Liver Shunt and what to do about Breeder
 

Hello,

It has been confirmed by top doctors in my town that my Lucy has Liver Shunt. It is not operable as if i choose to pay the 4,000-5,000 she could have a 50/50 chance of suvival and most likely will have life threatning problems after surgery. My doctor studied with Dr.Tobias and they are friends. She is going to be sending her report to Dr.Tobias ans they will discuss this on the phone together to see her comments about my dog.
What i am frusterated now with is the Orginal Breeder is making all kinds of claims how this "dog" can't possibly be hers and her concience is clear of that. I didn't buy my dog directly through her so she claims that she has no contract with me. She is doing everything to wash her hands of this. I have asked her what i can expect from her as to my problem. I am into this for 1,000 to get the answers i have to get her better - and then to diagnois the problem. She is now saying people alter tattooing and that she has no idea whose dog i have, well I have the dog that was born in her home and her tatto is not altered and matches her registration papers. I guess when she did sell the dog to the 1st lady it was agreed to be spayed. Which was never done. She continues to talk about this lady she sold the dog to and how she knew she shouldn't of sold her too her as she lied etc. I explain to her that has nothing to do with LS and the fact I have the dog now and expect the breeder to do something and honor her website says she guarnettes against LIver Shunt and life altering diseases etc.
I want her to end this at the very least so that others do not go on to purchase dogs from her and be in the same situation my family is in.
I told her i would do a DNA if she felt she needed proof. I will not post her name of her Kennel - if i ever posted her name i would like to add that she did take ownership and was accountable for this.
Any advice on what i should do next would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks

You could try taking her to small claims court. I would post the name of the kennel so no one else purchases from her. I am sorry this is happening to you.

I dont know how to handle your situation.. i'm sorry...

but.. who is Dr. Tobias? and where is that doc located?

When my dog kodie was going through testing for a shunt.. he saw Dr. Center at Cornell Unversity. I DID hear of a top doctor for shunt surgery but I forget their name... is that Dr. Tobias?

Yes Dr. Tobias is out of Univ of Tenn and when Cali was going through her LS diagnosis I emailed her and she was very quick in responding.

As far as the Breeder have youchecked with an attorney as to her responsibilty since you were not the original buyer. I'm not sure how that effects her guarantee. It seems to me that is bad business for her to not honor it but if there is nothing you have in writing it may not be anything you can do. Which stinks! I did not have a genetic guarantee on Cali but I did let the breeder know and she said she would not breed the parents again and would notify the owners of her 2 siblings. Whether she does that or not I don't know. It seems like this LS is becoming more and more prevelent because of bad breeders ie puppy mills aetc who don't care about the puppies or what it does to an owner who goes through this with their baby.
Good luck.

I'm sorry you are going through this.
The problem here is you bought the dog through a third party.
If I read your post right.
Contracts usually do not cover or carry over to another person.
Unless the breeder approves it.
The first person who purchased the dog never had the dog spayed which voids most contracts.
Are you sure the person you bought the dog from, didn't know the dog had a shunt and passed the problem on to you?
If you had purchased directly from the breeder, then she would of had to cover the dog...
I'm sorry but I don't think there is anything you can do about it.
Has this breeders.. breeding dogs been tested for shunts?
Was the dog you purchased inbred?
There are a couple different types of shunts.
http://www.peteducation.com/article....&articleid=882
http://www.vet.utk.edu/clinical/sacs/shunt/faq.shtml
http://www.petsdoc.com/html/asktheve...vershunts.html

Here is another great link through Yorkshire Terrier National Rescue. It does list doctors.

http://www.yorkierescue.com/livershunt/livershunt.shtml

Was the woman you brought her from a broker or did she buy her and then resell her. If it's a broker she should also have some kind of contract. If she brought her and resold her I am not sure you have a contract with the breeder. Best of Luck.

She has openly admitted finally that she has 3 shunts in 3 differnt dogs in the 26 years of breeding/showing.

I didn't in the beginning demand $ from her. I don't expect her to repay me what i purchased the dog for. I didn't buy the dog from her - but i do know the dog came from her breeding program. I would like her to take ownership for that and be accountable. I asked her to work with me. She had done nothing of the sort.
You would think it doesn't matter how many hands a dog goes through in this situation - you can't catch liver shunt, your born with it. Its nothing i did, nor the previous owner.

Just curious why you don't want to post her name or the kennel name?

Oh i want too and I will. I am just waiting for my doctor to send her the reports and this will give her the opportunity to review them and do the right thing.

I found out legally i am aloud to post my story, pictures of my dog, her tattoo, her registration papers where she came from, what the kennel name is but i should not slander the Breeder which i won't do and apolagize if i have talked about in any way shape or form. This is to let others no that my dog has Liver Shunt and its been confirmed from the top Specialists in my area and if i can save somebody else from going through the termoil, expense then I will find comfort in that. Yorkies are such a passion for me, I love them and it makes me sad that i have one that has touched my childrens lives and many people in my life and her life is going to live much shorter then it should be. I still have so many decisions to face upon here. I am waiting for the results back from my Vet and then i will post it in hopes that i can save someone else, educate anyone that is thinking of purchasing a Yorkie - whatever you do... Please, please demand a acid bile test, a Pre and a post. This is a forsure way to know that your dog does not have Liver Shunt. I feel for the breeder in many ways too. The last thing a Breeder wants to hear is that a dog comes back testing postive for Liver Shunt. We aren't all perfect we are only human and things happen that just happen. I just trusted that a kennel in business for 26 years would be pretty knowledgeable on their genes of their Yorkies.
I know in my heart that this will have a happy ending for all involved. I am much more educated myself now and in owning Yorkies i should of been to begin with. I am trying to find the good in something that has a very bad situation.
Don't forget - Acid Bile Test. Pre and Post!

Well, unfortunately,I think that you might not have an avenue here as 1) the dog wasn't spayed, which most likely will void the contract, and 2) you, personally, do not have a contract with the breeder...the original owner does. These contracts are usually not transferable to a third party, unless mentioned in the contract.

I don't know alot about contract law, but I think the contract might not be worth the paper it's written on right now, and because of that, the breeder (legally) does not have to do a thing to honor it. She probably feels betrayed a bit by the original owner, and a bit upset being she wasn't contacted by the original owner when she decided to give up the dog.

I'd definitely check with a lawyer, to see what your options are.

I'm so sorry to hear about your little one...I hope that she can get well and that things work out for you.

I am confused. You got this dog from someone other than the breeder and you decided to breed her even though she was sold with a limited registration? The dog got ill (when she was pregnant) and since it is LS you want the original breeder to cover you?

I appreciate your warning about liver shunt for future puppy buyers but it seems like there are details in your story that are left out?

Who did you buy the dog from? Why? Did you get her to breed knowing that she wasn't supposed to be bred?

If I am incorrect in trying to figure this out I am sorry.

hmmmm....I didn't see that anywhere... :confused:

I'm sorry that you are going through this. I hope this person is not a member here or is he/she?

I bought the dog from a breeder who has been helping me along the way here. I am sure she will be the one that helps in the end. When i bought her i have open registration papers, She then became my dog to do what ever i choose with. I didn't know the "history" of the dog that i do now and now i can understand why the orginal breeder feels betrayed. I can see that. I contacted the orginal breeder to discuss that she has what she has. I thought that was a obligation of mine to the breeder, to my dog and to all of you purchasing dogs out there yes? The breeder was not helpful in the beginning. I am not the bad person here - I have beat myself up in the beginning wondering if i possibly did something to my dog to make her sick - when in fact she was born with it.

Hi.... I am sorry you are going through this. My first baby was a LS baby and I went through 2 years of hell with her.
But if you are looking for $ back, which I see you are not.... you have to go after the person who took your money for the dog. But you say you want the breeder to 'work with you' and admit it is her problem. I don't know what that means? What exactly do you want her to do?
As a breeder, I am VERY careful about testing my females and males. I stand behind my dogs and GOD FORBID I ever get a call about a LS baby being produced by me, I would not continue the same breeding. But I would be very UPSET if a puppy sold under SPAY contract was used for breeding when she is CLEARLY not to be used for it. LS as well as any genetic defect can skip many generations..... and as much as breeders test and do all they can...... it is sometimes possible something can come up when the parents and grandparents are clean. Which is why we have guarantees as well. I think you did the right thing about telling her she produced a LS pup. But that is really all you can do and hope she does well with the information. But she was not to be used for breeding as you said she was not. I have a really small program and if one of my babies was ever sick.... I am able to keep him/her and raise him/her. We also do not have children and are financially secure..... but if a breeder produces a sick baby and looks for a good family to place her in..... there is nothing wrong with that for she has the best interest of the pup because she is unable to devote the time. Perhaps you should ask the lady that sold you the dog for breeding if she knew the girl was sick?
I wish you good luck. But you bred a girl you did not test for. What if she didn't show any symptons and had 5 puppies? All puppies turned out to be LS babies? What responsibility do you have there?
I hope everything works out for you but if you continue to breed. Make sure you know where your babies are coming from..... and test them too.

Ls
 

I do not think the breeder has any responsiblity to you in this matter, except moral support. The person you bought the Yorkie from bears the monitary responsibility. If I sell my house and the buyer resells it..am I responsible to the new buyer for any defects..? I do not think the law will side with you, but I have been wrong before..the person who bought from the breeder needs to contact her.
I know you are upset and concerend for your dog..but a defect that appears 3 times in 26 yrs is not consider a serious problem.. it is nothing to ignore of course..I know high volume show/hobby breeders who get 3 shunts a year and see nothing wrong in continuing to breed the lines.

I know! This breeder will not just come out with all the Liver Shunt babies and tell us how big the numbers are.. 3 to me sounds great - i would be number 4... no one will ever know the whole story.
When purhasing her i had enough information that made me feel i was buying a 100% healthy dog. I was responisble with this Dog - I found out she was sick - took her to the doctors and spent the money to get her well - took one step further went to the top Specailist to access the LS and if she was pregnant god forbid my doctor and i discussed how she would have to end the pregnancy.
This isn't about being pregnant, this isn't about being spayed for me this is about a dog with LIver Shunt and I brought it to the breeder's attention and she basically said Not my dog.

So the breeder you got her from bought her with "limited registration" meaning she agreed to spay? Then she sold to you with full registration?

That is a separate issue from the LS problem but it may affect any claim you can make? How do we know the person you got her from did not suspect something?

I don't know much about LS but I know there are special needs for dogs that have it. (diet?) I just wonder if pregnancy can trigger problems? Isn't this dog 2 years old? Don't most dogs with "congenital liver shunt" show symptoms earlier? or is it common in dogs this age?

I know you are upset. But YOU bred a girl who has a LS without testing her. Her dogs might all be clean of LS.... it can skip generations. Why are you giving her such a hard time when you did the SAME thing? I think you should just take care of your LS baby. You have a long and hard road in front of you now. She needs your attention the most right now. Spend your time trying to help your baby.
When you first posted about your pregnant girl acting strange..... I knew those words all too well. My first ever yorkie did that but she did it at 4 months old. I contacted her "breeder" or broker..... whatever she was and she denied it too. I didn't want money back because I would never return her... she was MINE and I wanted to care for her. So I did what I could for her. SHe was 3 lbs and inoperable..... many many shunts and died at 2 years old. It was a long 2 years and she is always in my mind. After her is when I started breeding and believe me I did my research this time and I dealt with breeders who had great reputations and ones I spoke to at length. It still does not guarantee I can never produce a sick baby but I am doing ALL I can to ensure I am responsible.

I am looking after her - She has made a good turn around and she is herself again! She looks great, it can trick the mind that could their possibly something still wrong with her - She knows me, she can hear, see and she is bouncing all over the place.. all because of great Doctors and the proper diet, and medicines. This is a band-aid thou. There is no way to know when the next outburst is going to happen. I did not do the same thing as the orginal breeder. I don't even classify myself in the same category and your right i think i am getting off track here with what i need to do. I have other Yorkies and nobody has Liver Shunt and is perfectly healthy. I did not buy her with a limited registration - Its a super long story and alot of the story is just to much to go into - heck i just learned about it myself in the last 2 weeks and really isn't something that needs to be explained. In my research i have learned that it doesn't just show up in puppy's or in the 1st year of a Yorkie's life. I thought that too - i have read about cases like mine now and even up to 4 -5 years old.
Anyways thankyou all for all your help advice, i have learned alot and am quite vulnerable right now on this whole thing. My dog is doing good and is not on her death bed today, I still have her to love and play with for today. So far she has had the best care, seen the best doctors and is on the best medicine for her.

Again thanks

How can the breeder that is mentoring you sell you a dog with open registration papers? She has no right to mention any sort of papers. She can only do a transfer of the type of registration that she has as the dogs owner. She can't turn around and sell you a dog with open registration when in fact she was only able to purchase the dog with a limited registration with a spay/neuter addendum.

The orginal contract of sale should be null and void due to the fact that the buyer didn't follow through with the stipulations of the sale.

You don't particularly have any recourse that you can take with that breeder. If anyone can do anything it would have to be the breeder that is mentoring you that purchased from the pup's breeder.

You held up your end by being nice and notifying her of the liver shunt issue. I am curious as to why your refuse to name the breeder. If you want to warn someone it's best to let them know who in particular seems to be someone to be wary of. Your mentor (the person that sold you this dog)...what does she say in all of this?

I didn't realize you were breeding her (guess I missed that part somewhere)...I'm truly shocked that the person who sold you the pup sold it with full registration after she signed a limited registration contract with the original breeder! It's so unfair to the original breeder. Now I definitely understand why she's upset.

My dog's name is Yorkhouse's Lucy in the sky with Diamonds. She is CKC Registered. Her Tatoo is MLY 20P RF

1st of all i didn't get Lucy for Breeding. She was not bought to breed. She is a pet to me. Like i said this is a long story.
Anyways it looks like there is light at the end of the tunnel and I am happy to say the Orginal breeder will be dealing with the 1st lady that broke her contract with her and they will be straigtening that out between the two of them. The orginal breeder doesn't really owe me much by the sounds of it but It looks like there will be light at the end of this tunnel.

There isn't a mentor invovled in all of this.

?
 

Okay..now I am confused...is this Yorkie AKC or not..what CKC..Canadian KC or Continenal KC...

Maybe I should start over here...

Hi My name is YorkyBaby and I am a mom of 5 kids(single) and we care and adore for the Yorkshire Terrier. I love them!!! I fell in love with a 1 1/2 old Yorkie about 5 mos ago. Beautiful!!! She has her own little character. When she arrived i realized she was quite small, too small to breed. I was not interested in breeding her. I do have a male that is young ( too young to have active sperm)
One day he got her and tied with her, little bugger tied with her again, i separated them, called my vet and she explained don't worry he is probably shooting blanks but we will observe her just incase. ( at this time it never crossed my mind that if by chance she got pregnant would i be breaking any agreements in a contract of any sort) Shortly after this episode i noticed differnt things about her worrying the whole time if everything was okay. My vet said we would do an ultrasound and she was postive she isn't pregnant. WE talked about spaying her NOT because of the information i have now learnt but because i forever wanted to keep her and I didn't want my Male to get her.... Nothing stops a male. Then she started to show signs towards the liver shunt... The top doctors one who has studied with Dr.Tobias in Tennesse told me this has nothing to do with my guy getting her by accident... nothing to do with spayed papers, open papers.. She actaully called me a victum in this situation as I believed i was getting a healthy dog who was liver shunt free. I almost feel like you guys are drilling me like i have done somethign wrong.
I came here for support and comfort and i get the feeling that i am alone in this when it comes to the boards. I didn't come here to bad mouth and grab you all as my groupies.. I just came here for comfort.

CKC means she is a candian Registered Dog

Candian Kennel Club

I am very sorry..but please understand my confusion. You say this female is from a show breeder, but then you say she is CKC...I was wondering what KC, because it make a world of difference.
I am sorry this has happened to you...I wish you the best and hope it all works out fo ryour girl and her litter..DR TObias must have been turning cartwheels..she had been trying to breed a litter from a proven LS female for a very long time..it will help her reseach. Best wishes