yorkies have been breed down in size for fashion not health or for a better breed, breed standard does not mean the yorkie will be good enough for show. look at all the breeds of dogs that now have breathing problems due to having such flat faces cos thats breed standard:mad: all you have to do is look on here at all the sick yorkies with so many more problems, the breed never had so many problems and maybe the size of the breed has something to do with it ie breeding the so called runts together to get smaller pups, these were called runts has they hadnt done very well in the mum then not been as healthy as the other pups ie with feeding and putting on weight normaly, if someone came on here saying they were gonna breed there sick yorkie everyone would go mad at them.

also breed standard says the yorkie should have a certain type of coat colour and shape so i bet most peoples yorkies on here would not pass the breed standard to a judges eye. imo there should be 2 sizes for the breed standard 4 pound up to 10 pound and then 11 up to 17 pound and that would be the breed standard that would be for the betterment of the breed.:aimeeyork

And it DOESN'T.
It doesn't matter if you're talking yorkies or persian cats or clydesdale horses, or hairless guinea pigs....at some point "desired traits" were set, and were bred for, for WHATEVER reasons, until a breed standard was established. That's what makes the breed the BREED.

I know that it is difficult, since everyone loves their pet and is PROUD of them, but we all have to realize the fact that saying that your yorkie isn't a good example of the BREED (b/c it's too big, or what have you) is not the same as saying that your dog is an inferior PET.

A non-standard dog definitely doesn't deserve to get that "snob snub" from the stranger in the park or Petco, and let's face it, people who do that just must be jerks in ALL facets of their lives. However, that doesn't mean that they should be continued to be willfully bred, producing ever greater and greater dilution of the (registered) breed.

all the sites ive seen says there is no lower weight limit but small ones should not be breed with. also yes there should be a breed standard but it should be whats best health wise for the dog and looks were at the moment its just on looks and who cares about the health of the dog thats my point. ive had breed standard and ive had large yorkies so i do know about both, my scampi in his younger days was about 7 pound perfect coat and had 5 or 6 cruff champs in his pedigre but why should he be allowed in the show ring but a dog who is perfect in everyway apart from there 3 pound heavyer isnt allowed. poodles have 2 sizes as do other breeds, breed standard changed due to fashion and should now be changed again.

here is a bigger size one
 

This is my sister in laws yorkie, the bigger blonde one and Kizzy when I first got her. well my sister in laws is 10 years old and weighs 8'2lbs and she is what made me so determined to get a yorkie. she looked just like Kizzy when she was Kizzys age. talk about changing. But I did hope Kizzy would get no more than 5 lbs but I think the other yorkie is beautiful and if kizzy turns out to be 8 lbs and looks near this pretty, I just wont care at all. Some of the bigger ones are so beautiful to me.

There is always the option of small claims court but I feel if she were an ethical breeder, she would refund your money willingly and if she doesn't have it right now, she out to sign some sort of paper promising to pay you and let you keep Ralphie.

off topic
 

I don't mean to offend you but yourposts have taken this thread totally off topic. It is not about breed standard. It is about someone being told they were getting one kind dog and ended up with another that looks almost like a mix.

FYI -- I have a yorkie that is 3 lbs. who is perfectly healthy. I know many many others on here do, too. My parents also have a yorkie who is 12 lbs who is not perfectly healthy. So, I don't think we can make a generalization based on weight.

I agree that this thread has gotten WAY off topic. Maybe we should hear from the originator of the thread to see if her issues have been resolved. If they have, then we can all quit arguing and just agree to disagree.

Jmo
 

Sashajade...Yes, I agree, the Yorkie was much larger until around 1930, we are 76 yrs away from those times and the standard has been revised AND BY the same people who developed the breed in the first place.

What is important is the standard....a breeder either adheres to or gives every effort to adhere to the standard or stops calling their dogs Yorkies.
If they change the standard to include larger Yorkies, then I have the option to breed larger..at this point I do not have this option IF I want to be a reputable, honest breeder.

Yorkies are companion dogs, spending 24 hrs with their owners..many people want one they can travel with, handle with little effort. Not all are able to groom a 15 pounder...infact as I started downsizing my grooming business..(I had to because of arthitis in my fingers) I stopped grooming anything over 10 pounds...and it is not easy to carry a 10 pounder when traveling.

If we do not like the rules, change them, but we can not toss them out because we do not like or agree with them....the workers in the mills and mines in Manchester, Leeds.etc needed a large Yorkie to kill vermin...I have never in all my years had a potential pet buyer want a Yorkie for rat control..
BUT if the day comes we are run over by rats and mice again, perhaps they will see a need to revise the standard.

What this post boils down to is this...the breeder said the pup would be what it is not..the buyer paid for one thing and got another...if I ask the baker for an elcair and I get home finding an APPLE in the bag..I am not going to accept the bakers explaination that the apple is better for me then the elcair..I want what I asked and paid for..once again, common sense dog breeding 101.

Off topic poodles come in 3 different sizes, standard, minature, toy.
I don't know the terms of the sale that went on but here is my two cents. If the buyer was looking for a standard yorkie with plans on breeding him and they told the seller this and the seller told them that he would be standard size and great for breeding,
then if the dog does not turn out to be what they agreed on, standard size, then they should be refunded atleast a partial amount because they can't breed him like they had planned.

Now, if the buyer never mentioned wanting to breed him or did not have the intent of breeding him then the seller has every right not to refund them, the dog would have been sold as pet quality which is what you got rather than breeding quality

Not trying to offend anyone
but
If I looked at this dog and the parents and had plans on breeding him I would not have bought him for this purpose because looking at the pictures the parents even grandfarher are not standard to the breed. If I remember He is of pet quality as is his parents and I do believe even the person who breed them said that they were pet quality not breeding or show quality. Whether the seller told the buyer that, I do not know. I do know that if the pup was bought as pet quality that you got exactly what you paid for a nice pet yorkie.

This all is one big miscommunication between the buyer and the seller. The seller should be clear to the buyer what to expect from this puppy and what quality it should be. As well as the buyer should be clear to the seller exactly what they were looking for in the pup, size, color, whatever it may be and the motives the buyer has for the pup, show, pet, or breeding.

In my opinion, it sounds like both sides need to be better in communicating in what they want and what to expect. So it sounds like both of you are at fault for the way things turned out. One may be at more fault than the other but nonetheless it is what it is.:animal-pa :animal-pa

If this buyer came me and said they wanted a 4 to 5 pounder..I would ask how important is size? If the dog goes 2 pounds over, will you still be happy?...just about 100% say that is not a problem...but to expect 5 pounds and get 12 is not the same...I would expect my money return, IF these things were discussed before hand...all depends on what the breeder promised...and they should write it out so no one gets confused...and most certainly, if the buyer said they were thinking of breeding before hand, they deserve a refund..

It is so much easier to show people the parents, grandparents etc...tell them it will be a healthy, pet quality pup at the time of the sale. Have the vet weight from check up and calulate adult weight from there...but if size is the main issue, tell them to go elsewhere..

Here we go again.....
 

you didnt offend me im sorry if you think i was being off i was making a comment towards other people on this who said this dog shouldnt be breed with cos of its size. and like i said if the breeder said the dog would be breed standard then she should give some money back but if not then she shouldnt. the dog doesnt look like a mix imo it looks like a large yorkie.

im sorry if you think i was arguing i wasnt i was just giving my opinion, yes there are a lot of fit and healthy small yorkies and dont get me wrong i think small ones are cute and have had them my point was they were breed down in size cos thats what people wanted not for the good of the breed.

i agree and had already put that if the dog was sold as breed standard then some money should be given back. the people who gave the breed standard were not the people who developed the breed the people who first breed the yorkie were normal every day working men with familys not the kennel club, also as i said it was about fashion at the time which as with clothes changes over years, it wasnt set for the best health and looks of the dog it was just looks.

think i need to clear something up here, i love all yorkies tiny 1 pounders right up to big 20 pounders ive had one 20 pound and one 5 pound and loved them just the same. i have nothing against small yorkies or people who have them and when i get another yorkie when i move i have no idea what size it will be 2 pounds or 20 pounds i dont mind just aslong as its healthy, but if i did want a yorkie that was breed standard and paid for one then yes i would want some money back if it wasnt. pedigree is a lot more important here if it has champs you pay more. i think the little ones are cuter than most of the big ones but i dont think its fair when people say its not a yorkie cos its big or its a cross, i will do a post and i bet most people havent got a breed standard yorkie. i only have a problem with breed standard as its unfair and out of date, they dropped the larger size due to fashion at the time so as fashion changes so should the breed standard back to how it was, yorkies were breed down for fashion and how they looked not at one point did there health come in to play and what would be best for the breed, breed standard should be about how the dog should look to look its best but it should also be about its health too,thats my problem with it. i hope i have cleared it up now and im sorry if anyone thought i was angry im not see:D :D :D

I totally agree with you about not getting what you paid for. I paid 300 dollars more for Kizzy than I could of gotten the other puppy the breeder had because she said Kizzy would be TOOOOOOOOO little to breed. she showed me supposedly the mother and daddy of kizzy and now i dont believe it was the real parents. The other puppy looked just like kizzy for 300 less but it was maybe 1/2 lb heavier. But she said Kizzy was the runt but neither of them should get over 4 or 5 lbs. well Kizzy turned 4 months old Friday and weighed over 5.2 lbs at the vets office. Even tho the vet dont think she will get any taller she still isnt gonna be 5 lbs or under when she is already over 5 lbs @ 4 months. When I called the breeder after kizzys 12 week check up and she weighed 4 lbs already she acted like she was just sooooooooo surprised and just couldnt figure out what happened. I think she lied about those being Kizzys real parents even tho I have papers as that being her mother and dad if it was their real names she told me. But now that I found out she has a kennel (God knows where) somewhere on her property that you cant see, I sure think maybe she registered kizzy as their litter or else that wasnt the true parents. I feel like she should have to pay me some difference but of course she said her sister had one she would trade me for kizzy, well I dont want her sisters. In the first place ive payed for all kizzys vet bills and taught her lots of stuff plus i dont want to get rid of her cause i love her.

well thats fair enough,I hope you do recieve some money back.There are so many variations of the breed, so the key is research research research.:)

It was written out in emails exchanged between the two that were posted yesterday and no pictures of the grandsire were provided until yesterday. I know I would be P#$#$. I am the same way. I wanted small dogs and I paid big for them trusting the breeder. I got upset when it looked like Ceeby would be larger but he has settled in at 3.4 pounds and is soooooo fragile it worries me so now I am hoping he will fill out and gain another pound. Of course where they know they have gotcha is they know we fall in love with these puppies and will love them no matter what. But I want what I pay for. No more, no less.

I just saw a dead horse, some people were beating it! What's with that..?

A good breeder knows their line.........yes, to a point. There is always the possibility that one pup from any given litter could continue to grow. This is not something that breeders can predict. And just the opposite is true, a pup may stop growing at an early age and stay very small, all within the same litter. That doesn't make them any less of a yorkie, nor does it make the breeder out to be one who misrepresents. Just as with children, you DO NOT KNOW how big they are going to be as adults when they are young, even if you look at the grandparents. What is bothering me the most with some on this thread is the suggestion that a breeder needs to be psychic in predicting their yorkie pups adult size. I do a best guess estimate and make sure the buyer knows it's just that, a guess based on past litters. That doesn't mean I am going to be correct all the time. Our Reggie was 8.5 pounds, she came from 4 and 4.5 parents, and the same small size for grandparents. Her sisters grew to 4 and 5 pounds and her brother to 2.5 pounds. Based on all that information according to some here, there is no way Reggie could have grown that big or be from the same litter. I know for a fact exactly where she came from.

I've been following another thread for some time. Perhaps some of you might want to take a look at the over-sized teapots that without a doubt are pure yorkies.
http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34802

First of all I think your guy is a doll!
I do think you and the breeder need to come to a resolution. Anyoone I sell a puppy to I guarantee it to an extent, I have only taken back one puppy though and that was because the new owners were in their 60's and had never owned a dog in their lives. They did not realize how much work a puppy was and I ask that I be notified if they decide to rehome them. I even went so far as to take the dog back to get her crate trained for night ( she was still in the whining puppy stage and the lady could not sleep)
ANYWAY, I usually keep my puppies until I am pretty confident in what they are going to be like If you see enough of them you have a pretty general idea on whether they are following even a smidge close to the standard. If I have any that seem like they are verring off they are sold with a spay neuter contract or limited registration at a very reduced price or I contact the many hundreds of people who contact me "wanting a yorkie all their life but not able to pay the big big bucks" and give them a dog. I have not had many that have been large but I did do a breeding some years back to an outside male and he threw a puppy that had a roached back.I also had a puppy with a very long muzzle . They are both beautiful dogs and very very much loved by their owners but they also knew in advance in fact they both are pleasantly surprised and say they got just what they expected.
I could pick apart nearly every yorkie I see and find many things that do not fall within the breed standard, drop muzzle, roached back,oversize,wide set eyes, drop ears, tail too low, tail too high,wavy coat, curly coat and so on. Fact of the matter is, when I chose to breed my girls I made it a point to be very choosy on whom I chose. I especially did not choose any that had the same faults that in my eyes my females had . To the eye they look perfect but they had structural things that could have aggravated had I bred them to a dog that had the same things. I have been very lucky and I do mean lucky since sometimes what you see is not what you get. I studied very closely genetics and recessive/dominant factors.
I do not have perfect yorkies, I dont have perfect puppies and I am sure there are a few out there that got larger, stayed smaller, or had other faults that you cannot foresee. What I am trying to say is, just because you put 2 dogs together that are pure bred , oyu can still get one that is not exactly like either parent. BUT, when there is a known fault in either one I do think they should not be sold as one who follows the standard, I feel they should be sold to pet homes.
I so much wish it were as esy as taking 2 dogs and meeting up as this would have saved me years of research and an endless search.
Surely you and the breeder come to an understanding . I am sure it was not purposeful.
Can I ask how the others in the litter turned out?
If we are talking about breed standard I can see things that are just as much a derailment from the breed standard as the height issue but people dont seem to look at that when they see you ont he street, fiddle front runs int he line somewhere, curly wavy hair, as well as color.
It drives me crazy when someone wants to tell YOU what YOU have. I have owned 3 generation litters and still have one occasionally that threw me off. IT is no different than my 7 year old who has blonde hair,blue eyes, My husband has black hair dark brown eyes I have dark auburn hair and dark bronw eyes. It still has the neighbors speculating.
I am glad you did ask someone as if you would have bred him and sold them you may have been going through the same problems when your buyers.
The best thing I did before I bought or bred was HOMEWORK.
Bon

Good post! I also have a 3 lb Yorkie and she is in perfect health. In fact, my Maltese who is between 5-6 lbs has had a few health issues. So bigger size doesn't always mean better health.

This is EXACTLY how I feel. I didnt come on here to discuss my love for Ralphie because that is not what is in question... but I would love a pound puppy just as much.. I dont love him based on his looks. My point was that he was very expensive and grew up to be something different than he was suposed to be. I dont think any of you, would be happy about that happening to you or that you wouldnt care because you love your dogs, You woud still love them and be upset or feel an injustice.

Yes, this is true. Someone at my vet has a MIX that looks just like ralphie (and is same age) but has different coloring. My hairdresser has a yorkie malteese mix that looks more like a standard yorkie than Ralphie looks like. It is still my opinion that he has some other dog in his bloodline besides a yorkie.

Also just to clarify a few questions i see over and over on here:

- We never discussed my breeding ralphie before I got him. I again just (ASSumed that he would be a standard yorkie, look like his mom and like all the dogs i see on this website. and would not be a problem.
- I never saw any pictures of his grandfather until Tuesday. That picture is what worries me b/c that is where his traits came from. I now know that but never knew that beforehand.
- The size was discussed via email between myself and the breeder and she said he would not exceed 5lbs.
- I am not just upset because Ralphie is so big. I am also upset that he doesnt look much like a yorkie in terms of his fur and white spots.His hair will not grow out and is not straight. so the main 2 visual traits of yorkies is not existent in him. His 2 brothers however, DO look like yorkies.
- I believe my breeder (in an earlier post)said she thought it would be "ridiculous " to refund my money so small claims court would be our only option.
- I dont feel that this was a purposeful manipulation, just irresponsible breeding, and failure to take responsibilty for the end result

** And Again, please understand that this is not about not liking all yorkies or big yorkies or anything like that. This is only about the fact that I did not get what I paid for , or what i thought i was buying"

Your comments and participation in this has been very educational though, and i thank you for that. :)