Breeding without showing?
 

I hope I can form a structured opinion here:

Breeding dogs is a hobby to me. Not a hobby I am into, but a hobby nonetheless. I would never breed Stewie, even if he were "perfect" or close to it. If he were a perfect specimen of the breed and I had a great female to compliment him I might. I would be interested in getting into breeding in the future, but I could never see myself showing dogs. I enjoy watching them on TV or in person, but it's not really "my scene"

Not sure how this fits here but I wont buy a puppy that doesn't have Champion parents on both sides and the breeder needs to have a good reputation/success on the show circuit. Ok, I know it doesn't mean I'm getting a perfect pup but I think it helps.

Summer:

Wonderful idea for a thread. We can discuss this on this forum but I would hesitate to address it on others. I know that you and I don't agree, but her goes. Thanks for understanding that I mean no offense and this is JMO.

I agree with Stewie's mom. Showing dogs (any breed) in conformation is a hobby and has very little, IMO, to do with "improving the things about the breed" that I find the most important. I love the yorkie look, but I love chocolate and piebald as much as the traditional black and tan for instance. I love an undocked tail and disapprove of cosmetic surgery on dogs.

I disapprove of the practice of judging any living being primarily on the basis of outward appearance. I love obedience and agility shows because I feel there is great everyday value in the safety and enjoyability (is that a word) of an animal who is "trained" and has a bond with the one who trained him/her. Conformation show dogs look bored and have to sit still and not play for fear of messing up their coats, etc. This is not what dogs are for IMO.

I disapprove of the practice of "culling" perfectly healthy puppies because they don't meet the "breed standard" as written by the AKC and the YTCA. Those entities really do nothing to protect dogs from inhumane treatment and exist solely to serve the whims of those who care about conformation showing. They are not the "law" as some people think when it comes to dogs.

I appreciate the reputable breeders who care about temperament and eliminating hereditary health issues but I have found that most casual, non-show breeders also feel this way and even more so in some instances because they do not care about the perfect "structure".

The majority of people want a companion pet in thier yorkie and they want a small dog they can travel with and love unconditionally. This is why I think the smaller yorkies are so popular right now. I don't believe it is an accessory or a status symbol for most people who want them. I believe that those people truly love dogs and their lifestyles are just more condusive to having a small dog that can be with them all the time than a large dogs with travel limitations. Maybe I am naive but I don't think so. Our own membership seems to prove this.

I could speak on this subject for a long time, but I am going to a barbeque so I have to go, but I will read what everyone else says and add more later.

I know many people claim they will not buy from a backyard breeder, but the fact is a lot of us probably have. I was looking at another post where people were comparing pricing. 500 at most for a pet, and 2000 for a show dog etc. I am sorry but most show greeders do not sell pups for 500, heck I cant even find a dog without papers for that price in my area. In fact around my average price for a PET yorkie is 800-1000. My Bridget I got lucky on, the breeder had a good reputation, had not shown but was considering it. She had champiions on both sides and the breeder did have pups that went into a show ring. I paid 1500.00 for a possible show dog.
Now I am looking to show, and I will not breed just for the heck of it, I will breed only if my yorkies are of good quality and my mentor agrees with me.
However I am not going to knock anyone for buying a dog from someone that doesnt show. Sorry but if you want to pay 500 for a dog, it is most likely going to be from a backyard breeder. That is just a fact. Do i agree with in, no, but it happens and putting out there how you would never buy a dog from these places can hurt peoples feeling on these boards.


People can say a lot of things, esp in this type of forum, truths, half truths, we never really know. I just dont want to hurt anyones feeling. There will always be BYB,, becasue there is a demand for this breed, unfortunate yes, but a fact none the less.

Marlee - I totally agree with you about pricing, but I'd just like to add that Stewie was about $500. He is AKC w/ Ch on both sides, BUT... he has a white diamond on his chest and a LOT of white on his paws. His ears were floppy (later found out it was because he had an ear infection, but that's another story in itself) -- so I got a discount. His brothers/sisters were 800 - 1200. He is within the size standard (5.25-5.5lbs at 6mos) and I think that is a huge concern to most buyers.



Response: are there BYBs here?
I think so. There's people who consider breeding and don't do any research besides asking a few questions on here.

Honestly yes i bet there probably are BYB's here, or more than that people who have bought from them. I am not saying that stating you wont support them is nessisarly a bad thing, but it could hurt an owners feelings making them think they did something wrong by buying such a dog. Or that the have a less than quality yorkie, which may or may not be the case. I just hope that people read this and realize that there are other ways, but for some esp when it comes to finaces it is easier to come up with 500 versus 1000.

I just dont want people to think badly about their dogs, I am greatfull at least the most of these Yorkies are finding good homes.

I also think the importian point to make is we need to educate people about the hazards of buying from a breeder that is not of good quality. BYB will always be around, they supply many of the yorkie lovers out there with pets, heck, I bet that is where sites like Diva pup .com and other brokers get their animals from. I also think with the right education we can turn a BYB in to a good quality breeder, if they have the desire to do so. If it is about money, there is no talking to them. I actully met a lady here that breed her dog to pay off her credit card debt! How awful!

I am considering breeding many years down the road. For now, two kids and two dogs is enough and I'll want to have had experience in showing as well as a good mentor before I even think of beginning to breed.

For now, I am enjoying learning about Yorkies, their health and temperment, and of course being owned by them. I feel that having them as my pets and companions ONLY for awhile will help me make the best decision when it comes that time to figure out if breeding is something I would like to do.

But in answer to your question, no I personally would not breed without showing.

Everyone seems to be throwing around the back yard breeder term pretty freely. What exactly is considered to be a back yard breeder. I my self have bred my yorkie. Is she a show dog? No. I bred her to a male that was a compatible sample, he has champion lines. Neither are show dogs, but both have some beautiful features.
I use to work in a vet clinic in Dallas Tx, and we had many Show Breeders come in. Some of their dogs were beautiful, but a lot were not that healthy. THeir immunities were lower, and they tended to be more frail. I am not saying all show dogs are that way. Just from what I have seen in person.
Lets not forget that not every dog born in a litter of show champions is going to come out show quality. It is in their genes to be either, regardless of how much you try to breed out the bad. So why couldn't two dogs that are beautiful and have excellent stature be bred. AS long as the breeder looked into the genes to rule out any abnormalities, and they were not breeding with in the same gene pool.
THere are many nonshow breeders that love and care for their pups and they breed their dogs to good quality dogs. Yes there are bad too. There are also bad show Breeders out there. Unless we are there 24 seven we can never gaurantee that things are done properly. All we have to go on is research and instinct where both types of breeders are concerned.
A big part of having a show dog is the way they look. Looks are hereditary but not always does a non show quality dog mean that it is not a quality dog.
I don't think people put enough time into researching before breeding, but we have to remember that even if you research everything possible you can't control everything.
I hope I did not offend, I am just tired and might not have written clearly enough. Great debate though.

I would agree that the person on the left side of the chart (reputable breeder) is a good breeder, but he/she has also probably been doing it for more than five years (estimation). Almost everyone who first starts out breeding is some form of a BYB if they are not fully educated. Only after hands-on experience, maybe a couple screw ups and lots of books and a good mentor do people become the person on the left of the chart.

I never thought my life would come down to being 21 years old, home alone on a Friday night with a Yorkie wearing a green t-shirt sleeping on me discussing breeding and showing. LMAO.

:lol tears

Thanks for the site. I would say that would suit the term. I am not a BYB, but bieng new to breeding I have yet to meet the other side of the list. My pup is not show quality. Does that mean she wont produce show quality ? No. I am glad to see though that I trully have done all of the things needed to secure a healthy litter. I hope to one day be a breeder that everyone loves and can't get enough of. Are my pups presold. NO. Do I have people that are interested. Yes. I will wait until they are past 2 weeks of age, until then they are way to fragile. Even after then there are no gaurantees. I would hate to get a family excited about getting a new pup and then something happen. Mommies have been known to sit on thier young, or any other uncontrollable thing. Even pups from great lines don't make it.
I would like to have a pup that I can show. But until then I am enjoying my pup, and hers :)

I find this a very interesting topic.

I dont show but I do attend when events are in Oregon or Washinton areas. I am considering showing one of my new girls but we are still unsure of her potential she is only 5 months another month we should know for sure. Yet I am still very apprehensive because of the politics, I dont have the desire nor the time to kiss cheeks or (what ever else) to show a dog!

Because I don't show doesnt mean I am an incompetent breeder nor does it mean I produce any less pup than a show/breeder does. I breed well within the standard and I dont need to show a pup so prove it.

As long as a breeder makes every attempt to breed for conformation, color, health, size and temperment, they are doing the best they can within their breeding program.

JMHO

Amen Kimberly

Kim - I love your new page!

Summer, I truly do not want to offend you. However since you started this thread, I guess I want to know why you bought from a person that doesn't show dogs? YOu sound very serious on not supporting back yard breeders. So would you consider your breeder to be a back yard breeder? I don't think I understand what a back yard breeder is to you. Aren't there so many people in between these two descriptions in that article? What would you call them? Why can't somebody be a responsible caring breeder and not show?
Even though you did not buy your dog from a person that shows, I bet your little guy turns out to be atleast very close to show quality. So I do think that beautiful puppies can be produced from people who don't show.

I myself plan to breed maltese someday. I probably will not show. I go to many shows, but I don't think I could handle it. And quite frankly I have spoken to many showing breeders, they want $3000 for their dogs, no less! Also I have not talked to ONE that doesn't rub me the wrong way. They sell any dog that doesn't meet their standards, any dog that has a c section, any dog that didn't get big enough and males that they rotate around, it sounds very business like to me. I understand why they do this, who could keep every dog that wasn't perfect plus their show quality breeders. I just think it's a little heartless to sell a dog after they are 1 or 2 years old, that loves you, just because they didn't turn out perfectly. I want someone to raise their dogs underfoot as their loving pets. I think a lot of us HAVE to support backyard breeders anyway. Not many of us can afford $3000. I have had a good experience each time with a backyard breeder. That is, if you consider a backyard breeder to be someone who does not show.

I talked to one breeder who sells her dogs for $3000, her dogs are TOP quality. Although I think her dogs are expensive, she never has to advertise and has a waiting list a mile long. She does not show. AND she will not sell her puppies to a home that would like to show the puppy. She believes that all dogs should be allowed to be a member of the family, run around in the grass without worrying about damaging the beautiful hair, not have to be kenneled and go through relentless hours of hair care. I tend to lean more towards her way of thinking.

Now I seriously didn't want to offend people that shows and breeds. I just have not talked to anyone in my area that I was real impressed with. Seriously I know there are many loving breeders who show.

I think buying from a breeder who does not show totally ok. I had been looking for about eight months before finding my puppy. being a mom of 4 I really dont want to spend 3000.00 for any dog if I dont have to. I did spend that amount on my shepherd though but not for the reasons you would think. I chose him(actually he chose his :D ) for his temperment and yes his lines but the main reason was how he attached himself to my children from day one. I love dogs and I think if a person who cares deeply for thier dos and just loves being able to share the love of that particular breed with others it is entirely okay.

Of course they have to make money but really for those of us who have purchased yorkies under the 1000.00 range do you really think the breeders truly make that much at prices that low. I dont think so, I have seen first hand how much goes into breeding (with bigger dogs) and money wise sometimes you pretty much break even. I would love to consider breeding in the far future but only so other people could enjoy this wonderful breed as well. So I think sometimes these smaller breeders are only doing what they love & not all are byb. I just feel if you look for the bad all the time you truly miss all the good out there to. Yes byb are everywhere but every breeder had to start somewhere right?
sue

okay I just wanted to explain that last sentence before it is taken the wrong way :) . What I meant was that most breeders have to start at the bottom and work thier way up. It takes a lot of research,time,money,heartache,patience,and most of all total commitment.

So to all of you here who are breeders be it show breeders or hobby breeders my hats go off to you because I think it takes a lot to do what you do.

sue :animal-sm

I got Sebastian from a byb and she has been breeding for over 20 years, before we purchased him we checked her references & called her two vets. She is one the most caring women I have ever met. She calls me at least once a week to check on him and has even offered to babysit him if it was ever needed. I am glad that she does what she does or I wouldn't have my precious baby today.

I guess they are out there, but I have done a lot of research, and talked to a lot of breeders, and I just don't think I have ever talked to anyone from the column describing a backyard breeder in that article. I think those are both "extremes" and that most breeders fall somewhere in between. ALL of the breeders I have spoken to care deeeply for their "babies" and for all dogs in general. None of them would knowingly or intentionally do anything wrong.

Some show breeders I find a little cold and callous actually. They are sometimes rude and arrogant and don't have "time" to devote to a "newbie" who just wants a pet. I have heard this complaint over and over from people frsutrating by those telling them they shoudl buy from a show breeder and then not being able to find a show breeder who would give them the time of day.

This is just my own experience that I am siting and maybe i have just been lucky but I try very hard not to judge people too harshly.

I had a very similar experience this last weekend with some showers. I went to a show here in town. We waited all day for the yorkies to show and they were an hour late behind schedule as well. So the normal thing you want to do while waiting is talk to the exhibitors. Well they were a rude and obnoxious bunch of ladies. I can understand if they were busy, but like I said the show was running behind and the dog's were already primped up. I have not ever had a good experience talking to exhibitors.