can read the same thing as see totally different things. To me, this is very clear.

The MARS people are stating that their test was developed "FOR THE DETECTION OF MIXED BREED DOGS". To determine the makeup of these dogs, the tests uses DNA from 153 AKC defined breeds and 4 non- AKC breeds. (not yet all AKC breeds - NOTE *"THE BIEWER TERRIER IS NOT A BREED WE CURRENTLY RECOGNIZE, it will not be included in the test)

The test finds matches in the database to these samples and identifies them. If there are significant components from a breed that is covered (e.g. a purebred dog in last three generations), the Wisdom Panel should detect theese other breeds. * "OVERALL, IT IS IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT THE PRESENCE OF A BREED SIGNATURE THAT THE TEST DOES NOT DETECT AT PRESENT MAY CAUSE INACCURACIES IN THE ANALYSIS"

"Where pure breed dogs are concerned, most often the report generated by the test will simply indicate the pure strain of the breed in question as no other markers will be found at a high enough confident level to generate a result. HOWEVER, although our sample base comvers 157 breeds and comprises more than 8,700 saples in total, THERE ARE SEVERAL CASES IN WHICH PURE BREED DOGS MAY NOT BE DETECTED AS PUREBRED BY WISDOM PANEL MX TEST.

1) IF THE DOG IN QUESTION IS NOT OR WAS NOT BRED WITHIN THE CONTINENTAL U.S. even if it is an exaqmple of an AKC recongnized breed, THEN WE MAY NOT PICK UP THE BREED SIGNATURE AS THE DISTINCTIVE MARKERS THAT IDENTIFY THE BREED MAY VARY GREATLY IN FOREIGN LINES.


2) IF THERE HAS BEEN A VERY ISOLATED BREEDING LINE FOR THE PURE BREED, THEN WE MAY NOT HAVE ENOUGH COVERAGE OF THAT BREED'S GENE POOL TO IDENTIFY THE DOGA AS PUREBRED.


FOR THESE REASONS, WE DO NOT ADVERTISE OR RECOMMEND THE USE OF WISDOM PANEL MX AS A TEST FOR CONFIRMING THE PURITY OF A PUREBRED DOG. .... A TEST TO DETERMINE BREED PURITY WOULD NEED TO BE DESIGNED FOR THAT PURPOSE AND ITS ACCURACY VALIDATED.

I don't see anything hard to understand in these statements.. they are saying clearly that the test you have been using to prove that the Biewer is not a purebred dog IS NOT or WAS not made for that purpose, nor is it accurate for that purpose. (No matter how loudly you say it, it still doesn't work .. you are using an invalid measure to try and prove something you want to prove.)

There are two VALID reasons why you may have gotten the results you did.. we know that these dogs were not bred in the US and we KNOW that it was a very limited, isulated breeding pool from which to draw. This makes perfect sence.

I'm sorry for making this SUCH a big deal and I'm sorry for getting so passionate about this ... But is IS a big Deal.. People are trying to high jack an entire breed.. sell them down the river.. say they are something they are not JUST so they can get AKC acceptance ??? Is it worth it ???

We will get there, but we will do it the RIGHT way. There is no need to deceive, falsify or twist .. these dogs deserve nothing less. We don't need to go in the back door.

-Diana :animal-pa

As someone NOT in this debate you guys are having over the biewers let me give my 2 cents (which u will probably blow off)...

After reading that letter it seems to me that this test doesn't help Biewers at all. its says that if your dog is a biewer, since the MARS test doesn't recognize the breed, it will choose similar breeds to it. How does that help? "hey, your dog may be a biewer but since we really don't know let throw in some dogs that may look like biewers". how does that help? how is that accurate?

plus it says that it may not recognize lines from other countries so it would give innacurate results for that too.

---

It just seems like this debate between two groups of biewer breeders is getting worse and worse. Back when i last was paying attention to this debate, which was a while ago, biewers were still bred from yorkies. When did that change for some of you? I thought the first beiwer came from two standard yorkies that were carriers for the piebald gene?

RFLOL

I don't see a fence, and I know this wasn't directed at me. But Obie, why do you keep popping in here just to spew insults and innuendo? You have stated many times you are an "experienced" breeder, yet never care to sign your name or say who you are?

Wonder why that is????

Any time someone points out a different view point it seems to be incorrect in your eyes, so all that is mighty is YOU is that the testament???

So the right side of the fence is where? YOUR side? :D

One more rude comment and this is closed.

If you can't have a respectful discourse about this, then don't post. Otherwise, please see YT rules and know that you run the risk of being suspended. There is NO REASON to be nasty about this subject. What does that accomplish?

I am one that has had my Biewer tested. I know his Mom was from Germany and so was his Dad.
MY boy's test results came back as 75% Yorkie, 25% Shih Tuz, 25% Peke. So is he a Biewer or Biewer Terrier or a mix breed?? His Mother and Father are registered Biewer Terriers through BTRA.. Biewer Terrier or Biewer?? Three different show venues and called to the ring as Biewers.. Which standard??? Yeah they are ready for AKC! Maybe better to slow down and enjoy the breed a lttle longer.. Why are some in such a rush for AKC?? What is the hurry? Is this a race. Mars testing isn't even sure what they are other than what we have told them they are.. That is what the letter reads to me.

There was another test referenced here on this site earlier from a member with a Biewer that tested a majority Yorkshire on the Mars test. I still wonder about a test and "science" that is sponsored by a Dog food company. I wonder how much money they have made off of this wisdom panel test so far. JMHO The pet industry is a BILLION dollar industry and this "testing" seemed to be geared towards pet owners in general, not for identifying purebreeds

Thank you Wylie's mom, it's the same people as usual trying to get the thread closed when things don't go the way they want.

I'm getting sick to death of hearing Diana and so many others saying that we did this for AKC acceptance and we did that for AKC acceptance. Who in the BTCA ever said we changed the name, tested our dogs, or did anything else for AKC acceptance? On the contrary, I know of two other clubs that have posted just such a thing. Get your facts straight when referring to the BTCA please.

You seem to be missing the key words and those are MAY BE! I can point out a lot of what they say as fact and one of the things they say are that their tests are 90% accurate. You have to read everything, not just a few words to understand what is being said.

Once again, we did not set out to prove the Biewer Terrier was a purebred. Being there has never been a breed signature developed for the breed, that would be impossible. What we set out to prove, was that the Biewer Terrier was not a Yorkshire Terrier and we did exactally that.

Now you can continue to cause trouble for the breed you say you love or you can help develop it. A lot of the people claiming to love this breed have no more concern for a healthy foundation than the man in the moon and it's quite evident who those people are.

The majority of the BTCA is made up of VERY EXPERIENCED breeders, not first time breeders or pet owners. We know what it takes to better a breed and understanding the heritage of the breed is among many of the things it takes.

[QUOTE=tatertot;2629158]I am one that has had my Biewer tested. I know his Mom was from Germany and so was his Dad.
MY boy's test results came back as 75% Yorkie, 25% Shih Tuz, 25% Peke. So is he a Biewer or Biewer Terrier or a mix breed?? His Mother and Father are registered Biewer Terriers through BTRA.. Biewer Terrier or Biewer?? Three different show venues and called to the ring as Biewers.. Which standard??? Yeah they are ready for AKC! Maybe better to slow down and enjoy the breed a lttle longer.. Why are some in such a rush for AKC?? What is the hurry? Is this a race. Mars testing isn't even sure what they are other than what we have told them they are.. That is what the letter reads to me.[/QUOT


You must have gotten something mixed up, that would make 125%
Wow 25% Shih Tuz(what might that be???)and 25% Peke
At least you don't have to wonder about the ears anymore .LOL

Just goes to show you if you got the money there is always some company willing to help you spend it. I work for a Vet so my test run by the Mars testing company was $85.00. That and 2 cc of poor boy's blood. I personally met the Doctor that is in charge of this testing in Orlando at the NAVC in January. I spent quite some time talking to him and he surprised me with quite a few things I wasn't aware of. One being that they are now developing a test that will tell someone that has a mix breed puppy how big they will become when they are adults.

Thank you Wylie's mom. I hope I haven't offended anyone. Only here to help educate.

Let me introduce myself. I am Iris Star, of Stars Classical www.biewerterrier.com. I am a Board member of the Biewer Terrier Club of America (BTCA). An extreme amount of expense and continued expense is going into the genetical testing of the Biewer Terrier. It has been proven by our private study to be a pure bred dog. We have not shared all those studies as it is still in the making. We are not here to offend anybody, but to set the record straight. The BTCA is trying, through genetic testing, prove once and for all the Biewer Terrier is a purebred dog. All tests done individually are going to come back with unclear or negative results. You must be in a controlled group to understand what the testing is all about and you must be a participant within that group. I am, and never was here to start trouble. Just to set the facts straight. As a young generation you may or may not be, you are seeing history in the making through genetic testing.

I know I'm tired, but, is this not 125%:D I am thinking you or your results are wrong. So, can you post again, I'm curious to know exactly what he is
thanks

Now, will you please identify yourself, if to non other than me? Thank you.:)

Now, that really depends on how much food, and what kind you feed them. So, I really don't see that happening.

Why do it privately if you are "here to "educate" Most who are blessed with the profession of educating are accredited in their area of "expertise"
The dogs you are testing are yours, your club. So what you come up with will be what you come up with based on the testing of your dogs.
Please do not be offended and contiuously on the offensive when someone disagrees or has a different opinion on studies than you do.
This is after all, about discussion, not who is qualified to "educate" the public.

[quote=Delightyorkies;2629191]Wow I can not add. My mistake I believe that it was interpeted that way to me.. Not sure by whom but I do admit I am bad at the math.. Excuse me I"ll just pulled out his paperwork
Quote: "Significant Amount of Yorkshire Terrier, Trace Amount Pekingese and Shih Tzu"( switched the U and Z OOPPPSS)
By the way his ears are just fine thank you they are up.. Thank you pointing out my poor math skills and spelling errors..
Now my other boy You'll really love too. He is out of Cooper.. Nice small erect ears!

My name is and has been since March of 2006 in my signature line. I have never changed my user name, have been the same person under the same username for over three years on YT. :) And have identified myself to all I have talked to over the years here. :):)

I think experience in breeding is wonderful, I have not been at it as long as some.. and I'm sure you have alot you could share but there is alot you could learn too. You don't have to rip a breed apart to better it.. We have a wonderful breed here, let's take some time to watch it and work on changes gently and with a brush, not a hammer.

-Diana :animal-pa

[quote=Delightyorkies;2629191]

We could probably all be adults here and act like it. No where should anyone be here to criticize each others dogs, I think that is for the judges in the rings if I am correct? And as to spelling, we all make mistakes typing, its called a typo, oops I mean typ-o :)