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-   -   My view on pet store puppies..... (https://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/general-yorkshire-terrier-discussion/56794-my-view-pet-store-puppies.html)

Breeze 10-31-2006 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donna Jean
Thank you,

Their is no way to regulate what any breeder is doing without being State Licensed, then at least you have a visit one time during the year, and to renew your Lic. they come to your house, inspect, and spend a great deal of time making sure all your dogs get along, know their names, do not have matts or long nails, have good venelation, heat, air, outside enviorment with sun, and a place to get exercise.

You also have to make sure, you put all their dishes in the dishwasher, clean bedding a mim. of once a week ( my babies get clean beds every nite, with a clean polar fleece blanket. ) washable walls, floors, and counter tops, you must be very, very clean and steril, The list is a long one, and I think they do a very good job staying on top of your breeding business.

They also check your records, which i feel is sooooo very important!!!! To be a small hobby breeder you can have no more than 99 dogs including puppies per year, in the State of Co.. That is a very large number of dogs, and I personally do not know of any one that can take care of that many dogs and puppies without a lot of full time help!!! The Pet industry is a large one and is very difficult for the State to stay on top of, they barley have enough staff to issue a lic. every year, to the breeders that are honest enough to apply for one, let alone try to find a puppy mill and put them out of business.

I think a breeder's worst nightmare is being caught without a Lic. to breed their dogs, I do not know what the fine is, but I do know that getting Licensed, and a special use permit from the County gave me a great deal of peace. My dogs are much more than just a breeding business, my dogs are my pets, my babies, and I would gladly give up my breeding business just to be able to keep all my adult dogs legal in the County. I don't have to worry about someone turning me in now, and maybe taking my dogs away from me.

Before I got my lic. I worried someone would turn me in, and maybe they could take my babies, the fine I could handle, taking any of my puppies would have killed me. I know I got a Royal Screw from the County,( however every cloud has a silver linning,I now have more time to get back into showing) basicly anyone else in the County can have four litters per year, and if they wanted to breed that bitch twice, they could have as many as 8 litters a year,( with the 4 dog per family rule to be legal in the County, but they are not legal in the State.) ( Our County is over the State,)that is a LOT of litters, and I think that many dogs breeding twice a year, could well be considered a puppy mill, you can not take care of 8 litters a year. These people should have a lic. from the State, as they have over 2 litters per year.

If your breeder is not State lic. they are not State regulated, so don't buy your puppies from them. These people need to be supervised, checked on, and compley with the law. It is the only way to know if a breeder is reputable or a puppy mill, the difference is vast!!!

I think it is a place to start, to try to keep these breeders under control, the only way to find them is to police your own back yard, AKC is pretty much on top of anyone that registere's 5 litters or more they check on you yearly so register them with AKC, so when you get an AKC dog you at least know the breeder is ethical.

AKC does surprise visits, and you better have it all together, they are really on top of your paper work, DNA's, the condition of your home, and your dogs, it is a 10,000.00 dollar fine if the DNA's do not match or anything is wrong with your paper work, or if your dogs are not in good shape and well groomed. Along with the fine they can close you down for a year, so all you breeders who have over 2 litters a year get licensed by your state, you will sleep so well at night and it will give you great peace.

I am a very small breeder, I will even be smaller now with only being able to have 2 litters a year, in the past 4 years in the breeding business I have had 13 litters, an avg. of 3.25 litters per year. I want you to know for me that was lot of hard, hard work, and I feel that having only 2 litters will make my life so much easier!!!! I might even be able to get back into showing, which is why I decided to do this in the first place.

The yorkie business should be about quality, not quanity, these precious little ones need the attention of an infant for the first 6 months to year of their lives. Without having anyone issueing a Lic. how do we know what the living envioument is of the yorkies you are getting. I also know the laws vary from State to State, some states do not have any laws, and I also know the laws are different from County to County, find out what your laws are and abide by them, it will make for a really good nites sleep, and it is nice to reasure your clients that you are above board on your breeding business.

It will also let you client know you are not a puppy mill. Breeders may be able to stash dogs in cages, when people come over to see the puppy they want to buy, but you can not hide from the State or AKC!!!! The only way to stop puppy mills is a baby step here and a baby step there till we can catch them, those baby steps add up. Know your breeder, ask to see their lic, make sure you get your AKC papers, and it will help put a stop to the breeders that are in for it for only the money.

Here it is with a few breaks, I am so glad I read it and could feel your passion, and learned quite a bit. Thanks Donna Jean :)

Donna Jean 10-31-2006 09:27 PM

Puppy Mills
 
Puppy Luv,

Thank you so much for taking the time to break my long point of view into paragraphs, that was so nice of you.

I'm with Carol Jean, what can we do on this forum to make a difference, can we get a petition going, and demand that our congress men help solve this problem of the abuse of animals that goes on in puppy mills and kennels.

Each State needs to get their regulations in place, as does each County. When applying for my Special Use Permit, the County did not even want to go there, you say Kennel to them, they think big problems, too complicated, to much work, they would not even separate me from a kennel, which I do not have a license for a kennel, you get a license for Breeding, which I have, or a license for Boarding, do you think I could make them call me a Breeder, and the Vet that was applying for a Boarding Lic. a Boarding Lic. NO, they insisted that we get a kennel lic. it was easier for them, and they do not want to do anything to make it more complicated.

My dogs live in my home, have the run of the house, sleep in my bed, and have a large, large, large fenced yard, maybe about 3,000 sq. ft, and 1800 sq. ft of decking. They prefer you keep your dogs inside in cages!!!!!!!!!! I will not keep my dogs in cages!!!!!! I even got a special wavier from the State saying my dogs could all run together as they all got along well and if any problems arose, such a a bitch in heat, it was easy to separate them in the facilities I have for them. They would rather you have a seperate building for the dogs. With the dogs in my home, I can take better care of them, Yorkies do not want to be away from their owner, they are PETS, they share our household with us, we sleep with them, they are on our furniture, and I never let them out of my sight, with the exception of nite time when we all sleep, I have 2 by 4 cages in my bedroom so I can sleep with all of them.

The County wants all dogs to be treated the same, same reg. for a Yorkie is there is for an Elk Hound. They want everything to be exactly the same, saying a dog is a dog. Well an Elk Hound can have as many as 44 puppies in two litters, where a Yorkie could have as many as 8 puppies in two litters, yet we have to have the same rules.

I think the State has it all figured out, and their are different reg. for small or toy dogs than for the larger outside breeds like Huskies, And Elk Hounds.

So in my opinion we would have to start with the State, than get the County's to go along with the State as they are the ones that will be doing the inspections, the County does not have that kind of man power.



I think the State is very on top of the people who are licensed breeders, however in my situation the County and State do not work together, and they both have different ideas, like I can have 2 litters, a Boarding facility can not have more than two litters. So to get my kennel lic. from the county I had to go along with the same reg. as the Boarding facility, with the exception they can have 40 dogs and two litters, they are on 6 acres, and I can have 15 dogs and no more than 2 litters, and I am on 4 acres boarding BLM.

How can you get rid of the puppy mills when you can not even get the County to give you the time of day. The State you can work with, it is all very clear and black and white, you try to get the County to go along with the State rules as they are the ones who will be regulating, and they have to have their say and do as they please, just to let you know where the power is.

It's hard to get any power going in either direction when you can not get the County to work with the State, and the State is the one who will regulate you.

I guess my question is where do you start, the State or the County, my feeling if you are going to petition you have to get the County to go along with the State. That is not going to be an easy thing to do, as every State and every County have different rules and regulations.

In this situation I think all State and Counties could have the same rules and regulations to make it easier for everyone to understand, and there for abide by.

Carol Jean, you seem to have a lot of very good energy, what can we all do to get this ball rolling and make a difference, and save the lives of some of these well deserved dogs, and put an end to brokers and puppy mills!!!! And make sure all the breeders are also doing their job to be State and County governed.

God knows these precious animals deserve a break and a good better quality of life!

Their are soooooooooooooo many readers that contribute to these forums that have the brains and energy to really make a difference if we will all come together and try to find a solution to these problems, I for one would really like to see something good come out of this forum, to put an end to puppy mills, brokers, and unethical breeders. To take a stand and move forward.

What does everone else feel we can do to make a difference and turn this forum into getting every thing regulated to stop the Puppy mills, Brokers, and Bad Breeders that sell to Puppy Mills and Brokers? I just know we can make a difference and turn things around for the protection of all the little furbabies we love so much.

SnowWa 10-31-2006 11:08 PM

QUOTE: Carol Jean, you seem to have a lot of very good energy, what can we all do to get this ball rolling and make a difference, and save the lives of some of these well deserved dogs, and put an end to brokers and puppy mills!!!! And make sure all the breeders are also doing their job to be State and County governed.

--------------------------

Thank you, Donna Jean ---

I wish so much that I had more time than I have...... I am serious about this. I am 66 years old and have three jobs - I always work more than 40 hours a work and more often I work more than 50 hours a week.

I do have time to do some things - but I know for a fact that a lot of you here on YT have much more time (and energy) than I have.

I think as a start - I'll get together a list of Congressmen (from each State) that we can all write to. The truth is that they need to get thousands and thousands of letters -- and, they need to get these letters over and over again.... not just a flurry of them - and then nothing after that.

-------------

I don't know a lot about petitions - or what they can accomplish - but I think this should be looked into ....

**** Unfortunately - still (after many posts of mine on this subject) I continue to see many of you loving to jump on a soap box and state your own personal opinions - but not many of you (like Donna Jean) jumping in and saying "What can we do?"

I'll get a list of people we can write to -- but already I can think of a million other things that need to be done..... like I said earlier - trying to close puppymills in this country would be a huge job that would take a lot of people, a lot of effort, and a lot of work. It would be no easy task...right?


Carol Jean

Itspuppyluv 11-01-2006 03:14 AM

We have signed petitions, we have written our representives - some even respond back. I have a letter sitting here from my congressman Jim Saxton from about two weeks ago. We had someone here that knew someone that worked for Oprah and tried to get her involved. People have written Ellen Degeneres. People have contacted newspapers, written to radio stations and the news. Admin even created another forum just for this Millbusters.com
I'm sure there is more that I'm forgetting. We do more than jump on soap boxes and state opinions. Tell us what else we can do.

This is a huge but very legal problem backed by millions of dollars. So much money and so few people that know or care enough to want to change it.
I applaud you for wanting to do something, it is a lot easier said than done.

Mitzis Mom 11-01-2006 03:32 AM

It is a big problem we are talking about here and I think it is only one approach to solve it by not buying from a pet store. IMO if we are really serious about shutting down puppy mills we have to take other actions too

1. put pressure on the kennel clubs to not give out registration papers for puppies from puppy mill owners

2. put pressure on the legislative for a effective law against puppy mills

3. and another law to forbid selling dogs and cats in pet stores at all (like there is in other countries) :animal-pa

Mitzis Mom 11-01-2006 03:36 AM

Oooops... didn't see those post before me... sorry!

I agree, it's quite a task but if we don't give up and try to organize it, eventually it will be a success!

Donna Jean 11-01-2006 09:39 AM

Puppy Mills
 
Hi, I know all of you have so much positive energy, now to direct it were it will do the most good.

Carol Jean is going to get a list of all our State officials. That will be great!

I think it would also be important to get every States, Rules and Regulations on how many dogs they can have in the County, City requirements, so we would need to know All the Citys in each State, and All the County's in each state. We would have to get that information from the Dept of Agriculture, since all States are different it would be nice to see the difference and try to make everything the same so it is a very BLACK and WHITE issue easy to understand by all. Just like many of you have already said, make it illegal to sell puppies and kittens in Pet Stores, That is Black and White, that would take the wind out of Brokers and Puppy Mills!!!!!!!!

I know a lot of these Puppy Mills and Brokers are all over the internet and are hard to identify, as they do not list all their dogs, pretend to show, and have someone doing a beautiful Web Site for them, that they hide behind. It would be nice to make everything universal, so if a Puppy Mill gets shut down in one State they can not move to another.

This is so hard to know where to start I know when I was trying to get my Special Use Permit, their were some many hoops to jump through, a ton of red tape, and I just had to wade through it a baby step at a time, a year later and over 12,000.00 later iI got my special use permit. It wasn't what I wanted, and I am having to place some of my dogs, and only have 2 litters a year, but i think that can eventually change, the law before was a mim. of four dogs per house hold in the County. I you wanted more you would have to have 1 acre per dog. So if you had 20 dogs, you would have to have 20 acres. The same rule applied for Kennels, No one can afford that kind of property to have a Kennel to board and rescue dogs. We were able, with a lot of patience and time to change that rule that a Kennel could be on two acres, and house no more than 40 dogs,and could not have more than 2 litters a year. and they had to be regulated by the State and be State Licensed. So we know have one new rule in Garfield County that is Black and White.

That was a big step, so I know if we can get organized we can get the ball rolling. My stand in this whole mess was to bring the closet breeders out of the closet, let them get legal and not be afraid they were going to be found out about or shut down, these are the breeders we want to buy our puppies from, they are small breeders, and raise their dogs as pets first in their homes, and than have a few litters a year. The Show Breeders are of course the model for what the small breeders should be producing, they are the ones that set the examples they are the leaders, and they are the ones that already know the rules and regulations, so if they could step forward, and let us know how to get started, it would be a win, win situation. Small breeders would be buying their dogs from show breeders, and hopefully get involved in showing as that is how you can really see the difference in the breed you are interested in, and that should be the goal we all have in mind when we are producing little live babies that should have a future of few problems, and as beautiful and healthy as we can breed.

I truly wanted to make a difference in the quality of the breed, and since I have a few champions, and some very nice dogs, I notice other breeders are having to get a better quality of dog if they want to sell their puppies. I am 62 years old and had to wait till I retired to start this business, but I for one was so sick and tired of getting yorkies with a lot of things wrong with them, the expense of trying to get the proper medical treatment , and sometimes having to endear the heartbreak of losing them. I was committed to make a difference, and I know in our area I can now see that breeders are breeding much better quality of dogs, with lots of champions, and beautiful dogs to start out with. All it is is education, get the facts out there, and let these breeders who are with the mothers and their babies 24/7 for the 3 critical weeks it takes to raise a baby, and know that these breeders are loving all their dogs first and treating them like pets, who are truly out there to better the breed..

I have a friend that I got started in this business who I just love to pieces, she started out on the right foot by getting the best quality of dogs that she could find, raises her dogs in her home, and all of her dogs are drop dead beautiful, her puppies to die for. She will remain small so the dogs get a lot of attention and care, and are not just a money maker for her, they are her beloved pets first, and get the best of care she can provide for them. She is the kink of person you want to get your dogs from, and the kind of breeder that you have the upmost of respect for. These are the breeders we want to keep in business, and if anyone we can make a dent to abolish all Puppy Mills, and Brokers, and get the intergrity back in these breeds. I think this forum can!

I think we would have to have volunteers come forward that would like to see an end to puppy mills step forward. Let us know which State they are from, and maybe get a committee formed with at least a dozen volunteers from that State, find out how many Counties are in that State, and get the rules and regulations for Breeders and boarding faculties in those Counties. I personally would like to see how different everything is, and the larger the difference, the harder it will be to make a crack in the Puppy Mill and Broker Business. However We have to start somewhere.

This is soooooooooooo big, and it isn't going to happen overnite, but at least if we can pull together in this forum we can get some input and get started on this journey that will indeed put an end to the suffering and bad treatment of these wonderful creatures that are our BEST FRIENDS!

Speaking of BEST FRIENDS IN UTAH, MAYBE THEY COULD GIVE US SOME POINTERS ON HOW TO GO ABOUT THIS AND GET STARTED.

I know when I started my business I could not find anyone that said there was a concrete rule, I only found out after the fact, and then had to apply for my application to be reviewed as I was in violation of the County's rules. Not a good position to be in. It was a long and tough year for me, and because the County insisted on calling me a Kennel, no one wants to live next door to a kennel!!! A hobby breeder is a different thing. I was told no one is looking for hobby breeders, they are looking for dogs running at large, barking all night, harassing wild life, etc. etc. Puppy Mills, not me. I think their are a lot of breeders that are or were in the same boat i was in, you are State Licensed, your dogs are AKC so you think everything is o.k.

For me to find out different turned out to an expensive and uphill battle, and a slow process that I was in constant fear that I would not get my Permit, and have to move as giving up all my dogs was not an option. I am sure that is the reason so many breeder are not State Licensed, and I would think more than half do not even know the regulations in their County, I know no one would give me a straight answer. Even the people who should have known did not know until it came up and I had to go before the board of county commissioners. So I know this is going to be a long hard uphill battle, but I truly think with everyone out there wanting the same thing we CAN make a difference.

I think after we get the facts from each State and County within that State what the rules and reg. are. We can than go to our State Rep. and see how we can better inforce the rules that have be set up to abide by.

I am personally overwhelmed at the enormity of the Puppy Mills and how to find them and personally shut them down! It also scares me, as I want to make sure all of my animals are protected, and no one will try to go after me to make my life a living hell because I am trying to put them out of business, I am sure they are very big and have a lot more money than I do and I worry about the safety of myself and my animals. but we have to start somewhere.

I would love to hear how many people from how many States would like to get involved in this forum, so we can start to get organized . If there are not enough people, than I think the fight will be impossible, as one person can not do it alone. I know so many want to help, and have the same feelings, it would be so nice for whoever is interested to come forward and let us know their feelings and how they think they can help.

Donna Jean 11-01-2006 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gypsyqueen
I think there should be a federal law that allows no more then a certain amunt of dog per kennel puppy mill or home so that all pets even breeding ones would have a quality life.


Right on!!! I agree 100% You can not have more than you can care for and provide quality time and attention to! And most important afford to keep in good health!

txshopper73 11-01-2006 12:19 PM

Sorry but I'm taking this WAY off topic for a sec. Just an observation...

Donna Jean, do you have more than one user account? It seems as though you answered, then turned around an complimented yourself on your previous post...page 2 posts #21 & 22. I'm not disagreeing with what you said...just kinda strange how you answered your own post.

Post #21:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Donna Jean
Every Dog, every puppy on the face of this earth deserves to be adopted into a loving home, no matter where they came from, it's not the puppy's fault, it's not their mommie's fault, the puppy is here, it is alive, and it needs to be in a forever home.

Post #22:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Donna Jean
WELL SAID!!!!!!!! I could not agree more!!!!!!!! Every dog on the face of this earth, no mater wher they came from deserve, and God help them to find their ways in to the loving hearts of their forever homes!!!!!!!


vainchick5 11-01-2006 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by txshopper73
Sorry but I'm taking this WAY off topic for a sec. Just an observation...

Donna Jean, do you have more than one user account? It seems as though you answered, then turned around an complimented yourself on your previous post...page 2 posts #21 & 22. I'm not disagreeing with what you said...just kinda strange how you answered your own post.

Post #21:


Post #22:

:eyetearss :eyetearss I thought something was fishy...lol

txshopper73 11-01-2006 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vainchick5
I thought something was fishy...lol

Kinda reminds you of another site, huh?

vainchick5 11-01-2006 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by txshopper73
Kinda reminds you of another site, huh?

Yup, oh but be careful you don't want to get sueeeeedd :rolleyes:

Dorianyorkie 11-01-2006 05:07 PM

Interesting post but still I would never buy from a pet store. You were one of the few lucky people that bought a dog from a pet store. Pet store are mostly the reason of the many puppy mills around. Sorry but I cannot believe that a responsible breeder would ever sell to a pet store. Just my thought.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnowWa
A bunch of us were discussing pet store puppies the other night at my house, and the end result was that we all admitted that over the years - all of our families have had many wonderful pets that were purchased at pet stores. And - almost none of us ever ended up with a pet that was sick or didn't thrive. In fact, none of us have.

I hate puppymills as much or more than most people - and I think that every last one of them should be shut down. And, I think there should be serious fines and even jail time for most of the people who operate these facilities.

But, I don't think that not buying puppies from pet stores is going to solve this problem or even put a dent in it. We need to go directly to the source and shut down the puppy mills themselves. This is the only way they will every be stopped.

Puppies at pet stores are darling and cute and as loveable as any other puppy in the world, and they deserve a loving home as much as any other puppy does. For this reason - I have no qualms at all about buying a puppy from a pet store. I think during my lifetime I have owned four or five dogs and a couple cats that were purchased at pet stores. And, every one of them was a wonderful pet - and most of them lived a long and healthy life and died from old age.....or close to it.

I have also purchased three birds from pet stores - and have loved and enjoyed every one of them. (I still have two of them.)

I got my Yorkie from a long-time, family-owned pet store here where I live. I was given the breeder's name and have corresponded with her and have gotten pictures and have learned a lot about my Yorkie's parents. I know this doesn't always happen - it's just the way it worked out with the Yorkie pup I got.

I got my Bichon, that I also have now, on line and he was flown from California to me in here in Washington. I went shopping on the internet because there weren't any Bichons in my area. And - he is a wonderful cute little guy that I am very fortunate to have.

I was given a kitten for my birthday - bought another at a pet store - found one in a parking lot - and another was just a stray that showed up at my door. Two others were from a litter that one of my cats had. (Of course, I didn't have all these cats at the same time).

When I was a child - one little puppy I got came from the dog pound - what a joy he was for nearly 11 years of my life.

My point is that a lot of the most wonderful pets we will ever have will come from a variety of different places. And, all of them are loveable and deserve a loving home.

*** I always feel bad when I hear people say, "I saw the cutest puppy in the pet store and I felt so sorry for him. I don't believe in buying puppies from pet stores, so I left - but I've cried for days -- I still cry every time I think about him."

I wouldn't buy a puppy from a pet store if I didn't want a puppy, but if I did want a puppy, and I saw one in a pet store that touched my heart - he would be on his way home with me. And, he would be going to a loving home and have a good life. And he (like all my pets have been) would be worth a million dollars to me.

***** I'm sure if you are looking for a purebred and especially looking for certain traits, or if you're interested in breeding and showing, you are better off dealing with a reputable breeder. But, if your main goal is just getting a wonderful little pet -- why does it matter where it comes from? Especially, when we remember that we can't find a little puppy anywhere that doesn't need a loving home - and that won't love us back a hundredfold - if we give it a family to call it's own.


Carol Jean


Dorianyorkie 11-01-2006 05:15 PM

Who stated that the quote "24 bitches" equal puppy mill??? I am sure some of the show people may have 24 bitches and they take good care of them. I do not consider them puppy mills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gypsyqueen
Ive purchased from breeders and the only diffrence I found (not all) but most is that they show some but they have 50 dogs there breeding and they are not any better cared for I have seen this first hand imagine my horror. Go on line look at kennels they almast always have at least 10 puppys how much dogs do you need to have 10 pups available yorkies usually have say three or four so two bitches times 12 months equal 24 bitches (puppy mill)


jacky 11-01-2006 05:18 PM

Its not about stopping puppymills for me, i just like to see my dog's parents and know how the dog is going to end up. ive seen alot of people buy yorkies from petshops and the dog ends up being HUGE or worse, unhealthy. and we all know the guarentees are crap pretty much 99% of the time. and the "papers" are usually just picked at random from a big pile


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