Question about Puppy Mills
 

This will be long but I really want to figure out something we can do about the puppy mills. So much so that I took a little trip to visit one:

Clearwater Puppies in Ronks, PA. Our experience there was about as you would expect. There is a sign out on the main road that lists about a dozen breeds of puppies. We pull up into the driveway where several Amish are in the yard, they tell us that the puppies are not there but give us directions to their neighbors house.

We go to the second Amish farm and a young Amish girl comes out. I ask her about the puppies & she wants to know what kind I want. I ask what she has and she starts a whole list. I ask to see them & she says she has to bring them out. She says that she will just bring out a few and heads off to a barn at the back. That barn is huge but I don't see any dogs other than a small poodle she has at the house and a huge German Shepherd dog that seems to be guarding the back. After a while, I do hear barking but still haven't seen any other dogs until she comes back with 3 puppies, a Bichon, a Yorkie & King Charles Spaniel. The puppies appear to be healthy & happy, well fed but I have no idea what kind of conditions they came from.

I did ask a few questions but learned very little. I do know that they had at least multiple breeding pairs of several different breeds. Prices ranging from about $400 to $1000.

After returning & doing internet research, I find Clearwater Puppies listed on this site, news reports & such as having many violations. I don't know what can be done about it. I was particularly struck by the remark of one of the Amish in an interview when he stated something to the effect that the people that purchase their dogs treat them like humans & let them sleep in their beds but that they treat their animals as animals.

Is there a way that we can provide evidence that raising dogs should not be just like raising cows or sheep? In our minds, there is an emotional factor involved. Even giving them the benefit of a doubt that the animals are provided clean water, food & ample shelter, we believe that they need human interaction. Is that true? or is that just what I believe because my little pup is treated like a child? Is a dog happy just in clean conditions with ample food & water like a cow or sheep?

I realize that this is a very complex question but we need to ask it and find some way of fixing the problem. Can I just get a little brainstorming? Not trying to throw stones or start arguments, just want to do something about the suffering of dogs?
:aimeeyork

Well, to the Amish, raising dogs is nothing more than a cash crop.

We don't go to them looking to buy cows or sheeps as house pets, therefore, I don't see how you can make any comparison.

When people go to buy a puppy, they believe they are getting one that will interact well with their families. The problem is that these puppies are raised with little or no human contact. Therefore, when people buy them and take them home, they sometimes find either a very timid puppy or a very aggressive puppy.

There are horror stories about the conditions in which these doggies are kept. Constantly caged, no vet care, and I shudder to think about the lack of forethought given to which two puppies are thrown together and how often they are bred. Genetic nightmares that you see so often today are the result of these kinds of breeding environments.

I live in West Lawn, PA about an hr east of Lancaster which is puppy mill central. My wife sees the results of puppy mills every day at the vet hospital. Its terrible. As a breeder, it makes me sick to think of what the poor animals endure.

People have the misconception that the Amish are "special". That buying from them means they get a better "product" because the Amish do things the "old fashioned" way. Well that is simply not true. Maybe (and maybe not) the quilt you buy from an Amish lady is better made than a store bought quilt but thats different....its not a living thing. The Amish believe breeding puppies is the responsiblity of children. Its not an adult job. How many 10 year olds do you know that is responsible enough to care for him/herself let alone puppies? Not many.

To the Amish its a cash crop nothing more. They are raised in horrible conditions. There was actually a newspaper article in my local paper last week about the Governor cracking down on puppy mills. He supposedly owns two labs rescued from a puppy mill.

I don't know how effective it will be.....but one can hope.

But
 

What can we do?? Is there some study or something that we can use to convince the government that dogs are not cows or goats or sheep & should not be raised in a farm atmosphere.

In reading an old thread on here about the Amish said something like, These dogs have never lived in anything other than a kennel environment, so it is not a hardship or cruel to them. That is all they know.

I know we all have horror stories & I don't think anyone doubts that something needs to be done, But how & what?

Suggestions for a solution, please.

I've read this thread 4 times now. I wish I had an easy answer - or even a short term fix but I don't. Education is very powerful and reaching out to the general populous and educating them on the real truths about puppy mills is a step in the right direction. Sweeping changes can't happen without the proper legislation.

I don't think that we can seriously affect the puppy mills as individuals. Even if every YTer vowed never to purchase another puppy that they could not assure themselves had not come from unfavorable conditions, there will be 2 others to take each of our places.

I believe it has to come from state & federal legislation. So, that being said, how do we affect our state & federal representatives? Do we join with Humane Societies, etc or just individually write to them?

I also think we need facts to back up our arguments & not just emotionalism.
Some already think we are fanatics. We need something that convinces legislators that dogs are not cattle & cannot be raised/or sold as such.

Is there a report somewhere by an animal behaviorist that cites that dogs that are otherwise well cared for are still harmed by lack of human contact? Is it more cruel to have a dog confined to a cage than it is for a horse or cow to be kept in a stall. Are there laws that say a horse or cow has to have a certain amount of room per animal?

I personally find it inhumane to have a dog/puppy confined to a cage inside a barn for its entire life but how can I prove that as a fact?

Is there a good animal rights organization that is making strides in this area that we need to throw our support, both physically and financially, behind.

If I dwell on this situation without trying to do something about it, it would drive me nuts. However, if I just ignore it so it doesn't upset me, then I become part of the problem.

:aimeeyork

Well first we have to start with the USDA. Their requirements state that the dogs should be kept in A separate building and in cages and so on. Who are they trying to protect the dogs or the people. If I want to keep my breeding dogs in my house that should be my business. It might be a concern for the Health Department, but certainly not the USDA.

So according to the USDA, if you keep your dogs in your house, you are in violation, :thumbdown but if you keep them in a separate building in cages, you get a :thumbup:

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

This is the whole problem. The general belief is that as long as they are kept clean and fed and provided health care that it is not harmful to them.

Dogs are social animals, not like cattle. Actually I feel sorry for any animal that is not allowed out in the fresh air and sunshine daily.

Maybe we can apply to the government for a grant to study this. That is how other people prove or disprove a theory. They get government grants.

We need some veterinary students, or animal behavior science majors to study this.

Have you been here?

http://www.millbusters.com/

Suggestions to Stop Puppymills
 

I will check the above website next but I did find this article:
What You Can Do

No one has more power to fight puppy mills than the consumer. In each individual's hands is the ability to stop the cycle of abuse that ends with the purchase of a puppy mill puppy at a pet store.

Don't Buy A Dog From A Pet Store.
It's that simple. Most puppies sold in pet stores come from puppy mills. Because it is virtually impossible to determine the quality of the breeding facility listed on the puppy's papers, the more humane option is simply not to buy the dog at all. Although the consumer may be assured that American Kennel Club (AKC) papers guarantee a quality dog, in reality, nothing is further from the truth. After years of artfully dodging the question of how AKC papers could be registered to dogs and puppies found in the worst of puppy mills, the AKC itself is admitting the misconceptions that are connected with purebred papers.

Opt To Adopt Instead.
When you're ready to bring a dog into your life, visit your local animal shelter. Millions of homeless dogs are waiting at animal shelters for life-long, responsible homes. You won't be supporting the puppy mill industry, and at the same time, you'll be fighting the tragic pet overpopulation problem. If you are interested in a particular breed, your animal shelter can help you locate a breed specific adoption group that will match you with the type of dog you want.
In addition, some humane societies and animal shelters are working in cooperation with pet supply stores in adopting out shelter animals. Check with your local shelter to find out who they may be working with in your area.

Why Adoption?
Unlike buying, adoption usually focuses on matching the adopter's lifestyle and habits with the animal's needs and characteristics. When an animal is sold, profit comes first. Most pet stores will sell an animal to almost anyone. A young puppy may be sold to someone who may not have the time to take care of her. The profit motive only puts the animal's interests in jeopardy.
Make Your Voice Heard.
Outrage at the conditions found in many puppy mills has brought increased awareness to the issue. Legislators listen to calls and letters from constituents, and plan their priorities accordingly. Contacting your state and federal representatives does makes a difference. On the personal level, resolve to inform friends, neighbors, and family about the puppy mill issue. Many people who care deeply about animals are not always aware of the connection between the pet store puppy and the breeding female trapped for life in a mill.
There is light at the end of the tunnel for dogs housed and bred in puppy mills. Collectively, we can fight an industry that views dogs as mere profit machines. Dogs, our best friends and companions, deserve our best effort. After all the licks, wags, and love they have given us, we owe them this fight. Their lives depend on it.


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Rachel A. Lamb is Director for Companion Animal Care at The Humane Society of the United States (HSUS) in Washington, DC.

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breeder
 

Cows, sheep, as most livestock (food based) can live perfectly well with no human contact IMO..if you had an automatic system that fed, cleaned out barns, detect any visible infections, health problems etc, turned them out to pasture and gathered them at night, I would dare say you would have normal cows or sheep..no insane lunies. Even horses do perfectly well living free...note, Assateague Island ponies...I do think livestock need other livestock to live among, I doubt even a cow would be happy living alone in a barn, with no humans or other animals.

If you "farm" domestic animals as livestock, in short time you have mentally unsound animals, with pack mentality. They, in turn produce mentally unsound animals...dogs need human contact, they can not live confined in cages like birds..when they receive little contact, they do not always make good pets, bonding toward humans is so hard...a cow does not need to learn to interact with humans from the first few weeks... not many live in our homes, become our companions and play with our children...I have meet a number of Amish breeders in Maryland, I have NO respect for any of them.

another site people could check out to help/educate/stop puppymills is
www.nopuppymills.com
they were my primary source of education after i brought snickers home
and they do all kinds of petshop puppy reports

This is where I have started once I brought Charlie home last week and realized that he started his short 9 months as a product of a puppymill in MO before being sold EXACTLY at 8 weeks of age in New York.

QUOTE -- "I was particularly struck by the remark of one of the Amish in an interview when he stated something to the effect that the people that purchase their dogs treat them like humans & let them sleep in their beds but that they treat their animals as animals."

Dogs are animals. They are not "humans." So - treating a dog like an animal, in itself, isn't such a bad thing.

Remember that people can treat animals very well or very poorly.

I suspect that any situation like the one you visited isn't treating the dogs that they are using for breeding very well. I agree with you that dogs need freedom to run and play and interact with people. Being kept in a barn only to breed is abusive as far as I am concerned.

My father grew up with working dogs on their farm. They were certainly treated like dogs (animals) -- but nonetheless, they were loved and well cared for by his family. Those dogs were my father's best friends and playmates when he was growing up (when they weren't working).... and they loved to work. They helped manage the sheep and other livestock and were guard dogs as well.

The Amish do feel this way about dogs and other animals as well - it is part of their culture. But, that being said -- there is never any excuse for abusing any animal. And - I'm sure that not all of them are guilty of this.

***** For the life of me --- I will never understand why someone can't just walk in a close these places down -- like "yesterday!"

Carol Jean

did you get a petshop puppy report on him? mine was the so eye-opening/upsetting/made me irate type
now i know what i wish i knew a long time ago
but the site is great for education, ideas on preventing puppymills, and petshop puppy reports

Are "we" the problem?
 

I guess I wonder the same thing but what I'm learning is that we can legislate humane conditions to the degree of food, water & shelter but we still don't have enough inspectors to enforce this & apparently (from some articles), the USDA is not without some degree of corruption itself.

Also, it seems that there aren't laws governing socialization, that dogs can be raised legally as cows, horses, sheep, etc. I think one of the things we need is some legislation that differentiates between pets & livestock.

Is a dog that is raised in a kennel unhappy if all his physical needs are provided? Do they crave human companionship or does that only come with association with humans? I don't know of anything that speaks to that issue.

Or on the contrary, if the parents are not unhappy with kennel life, does that mean that the puppies will not desire human contact and become more "wild"?
Would this in turn lead to less domesticated animals and poorer pets?

And then, something else has been preying on my mind. Are we the problem?? If we weren't so interested in paying $1500 or more dollars for a cute little Yorkie pup, would the puppy mills be in business. If all we did was rescue or at least not pay as much as we (myself definitely included) do, would it just no longer be so tempting? I read one article where the Amish farmer was making in the six figures with his puppy mill. Actually, he wasn't even doing it, the women were.

I will not buy anything from a pet store that sells puppies, I will not buy a puppy mill product or in any way benefit them to my knowledge. And I'm sure many of you will do the same. But we've got to do more, politically & morally & we need to rescue, & we need to spay & neuter all our pets.

On a side note, the other cash crop that I saw at the first Amish farm was tobacco.

Yes - surprisingly there was little on the report for the breeder. Last reported inspection was 2001!!!! Made me cranky!

[quote=doortego]I will not buy anything from a pet store that sells puppies, I will not buy a puppy mill product or in any way benefit them to my knowledge. And I'm sure many of you will do the same. But we've got to do more, politically & morally & we need to rescue, & we need to spay & neuter all our pets.

quote]

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

pups
 

Dogs can certainly be working animals...farm dogs, sled, mushers, Seeing eye, dozen of types etc..goodness sakes my husband had working dogs on the farm, but they were not a Non-working or toy breed.
I have seen too many filithy barns full of miserable dogs...I do not respect any of them I have meet..none of these dogs are pets..they are profit machines...infact they do not allow dogs in the house..will someone please tell me how a breeder with no electricity can maintain a long coated breed?

I don't believe that keeping the parents in a kennel contributes to a puppies lack of socialization. It the fact that the breeder does not take the time to interact with the puppy at an early age. He has very little human contact, except to have his dew claws removed and tail docked, and from that he probably doesn't develope a very loving attitude towards humans. Then at 8 weeks hold he is separated from his mother and litter mates and handed to a human. What a frightening experience.

Also I do not understand why dog breeders are regulated by he USDA. If we could get the government to view domestic animals as having different needs than farm animals things would probably change.

IMO the regulations that the USDA sets for commercial breeders not only do not discourage puppy mills, they promote them. If you don't run your business like a puppy mill you are in violation of the code, and risk losing your license.

No breeder starts out with the idea that they are going to get a bunch of dogs and keep them in filthy cages and with no concern for their health. After all it is just not good business to not take care of your breeding stock. Even slave owners knew that.

But because they are kept in a seprate building and you have more than you can care for, the conditions gradually deteriorate, and before you know it you have a puppy mill.

If regulations stated hat you MUST keep them in your home, you would soon know when you had too many to care for, and they would be kept clean because you wouldn't want to have them in your house if they were filthy. Well with the exception of a few loonies out there.

The only way to regulate the puppy mills is to regulate anyone who breeds animals, which means mandatory spay/neuter so therefore eliminating any "accidents", license to breed and strict standards like there are in factories.


Puppy mills exist because there are no strict regulations and no one to enforce them. The USDA are more concerned about protecting livestock because millions of people can get sick and die than they are about dogs.

Have you checked this site?

http://www.stoppuppymills.org/

I really hate to say this but i don't think we will ever be able to stop puppy mills. First off there are not a lot of people who really know what a puppy mill is they buy from pet stores or order online before asking any questions i was one of them i never knew about puppy mills till i joined yt hard to believe it but it's true. Secomd the demand for dogs is so great that they will be in business forever. Even if you report a mill in terrible conditions they animal control will drive out there tell them they are in violation and give them so much time to get it fixed well the millers will clean up to the standards which isn't very high (clean food and water and clean cages) and then they are free to go back to the way they were as long as they have their own housing i.e. a barn a shed a chicken coupe whatever and clean food and water people don't care. Yes i think it is horrible that they treat these animals like this but what do we do? I posted a thread about a petshop with these poor very sick puppies i reported them and nothing happened here is the thread
http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47084
these puppies were in horrable conditions and when i called back to see why nothing had been done i got a voice mail i left a very detailed message and he never returned my call i called 4 times and nothing. I think these millers pay off people so they stay off their backs and as long as the money is flowing to someone more powerful it will never stop. also a lot of the mills are in little towns where this kind of thing isn't frowned upon. I really hope one day it will be stopped but like one person said as long as we are willing to shell out $1500.00 for a pet they will keep producing them and for everyone of us that refuses to buy from a petstore or a mill there are 2 more people who will the best way to stop all of this is education about it more media coverage where more people can see it first hand so if you see or know of a mill call your local news and tell them about it get it in the news and educate people.