Me 'n Wallace
 

After having this nagging feeling in the back of my mind for weeks I decided to call Wallace Haven today.

He owns Puppy Haven Kennel in Wisconsin (www.puppyhavenkennel.com)which some of you may recall was the subject of a very heated "puppymill thread" recently, and, after talking to him I don't think he has ever told a lie, or even so much as a fib, in his life. He was THE nicest man and he is soooo proud of his kennel. His community is also proud of him.

I wish every one of you who were involved in that thread would call him and talk to him yourself because you would know that he is not running a "puppymill" or anything close to it.

He uses no wire on the floors of the pens as people said and he is very careful who he sells to and his name is on the paperwork.

He stands behind his word that if anyone contacts him and complains that the place that sold them one of his puppies didn't do right by them he will compensate them himself and not do business with that establishment again.

He is licensed by the USDA and thinks all breeders should have to be inspected like he is before they can sell puppies. The State of Illinois requires a license to sell puppies too and he is licensed by them, and he has a lot of people refer to him so he has no problem not doing business with any establishment that he feels is not treating people fairly.

His phome number is 608-837-2858 and I would encourage anyone who thinks he mistreats his animals in any fashion to call him and you will feel better. He is the "Salt of the earth".

Also, he never received an email nor sent an email to anyone from Yorkietalk about the thread that was posted about his kennel or the member who claimed to have secretly inspected his kennel.

So, we no longer have to feel like "one of our own" is guilty of this as we were previously lead to believe.

If you do call please post your impressions here.

JMO, someone who has THAT many breeds, I don't care how clean the place is, it's a mill. There's no way that with that many dogs and his "hybrid designer dogs" that he can give each one personal attention that they deserve even if their place is really clean. To me, it sounds like a breeding machine plant, even if the guy is nice. I'm sure he is totally nice, but that doesn't mean that he couldn't be running a mill. The dogs may be treated better than most other mills, but in the end TO ME it looks like a mill.

i agree, on the phone you cannot determine how someone is. they can be god on the phone but in person be someone else. i don't think he would have been mean or admit to how he really runs his place over the phone. just like on the internet you can act and be whoever you want to be. therefore :confused: .

That is totally true plus many breeders that are USDA liscensed, I've been told, have to breed to make a certain number of dogs a year to get that liscense. Screams puppy mill to me.

I urge you not to take my word for it but to call him for yourselves....please. Please do not judge without talking to him. If you can take the time to post a response you can take the time to talk to him. :)

personally i don't feel i need to talk to him or call him. for what? to prove to me that he's not a mill because he "sounds nice" to me it's pointless to call him. like i said earlier he can be who he wants to be,he can sound how he wants to sound.hell i can sound like i'm korean over the phone if i wanted too. unlees i can go there and see his place with my own eyes and be proven wrong about him, talking to him isn't going to make a difference. im my personal opinion...

Haven't you ever just "known" that someone is the "real deal" by talking to them? What could it hurt? It would really mean something if a "skeptic" called him too.

kim, i am not going to call him...maybe another "skeptic" will but i'm not going to. to me it's pointless. :confused:

I appreciate the way that Kim has complimented this man and his kennels. Not always are we available to see with our eyes, touch with our hands, or hear with our own ears. It is within our hearts and faith that we find most blessings in our lives.

Having the abiltiy to believe in someone and following our heart gives us so much more than the ease of judging without proof.

There are many yorkies in those kennels right now who are hoping for us humans to be able to fall in love because we gave someone the benefit of the doubt. :aimeeyork

Kim, have you been there? Isn't it funny when you read the explanation of these
Designer Dogs ( another word for mixed breed) they only inherit the good traits
and health of each breed??????????? What a joke!! I love the warranty. At least
he used the right word because it's no guarantee. If there is a congential defect,
he will send you another if you send him your sick dog back to him. Sure who
would do it. And if someone did send their poor dog back would he resell it?? I
wasn't there but I don't think you were either and since I wouldn't buy a designer
dog , I probably would look no further. If he had yorkies in a kennel situation, I
would look no further, If he had CKC in a kennel situation I would look no further,
if he had a cocker in a kennel situation I might look but after I read the Warranty
I would run for the hills!! I'm beginning to think you just love controversy!!

I didn't read the whole thread, but 608 is Wisconsin and its in Wisconsin

I was the person who originally posted that thread about "puppymills advertising". He sells to Petland in Chicago and other pet stores in the country. That bothers me. Who needs a Chihuahua/Bichon mix? I mean, there is no point to a lot of it. And why so many dogs?

This is my opinion- being licensed by the USDA is a red flag in itself. I have no idea who this man you guys are speaking of is, nor do I really care, BUT I do know that the only reason someone needs a USDA license is if they have and are breeding numerous animals. Have you seen the USDA regulations? They are almost a joke! Depending on how many dogs and if they are pregnant, they only require under their regulations such a small space. I cant find the exact measurement, but I know only enough space to barely move. Imagine being in a cage your whole life? But the cage is alright because its USDA regulated? I dont think so...

I also agree that no matter the character of a human being, if they are breeding more than one breed, I cant see how that is a good thing. I had a conversation with Maya's breeder. Yes, she was the nicest lady, told me how her dogs didnt live in cages, how wonderful she was blah blah blah! That was a complete lie as I found out by a later investigation that she does indeed keep her dogs in cages bc one of the USDA inspectors came by and told her she needed to provide more tarp on her cages to prevent the dogs from being wet. Do you think Maya's breeder would have told me that? I dont think so, the picture she painted was flawless. Anyone can tell you anything, I appreciate having faith in people, but come on.

The bottom line is that being inspected by the USDA doesnt mean much. Even if they are treating the animals badly, the USDA doesn't have a lot of inspectors, and very little seems to happen to mills that get bad inspections anyway. I think we have to draw the line somewhere...

Oh my goodness, he is strictly in the business of Mixing dogs? wow...

mixing
 

I just went to his site and looked at the "puppies" page. Eeekkk! What is up with all that mixing of the breeds! Reminds me of "Dr. Frankenstein" trying to play God. Some of those puppies look downright weird! But, I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Not for me. :confused: :(

I was just curious if you read the historical threads on this matter? It doesn't make as much sense if you don't understand the history, but if you haven't I will post the links for you because your assumption that I posted becuase I like controversy is not correct. The point of the thread is that I was framed by a member here and I finally was able to clear my name. I posted in OT so not many newbies or members unfamiliar with the circumstances would see it and not "get it". I was trying not to be too obvious in the wording I used either.

Okay I think just because he keeps his kennels clean does not mean he is not a puppymill. I mean come on do you see how many freakin' dogs he has? and why have so many mixed breeds if it is not just to make money. (Why have ONE male yorkie in a cage FULL of female bichons who ever says i want a yorkie/bichon mix?) The only reason i believe that a person has that many dogs breeds and mixes just seems like he is in it for the money. JMO. There can be many defintions as to what a puppy mill is.

Even though I think we are talking in circles on this subject and getting nowhere fast, I did respond to the original thread so I feel compelled to chime in again. Everyone that responded in the heated thread gave their opinions based on what they saw on the website - the same one on this thread. My opinion hasn't changed...it's a mill. I'm against them. The issue is that black and white to me. I don't think that is the way dogs should live so someone can make money.
I know there was a second thread that made it seem even worse but that doesn't change what we all thought in the first one.

Don't get it
 

:confused: [QUOTE=SoCalyorkiLvr]I was just curious if you read the historical threads on this matter?

No Kim, I have not and I'm sorry about what may have happened to you on
a personal note but it beats me as to what it has to do with judging this
website.

I agree Erin! There isnt even a point in discussing it...

I TOTALLY agree with these replys -

That site was a small scale mill - so .....
1st - WHY defend a puppy mill ? Clean, dirty, small or large - a mill is a mill - why defend it?
2nd - We already know that visit and email and other stuff may not have happened ...ok...Fine - We move on and leave that alone. What is talking about that accomplishing ?
3rd...ANYONE can sound wonderful on the phone is right - people lie - With the protests against puppy mills all over the place - do you really THINK someone is going to brag about operating a mill ?
4th - ANY BREEDER who sells to PETLAND is VERY bad news. Would YOU buy from a breeder that sells dogs to Petland (who also buys from the largest broker) - the EVIL HUNTE CORP ?

A Breeder is a too nice term for someone like him who sells that many dogs ...Plus - he has so many mixes there is only one reason - PROFIT. I hope it doesn't look like I'm picking on the User who started this thread - but wow - I just don't see whatever she is seeing in this 'nice' man.

I actually am not responding any more on this thread because it's probably headed in a bad direction....but I sure am against websites like that and wish they were more regulated and in some cases - shut down. I'm so against mass breeding I want to scream - but I promise I won't.

and I agree...eeeeek on those poor puppies.

i agree 100000000000000000% with villette! :thumbup:

my 2nd and last response....True - there's is no point discussing this site. This thread is yelling for controversary and I am going to be a good girl today....and worry more about all those poor people in N.O. and Miss. - What a tragedy ....and I hope we're all doing a small part to help these people - I just got back from Petco dropping off all the things I rounded up ....Plus dog and Cat food for those poor animals waiting for their families in shelters.

In my opinion, a puppymill is a place that is filthy, and disgusting and where dogs are mistreated and abused and there is rampant disease, sickness, and untreated injuries.

If breeders care properly for the dogs, they not mistreated or abused, then they are not a puppymill in the negative sense of the word. I think it is great that someone can make money doing something they love with animals, I have no problem with cross breeding (we have yorkies because of cross breeding) and I think in the real world the law and most people treat animals like property, not like people. That is what society has determined is acceptable. Would i want my dogs to live their lives in a kennel? No, but that is no reason for me to judge someone who does when he is not breaking the law or mistreating the animal in any way.

I have said repeatedly that my dogs are priceless to me and I like them more than most people (they are more honest for sure) and I would pay any amount of money to have them in my lives as they bring me and my family such joy, but I do not feel that I should be vilified because I do not think we should be trying to shut down places who breed dogs where the dogs are treated well. I think there is enough animal abuse in this country which is a far bigger emergency than these breeding operations that care properly for the dogs. JMHO.

Villette~

You have a "strong" voice on here and I think if you spoke to Wallace Haven and then came on here and gave your impressions of him it would be enlightening for all.

Won't you consider a 5 minute pnone call to determine if he is what you think he is? I know it won't "prove" anything, but maybe we could at least LEARN something from your conversation with him. I am pretty sure it wouldn't change your opinion but it may benefit you to see it from his point of view as the commercial breeder. Just TALK to him.

What could it hurt? :confused:

Kim. Why would I want to talk to someone I want to slap upside the head ?

I AM AGAINST MASS BREEDING - you of all people know this ...we seem to be at opposite ends of this discussion over and over. I would rather spend that 5 minute phone call trying to HELP animals rather than defend a so called "Breeder" like that just to prove people on this site wrong.

Honestly - I don't know what you're going for here - IMHO - I think with your brains...you could be doing something far more constructive that could actually HELP dogs - rather than putting all this effort into defending a mass breeder. No offense - but that dude is bad news.

Oh I totally dont agree with that. A puppymill is much more than that. So do you think it is ok for dogs, our precious priceless animals, to be stuck in a cage their whole lives just bc they are getting food, water, and some human contact? What you have described is the worse situation of a mill. That is the problem with the "USDA" licnese, as I mentioned earlier, they dont have many inspectors and only are able to take care of the mills as you just described above for the most part. That is why mills are able to "just get by" in terms of the living conditions for the animals. Plus, without physcially seeing where mr. Haven lives, there is no way to determine how his animals are treated. You could be speaking of a man that keeps all his dogs in one cage, which is possibly how he started mixing? I wouldnt even believe pictures if I saw them- we all know what you are able to find on the internet these days.

If dogs could speak, they would feel sad, hurt, and angry that anyone would be agreeing that it is ok for them to live a life other than the life that your pups, or my pups, or any spoiled with love pup, are able to live. I believe that if a dog cant be placed in a home that provides the love that each one of ours gives, than a breeder shouldnt breed them (and that is why most reputable breeders will place their dogs in homes that are approved). That is not to say that Mr. Haven may get lucky and place his pups in a wonderful home, but what about their parents who are stuck in the cage, or confined area, and are continuing to be bred. Just sad, sick, and scary! The scariest part is that someone might actually think a mill IS ONLY a place where dogs are mistreated. I guess I just have a different opinion of mistreatment....I am picky when it comes to how any dog has to live!

Just a word of advice...please be careful of what you say when you mention "Puppy Mill".

My fear out of these "puppy mill" threads,....is that all of a sudden, you have a Yorkietalk lynch squad.

For the sake of being Devil's advocate...

What makes you an "expert" at knowing what is a puppymill?

If you were asked to testify in court,...and they asked about your credentials...what makes you CERTIFIABLY a puppy mill expert in the eyes of the court?

If your answer is: Because I BELIEVE dogs should not blah blah blah...
then you can expect to be laughed at.

Just a word of advice to anyone on here that starts running to the hills screaming "Puppy mill"...you had better be careful. The very words that you say...can get you in a whole lot of trouble in court (libel, slander, defamation of character, etc.).

I say this...because there is at least one incident that I know about, where an automotive enthusiast had posted remarks about an automotive dealership that had performed work on his car. I don't know all the details, but from what I understand,...the dealership sued and won.

I'm not a fan of puppy mills, but I also don't like the fact that people can possibly ruin the name of a perfectly legitimate business. Most of which is behind the business owner's back, as opposed to in their face.

You don't agree w/ the way they run their business? That is fine. You are entitled to that opinion. HOWEVER, for you to run around and post remarks that can be considered libel...is wrong.

You think that a person who breeds animals (dogs) as a business is wrong. Fine. But guess what? There is NO LAW that says this is illegal. Maybe it is morally against your beliefs but that is all...

Just a word of advice...

I don't believe that these types of operations should be allowed to operate now matter how clean, or cared for they seem. Having dogs live like that for someone's profit is just wrong. Its still is a mill.

To me places like this are the reason of the amount of mistreated animals and the cause of thousands of poor dogs being put to sleep each day. They do not make sure the thousands of dogs that they bring into this world get taken care of properly, or that their dogs get spaded or neutered to cut down on the pet population. They sell to pet stores who sell to anyone who will fork over the money, they do not care what happens to the dog.

It is sad that these breeders make so many animals suffer so they can profit. Maybe the dogs he has live in a nice clean prision but what about all the puppies that those dogs will bring into this world. Can he say that he does not add to the problem of pet population?

Does he spend the money to do health testing before he breeds his dogs? Does he stick to breed standards, no.

Its just sad.

I would only buy a puppy from a responsible breeder who cares for her pups. Breeds to better the breed and for the love. One that has a spade/neuter clause and feels not only responsible for the puppies she brings in this world but all the ones that might follow from them. And does all he/she can to prevent her animals for being abused and adding to the overwhelming pet population.

I never once associated anyone's business with a puppymill. I am speaking of the general term mill, and I dont believe that would put any business on the line. As I mentioned earlier, I dont know Mr. Wallace Haven, nor do I wish to, BUT i DO know what it means to be USDA licensed, and I do know that I personally consider any place that keeps animals in a cage to be bred most of their lives is a mill IMO. I dont know how Mr. Haven keeps his pups, I was just saying in general terms that if he did keep his pups in cages, they might get good homes, but what about the parents. That is allowed to be said, there is no business invovled with my definition.