ExACTly. The $$$ factor is why I feel sorry for yorkie buyers who end up with a larger-than-expected dog. NOT because your pet is inferior or less love-worthy....but because basically, you've been ripped off.

Obviously genetics are tricky things, and funky traits can pop up in ANY line--- but deliberately breeding from a line that you KNOW is way off standard, and selling them to people EXPECTING standard yorkies...that's irresponsible. And done all the time, unfortunately.

I know in your heart it must be hard to balance that feeling that, while you wouldn't take all the money in the world for him, he is NOT what you thought you were paying for. I guess if I were you, I'd just let go of the dream of breeding him, and continue to enjoy him as the wonderful and adorable pet that he is.

I think I would not breed this larger guy again unless you want to keep the pups for yourself or if your fam/friends want a pup...having been well aware that this guy produces or can produce a larger Yorkie. As for refunding money....I don't think so, unless the owners were totally not aware of what the parents looked like and were told they would be a certain size.( although size can never be fully guaranteed ). Also if you sold them for a lot of money too..if they were a reduced price etc..it may be different...I just wouldn't sell these larger ones on purpose again-which you didn't really mean to anyways. I think they are full yorkies though and very cute and many families like larger ones but they should be aware they are possibly getting a bigger one. My Lucy is bigger than the 4lbs that was told to me..she is twice that but I am fine with it, she is still small. She is a great size to me but if I was set on a really small one and were told this without all the other info, I would be bummed. I wouldn't really expect a refund but I wouldn't use/recommend the breeder again if she gave me false info. This seems like an isolated case so I would just get a smaller different stud for your breeding program.:p

That is sorta out of the picture - he is fixed now, the grandsire that is. I only bred him so I could get a baby. I don't do this for a living or anything.

i am the breeder, and no i didn't give false info - just for the record

But you're still breeding his son, right? So the genes are still right there. Isn't that Raphie's dad? (just trying to follow this!)

To answer your question, I was told over email "THERE ARE THREE THE ONE WITH THE WHITE SPOT ON HIS BACK IS ALREADY TAKEN. THE TWO FOR SALE WEIGHED 2 OZ AT BIRTH. THEY WILL PROBABLY GET NO BIGGER THAN 4 LBS. THEIR MAMA IS 5 LBS. THEIR DADDY IS 4 LBS. BOTH ADORABLE GREAT FIGURES AND COLOR. I WILL ALSO ATTACH A PIC OF THE MOMMY.. OK "

I also never saw a picture of the grandfather until today when this all started being discussed, or I would have been weary, and probably would have backed out.

So yes i was expecting a much smaller dog. It is my opinion that a breeding standard exist for a reason, same as papers etc which is to identify a breed. Dogs who are not within that standard to me are not really in that breed. When reading the standards online, i dont feel that Ralphie has really met any of those, except coloring. I just dont think there is any point in getting a yorkie that doesnt look like a yorkie. I will not be breeding him anymore, after hearing what everone says and knowing that his puppies could turn out like him which is not what a yorkie buyer is seeking. and yes i also agree with everyone that he is SO CUTE. ha i just love him, but i am truly disappointed in how big he is getting.

I will say that I did a great deal of reading before I got Ralphie and i was terrified of getting an unhealthy yorkie. I know that is a reoccuring problem and ralphie has been the picture of health since day one, and for that I am grateful.

I didn't mean to not tell you about the grandsire, I sent the pics with the other emails to the other pot. buyers.

I am truely sorry - It was an overlook. I dont' do this for a living so I am not a "breeder" so to speak ya know with oodles and oodles of Dogs - I just bred abbie for a friend who lost hers by a bigger dog eating it. I did it out of the goodness of my heart, and sold Ralphie. I again am truely sorry -

I do understand that no one can tell you what size they are going to be but if the buyer was told that this dog would be small and suitable for breeding, then yes, you should give her money back because he is not suitable at all for breeding. Maybe nothing was said to this buyer about the dog being small or suitable to breed, I really don't know and i don't mean to offend you at all. I'm sorry if you were offended. I just kep reading about breeding this dog in this thread and he clearly is not suitable for breeding. At least to someone that wants to try to breed to the standard.

Thank you for understanding what I was trying to say. I am not always tactful. I think she should at least pay to have this dog neutered. I figured I would be cruicified for saying not all yorkies are beautiful.

size
 

my yorkie is about 7 lbs she's still the cutest to me! but why does this puppy have a white chest? it looks like his front is white? i have seen yorkies tiny and bigger they are all really cute . but i don't think i would breed him either.he wasn't bought just to breed though was he?

Oh I didn't mean to offend you or come off bad..
 

Hi,
Oh I didn't mean to offend you or anything or assume you gave false info..I was just saying if a breeder did do this. Also like you said you you were breeding this guy with good intentions. Did your buyer ask if he would be good for breeding material stock, just out of curiousity? Did they want to breed so they can get a puppy out of this or to start a breeding program? Because I think you need to start off with good stock, AKC registered, lineage back 3 gen and champions and to the standard as much as possible if there aren't any ch. I do understand if this was told that the dog is pet quality..and sold as at a reduced rate...or to know they are not breeding quality...

I am sorry to hear that you are disappointed with Ralphie being large, but you said ''I did a great deal of reading before I got Ralphie', did you not research the breeder before purchasing Ralphie? It seems like it is a hard lesson to learn but you know what to look out for next time you buy a puppy. I think also that the larger yorkie shouldn't have been bred, however at the end of the day, you have a beautiful boy, that is healthy, and that is the most important thing (imo) :)

bigger yorkies
 

I have posted twice on this forum about Yorkie sizes,maybe this will put it all into perspective. The original genes in the beginning of the Yorkie breed were of medium to larger sized dogs....very hearty and robust.The small little creatures we know today as our babies, is due to fashion, it became fashionable for the yorkie to be carried about and seen, so they were bred down to be smaller, as they no longer were only used as rat killers and such.If you look outside of the "showey" circle of yorkies you will find 3 basic sizes of yorkie, they may not conform to mans standard of what a yorkie "should be", but it does not mean they aren't 100% yorkie.There are small , medium, and larger sized yorkies, the breeding programs want to keep them to the standard they set out on paper, hence the size must conform.....all it means if your yorkie is larger is that it may have throw back genes to the larger to medium gene pool from way back when.I live in the North of England, where the Yorkie breed originated....and you will see them toddling about our sidewalks in all sizes, no the medium to larger ones wont pass for show standard, and probably shouldn't be bred for high money, but there are pet quality yorkies and show quality.My Moe is definately a medium to small, not tea cup or little.....and he is 100% yorkie.The original Yorkies topped 30 to 50 pounds in weight, and stood to a mans knees, it serves to reason, you will find bigger yorkies outside of a stringent breeding program, due to the original ancestry.

different sized yorkies
 

I am new to this-actually new to a computor!please excuse. I have two l3 wk old brothers (same litter). got at 9 wks. Paddy is problably over 6lbs now, & seamus is 3.8lbs. They do everything different- from eating to peeing but had the same mom & dad - yes, I met them.5 & 6lbs. Not new to Yorkieville - my 15yr old 4lb. Chelsey passed away several months ago. She was sold as "pet only", etc. etc. and she ended up picture perfect -- also litterbox trained within first wk, and so on - so......you just don't know. But I love these boys so much already. and am greiving cause I have to send the big fella to live with my daughter.

pup
 

This is what I have done for many years...if you are not happy with my pup and if at maturity it is NOT what I said it would be..you may keep the dog and I will refund your money...the reason I have not had to refund money is I do not place a pup the buyer does not want..size, color, coat etc...too much stress for me to deal with unhappy pet owners..so don't screw up, Pat LOL

Looking at the grandsire, the breeder had to know there were oversized, mixed trait dogs in the line...many traits like size can skip a generation. The grandsire will continue to pass his strong size genes..so next time this breeder will know ahead of time and not make the same mistake again...double the 12 week weight, works for most lines I know..but spayed/neutered pets tend to add weight to their frame..best wishes

PS...you do not predict puppy weight from birth weight..I have had huge 6 oz pups sectioned out of mom and grew up tp be 3 pounds..my KC was a perfect example...a 2 oz can be 7 poudns..the breeder was in too much of a hurry to get these pups sold before knowing what they had...

I agree with Pat...we have to stand behind our pups/dogs if we are to be considered responsible as breeders. I have had so many calls for a stud service and the caller will say "I have a female and I am not a breeder but my family all love her and want one of her puppies just like her!"
RED FLAG! If you put 2 dogs together and make puppies, that does make you a breeder even if for one time only....and it makes you responsible for the puppies you produce. I am not speaking to ONE person I am using "YOU" in general. I hate it when hard feelings occur out of good intentions.
Getting a puppy requires responsibility on the buyer's and seller's parts and I hope y'all can work this out. Please do not feel offended when I say this but I feel I need to point out that this is one of the reasons why breeding responsibly is one of the most difficult things a person can do. And, rest assured, both Pat and I have had our share of throwbacks but we do not repeat the breeding that produced the problem, whatever it is. We try to get 5-7 gen pedigrees as a basis for our research and learn what the lines mentioned on the ped. produce....
That is only the beginning of the planning and researching...I would suggest you retire the current breeding pair and work to get breed quality "stock". And, that is VERY hard to do...Good luck in sorting this all out...

No, My line of thinking was to avoid the puppies that are mass produced and more or less bred for income, because I was scared it wouldnt be as healthy, and to look to someone local with just one litter. If i had know that so much variation existed, I would have done more research, and i should have. But I have always had dachsunds my whole life and no matter where I got them from, they were always long and looked like a weiner dog... so I just assumed this would be the same way.Now I know better.

However I do feel like i deserve atleast a partial refund. This is how I explained to a friend:

say for your whole life you always wanted a mustang then finally in 2006 you have the money and you have been looking at pictures of them everywhere , so you order you one and they ship it to you, well when you get it, it doesn’t look like a 2006 mustang, it s doesn’t really look like a mustang at all. so you call them up and what they tell you is " Naw baby . its still got the mustang leather, the mustang engine and the mustang emblem. it’s a mustang! you don’t want your car to look like every other car you see out on the road. that one's SPECIAL" you would still be upset because it doesn’t look like what you wanted. it doesn’t look like any mustang you see on TV, the internet , the interstate , and the whole reason you wanted a mustang and saved up your money is because you liked the way they LOOK.

that is how I feel, except you can sell a car and I can not sell ralphie, i love him too much. and yes he is wonderful and cute but my point is he was expensive and not as advertised. And now i have lost the option to breed him as he has these undesirable traits...

takes deep breath as feeling a bit:mad: . breed standard was set by some snobby men in suits sitting in a room, who gave them the right to say whats breed standard or not? when yorkies were first shown there were 2 yorkie sizes one for the small yorkies and one for the larger and imo the true full yorkie, but not many people with the larger sized yorkie or should i say normal sized yorkie bothered to show them as i would think there were just pets owned by normal people with a family, the small yorkies were shown as they were bought by people who used them like some kind of fury fashion handbag so as there were not enough normal sized yorkies that were being shown that size was dropped and along came the breed standard. yorkies that were small were called the runt of the litter in the early years of the breed and were seen as useless and worthless and would have more health problems a lot were killed as no one wanted them. then fashion changed and everyone wanted a small one so the price went up. ive had small and large yorkies and i never bought any of them because of there size i bought them cos i fell for them. if this lady was told it would be breed standard then she should have some money back if she wasnt then she shouldnt, i seen no reason why the dog cant be breed with aslong as he is healthy and the buyers of the pups no they could be large and not for showing.

breed standard
 

I think enough years have passed that the breed standard for size needs looking at, just here on YT I see tons of normal to larger sized yorkies, and thats just a small cross section of all the people who own a yorkie, they surey have the ability to say yup we got normal large and small , or toy....they do it with other breeds of dog, look at the poodle...how many sizes of them are allowed in a show ring? I thin there are so many beautiful "larger" yorkies out there who just don't get thier due credit, because of breed standards.

Tootie pics
 

Ralphies Mom:
here are a few more pics.. as you see, he has "down ears" but I didnt try, he was too cute like he is... basically, I didnt know anything either when I bought him and when I went to the breeder, I was basically told, "o well". I wasnt intersested in pursuing it becuz I am actually happy that he is a big boy and we love him SO MUCH! The vet confirmed that he is full Yorkie as far as he can tell but a groomer(who I didnt like) told me no way! Regardless, he is my baby boy! :D
He is such a ham! The last pic is him at 13 weeks.... Donna

I totally agree with you .

Oh thanks! They do favor alot. I dont know about the ears either. Ralphie had flappy ears at first then he had what i like to call his "satellite ear" (one up one down) ha for like 2 weeks and then they went up and pointy all the time. Does Tootie's hair grow? Ralphies hair looks like tooties and just grows out wavy not straight and long, so that its pretty short.

Not to turn this thread into an argument about the breed standard, but--

I do love ALL the varieties of yorkies we see:

**large and small
**up ears and down
**long legs and "cobby"
**the blond and chocolate as well as the blue/gold
**big noses, small noses, ETC ETC~!!!

I find them all equally adorable!!! But just because all these features exist (in abundance) in yorkies, and are CUTE in all their different ways, does NOT mean they should start changing the breed standard to include them! Because if they did....the "standard" would cease to mean ANYTHING--the variety in this breed is just too great.

Many people find that part of the breed's appeal, and I agree, but I also think that the "breed standard" should be treated as the "breed IDEAL", and that that should be the ultimate goal, for the betterment of the breed.

Then if someone wanted a larger yorkie, or one with a bigger muzzle, or longer legs, or WHATEVER....they could always buy a yorkie MIX, get the wonderful adorable pet they want, and save a buttload of cash. We would ALL win, that way. Those that enjoy them standard, those that enjoy them non-standard, and THE BREED.

the only problem with that is the "mix" pups are just as expensive! LOL
I dont really have an opinion one way or the other except, I love my boy!
d

Tootie has never had "up" ears. When he was little I read alot about it and then decided I liked him like he is. actually the longest hair Tootie has IS on his ears.... his hair is a bit wavy but it is taking FOREVER to grow... he wont keep top knots so I keep his "bangs" cut but I want the rest of his hair to grow long....

I agree with you that was well said. have a larger yorkie and a standard yorkie and they are night and day different

Well, you've got a point, there! And hopefully, THAT ridiculous fad will pass soon, too. (not ridiculous breeding mixes.....ridiculous CHANGING that much for them!!!)

(and I agree....your guy is a CUTIE!!!)

Good post.

haha, your little guy is soooo adorable! Big though! I have 2 yorkie brothers. They are still puppies at 9 months old... but 1 is 4.5 lbs and his hair is very soft, almost curly and his black is more steel gray and he is turning silver. Hes very squat and his legs are short. His ears curl over too. My other guy is VERY long & lean, weighs about 8.5 -9 lbs. He looks more like your guy with the up ears, his colors are JET black and tan/butterscotchish, his legs are long and his hair is very straight. They are both from the SAME litter!

I hope that helps!!! People ask me all the time why they are so different if they are brothers. I think its a dumb question! Not all the puppies are born EXACTLY the same :)

you say for the betterment of the breed? the larger yorkies are healthier than the small yorkies so if it was about whats best for the breed then the breed standard should not include yorkies under 4 pound. also the breed standard like i said did include the larger yorkies but was dropped not cos they were seen as not a good yorkie and shouldnt be breed with but cos not enough people with that size yorkie wanted to show them.