I need to vent for a second about our breed...
 

The fact of the matter is that while they all stem pretty much from the same "dog", our PUREBREDS were bred/inbred/linebred to produce certain behavioral characteristics and certain phenotypes that when bred back to one another showed a consistency in "type". This art has gained popularity because everyone has their own "type" and have little regards to the proper "type" set forth by an organization to maintain the overall health and phenotype of a pure bred Yorkie. That being the case, and w/ everyone producing their own "type" (correct or not) that is how we arrived at today's point of the Yorkie that is 1 1/2 lbs ranging all the way up to 20 lbs. That is a CLEAR indicator of a lack of control on the phenotype and health of the breed. Therefore, any Yorkie that does not fit that imo shouldn't be bred and be registered. You are developing your own "type" and since that doesn't fit (let's say AKC for example) "the" organizations standard, don't register them! All you're doing by doing so is falsifying that you are adhering to standard AND you may be attempting to get more money from the litter(s) you produced by selling those pups w/ "registration papers"-which is FALSE ADVERTISING! How many people do you know or can think of in just 3 short minutes that has complained about getting a "AKC Yorkshire Terrier" and can't understand why it's 8 lbs (not obese) and it clearly states in the standard that it shouldn't be?? I CAN THINK OF MANY. And THAT is terrible.
We've all come so accustomed to accepting that, "Oh well, it's just a big Yorkie, that's okay...ho hum I'll breed him/her anyway. She's a lovely dog."
YEAH, a "lovely dog" NOT a lovely Yorkie, so sure, breed your dog-just don't register it and advertise it's pups as AKC, YOU are compounding the problem, NOT fixing it!
*grr*
(and I mean the royal You when saying "you".)

---->This was posted early in a response to another thread, I just felt I should make a new thread on this for those interested in rebuttle.

WOW! You've made some excellent points. I do not know which thread you are referring to but that's okay. I agree that we've had several people in the past come here and ask if they have a real yorkie, they have papers, etc. but the dog doesn't resemble one. The standard was set and that's what people have fallen in love with. I've seen more yorkies that do not fit the standard and it's gotten to the point that yeah, I can see some yorkie in there but even I'm not sure.

It doesn't take away from being a wonderful pet, though. I've seen some yorkies that are not in the "standard" but are beautiful, just the same.

I think you drew a very clear picture. I doubt that anything will change though. You're sort of "preaching to the choir" here.

You have some education in genetics, therfore you see things differently than a lot of people. You have also taken the time to study the breed which many haven't.

Many of the YTr's, including myself, (and I have owned 2 yorkies before), didn't know much about the breed when they bought their first yorkie, and before they came to YT.

They bought it because they thought it was cute and someone told them it was registered, so they thought this must be what all yorkies look like.

They came to YT, either because they had a question, or because they were excited and wanted to talk to other yorkie owners, or maybe, as in my case, they wanted to learn more about the breed, before they started breeding them.

It's too bad we can't educate everyone before they buy, or breed. But the sad truth is, there are many breeders out that that, even if they knew, they wouldn't care.

And..... Unfortunately - Yorkies are becoming more and more popular which is very bad for any breed.

What you're seeing now is probably nothing compared to a few years down the road. It's sad but true. The scammers are everywhere and people are making money...just because a yorkie has 'Papers' it doesn't mean a thing.

I think many of us learned that lesson. I LOVE my girls...but neither of their breeders were what I consider a GOOD breeder.

I agree with the points Villette brings up.
IMO When I purchase a Yorkie and pay a lot of money I want a puppy that is going to be within standard. That is the reason I want a purebred dog so I know what it will grow up to be. It also seems to me a lot of the non standard looking ones end up is Rescue because people did not research prior to buying and when it doesn't look like a yorkie they expected they get rid of it. I have a pom whi s/b 4-6 lbs and she is 13 lbs. Do I love her less, no, but I would have preferred she had stayed true to the standard. I also think that until puppy mills are out of business you will never have control of a breed standards.

I think non-standard and unethical breeding will continue to occur, as just like in any industry, there will be bad and good breeders. The best we can do is to educate as many about the Yorkie breed that we can, from helping newcomers to the breed find out where good places are to get Yorkies from (not petstores), to what to ask the breeder, to what to look for when purchasing a Yorkie.

Also, it's very hard to determine a Yorkie's weight when they are a baby (as we all know) as there are no guarantees on weight at all, even if both Yorkie Mom & Dad are in the standard range. The fact that registration occurs when the Yorkie is a baby means that even if the Yorkie grows to be ten pounds, it's still considered a registered Yorkie even though it may not fit the standard 4 to 7 pound range. This registration then filters down to any Yorkie babies this Yorkie has.

Another aspect we have to remember is price. The top-notch breeders (ones with show or champion lines) will tend to have higher priced Yorkies, as one would generally expect. Because not everyone can afford the higher priced ones, there will always be lower-level priced Yorkies as well. That's not saying lower prices means a lower-quality Yorkie at all. But there may be more problems with breed standard issues with Yorkies that are at the lower-level price. And there are those that just breed for money, high or low priced.

Educating all potential Yorkie parents, one at a time, is the only thing I would think would help, though this is a very slow process...

We will always see Yorkies of many different sizes and colors. I don't think this is a "real problem". In fact, I find it rather amazing and quite interesting. And - even with so many different little Yorkies, we still have to meet the standards if we want to show our dogs. And, meeting these standards well is what makes the most genuine prototype of any breed...the true show dog.

That being said --- there isn't a reason in the world why anyone's dog has to adhere to any standards to be bred. Breeding always has been and always will be a personal choice. Purebreds and mixed breeds have been bred - one to the other and one with one another for centuries, and the end result has been a wide variety of many beautiful, wonderful pets.

If I had wanted to breed my (now neutered) Yorkie with another Yorkie ----
I could have. And, for heaven's sake, I wouldn't have needed any one's permission to do it. My little dog is a very handsome good-looking Yorkie - albeit, he is 1 1/2 pounds above the standard weight. His mother was big like he is, but his father was only 4 1/2 pounds. My Yorkie may well have fathered a litter of 5 or 6 pound Yorkies.

I'll leave "not registering" these little "off-standard Yorkies" to you "purists."
I tend to agree with you - but, I'm not really sure that this is your or my decision to make. Putting show-dog standards aside, I have always found the little Yorkie (with it's coat of many colors) and it's many sizes to be one of the most interesting, delightful little breeds we have to choose from. It's as though "There is the right little Yorkie for every family," and we can't say this about any other breed.

Carol Jean

PS: Yes, I do believe that "off-standard breeding" is what is most responsible for the wide variety of little Yorkies we see. But, I'm willing to bet all these little guys are going to be around for a while.

All small dogs that became "standard" came from big dogs, so the fact that there are yorkies not fitting the "standard" is understandable. Dogs were breed to fit the specific needs of their owners. Many people give the AKC a lot of weight but it's just a group of breeders who decided what "standards" dogs like yorkies should have. The AKC is a business and makes a lot of money off of this, If they were as concerned as many pet owners are they would not make registering dogs so easy.

It's humans that make these decisions, the yorkie has become purebred because a person said so, it's humans who choose and select what they consider desirable in a dog.

It's a long road w/ low percentages, but I'm gonna try!
 

"It's too bad we can't educate everyone before they buy, or breed. But the sad truth is, there are many breeders out that that, even if they knew, they wouldn't care."


I have yet to find a valid reason to throw up my hands and quit trying.

This is a very interesting thread. Please correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the AKC registration only certify that the pup is a "purebred" yorkshire terrier, and does NOT certify that the pup will mature to the exact standard? That is my understanding anyway. Thanks! :)

I believe the AKC registration does confirm the fact that the pup is purebred. However, because of not only bad breeding, but also genetic throwbacks not all of them would fall into the breed standard that AKC has set. The AKC breed standards are the guidelines that an ideal specimen would fall into. And according to these standards is how the judge for competitions & shows.

The AKC standards are applicable to ALL breeds not just Yorkies. Pick any breed on the AKC website and you'll find the standards plus what is considered a defect. Many times a defect will be something with the animal's coat so obviously Yorkies aren't the only ones with different types of hair or coloring. It just may not be as noticable to we yorkie lovers. My friend has a beagle....he is the shortest beagle I've ever seen. I'm certain people ask if he is a mix.

I would be far more concern about the "breeders" who advertise their pups as having champion lines or champion sired....and there isn't a champion anywhere in the line. I'd be interested in knowing exactly how many people ever even question that statement.

I'm quite aware of that, hence I didn't just specify Yorkies. ;) :thumbup:

I hope this is clear! lol
 

"This is a very interesting thread. Please correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the AKC registration only certify that the pup is a "purebred" yorkshire terrier, and does NOT certify that the pup will mature to the exact standard? That is my understanding anyway. Thanks!"

Yes, you are correct. The AKC isn't in place to certify what your dog will be at maturity. Is was originally designed, however, to certify that the dog you're trying to register w/ their "club" was produced from parents that fit the standard of their perspective breed. That is NOT what it is today, unfortunantely. Our registries have climbed in numbers and under an UNwatchful eye of poor presidentialship of the AKC. If the club had followed the footsteps of the founders, only those dogs that "should" be bred (because they fit the standard prior to showing or mating) would be registered. Now, if those two adults bred together and produced pups that were out of standard, yet were registered when they were a litter, and then matured to be poor representations of the breed, they wouldn't be bred back to an AKC registered dog (therefore the progeny wouldn't be registerable) thus stopping out a vicious cycle that is present today. Does that make sense? You produce a litter of Yorkies, from let's say two phenominal specimens, and three pups come to this world. One is BLACK and so okay, not a recognized color and so it doesn't get registered. And the other two come out w/ proper pigment and color and so you DO register them. You follow your pups in their new homes (like any good breeder would) and you discover that one is GORGEOUS and is actually being shown (bravo) and the other is equally "cute", but is 12 pounds and has everything going for it-except the size. And that 12 pounder is already registered! What do you do? No biggie. The problem only come w/ this situation if/when the dog in question ever produces a litter him/herself. WHO are they going to breed this 12 pounder to?? NOT a dog that is registered-not according to proper "breeding" ethics of back in the day. And so, there really isn't a problem. The breeder that produced that 12 pounder simply needs to go back and do her homework and decide what she's going to do as far as genetics go w/ her foundation stock.
And while there is a problem NOW, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to fix it as best we can for the future. Yes, I think that the AKC should be a form of elitest group for purebred dogs. Why? Because that's what many of these puppy buyers ALREADY think it is! And yet they're buying these registered Yorkies that look like Silky or Austrailian Terrier crosses! I'm certain the AKC doesn't have enough staff to put forth a team that can go and examine all the kennels of the breeders out there to assist and so I've taken it upon myself to take the higher road and simply not produce something from a foundation stock that doesn't fit the standard. I refuse to be a part of that vicious cycle myself.

Thank you yorkieK9trainer for taking the time to explain. My Baxter is a very good example of this. The breeder from where he came is widely recognized and respected in the NY area. She judges for the AKC and has had over 150 champions here and abroad. Baxter's parents were both beautiful specimens who conformed to the breed standard. (I saw both of them). When I first contacted the breeder, I mentioned that we were looking for a larger male, and she mentioned that her present litter had two small females, and two larger males. We chose Baxter who was 5 lbs at 12 weeks. On the registration papers she gave us, she checked the box "offspring of this dog not eligible for registration". Baxter is now 16 months old and weighs 12 lbs. He is in every way an exact replica of a 7 lb yorkie, only larger, and he is just perfect for our family.

Now his size is not the breeders fault. She bred to the best of her ability, and nature and genetics did the rest. Our official AKC papers also state clearly, "offspring of this dog not eligible for registration". Isn't this a fair way to handle situations like this, since they are unavoidable?

Amanda 7
 

If at that time (before the puppy leaves the breeders home) any puppy is CLEARLY not going to fit the standard of the parent club the breeder is registering with, then YES, I think it is a very fair and ethical way to deal w/ things. Especially since many of the buyers of Yorkies simply want a happy/healthy pet! The honest truth though, is that a lot of these people go in wanting a pet, but after falling in love w/ it and getting tons of complements (by people who don't really know the breed anyway) they want to then breed their Yorkie and that's simply not right. I can understand if they wanted to do so and went back to the breeder and said, hey look...and presented their questions...that's one thing. But many are just going off and doing it and think that all they need is another registered dog and *poof* you have healthy "Champion lineage" puppies and charge an insane amount of money for sh*$ Yorkies.
It's insane and all cycles can be broken. Where do we begin?? *raises hand* I'll go first happily! ;)

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: My sentiments exactly!!

Good luck with the education of peoples . Several peoples are most interested to buy at cheaper prices and sell at higher prices . As soon as they have a female , they go and buy a male , not really looking at what they really have .

My neighbor offered me her Yorkie for one of my girls . I answered " Never " , she was offended because I refused . She explain that her male came from a reputable breeder that have 20 other breeds , etc , etc .

I agree with yorkie trainer. I have looked at so many yorkie sites and there are so many that don't even look like yorkies. YOu look at the breeds that aren't as popular and they all look like what they are..But look at yorkies. I've never seen a single breed like this breed that varies so much in look and size. Its ridiculous. YOu buy a lab and you know exactly what it will grow up to look like..Buy a yorkie and alot times it grows up looking totally dif from your friends yorkie. And the size really bothers me when I see people breeding females that are so small to males that are even smaller. They don't even look like yorkies. Alot of them have bulging eyes and i don't know. It's just not right. And what happened to 7 pounds being small. These days thats considered big..who started that one..thats just silly. I"m not one for showing but i have to say ..look at their dogs then go check out all the websites and you'll find very few that have dogs that look like the standard. I'm not saying show your dog but I do think we all need to strive for what they are striviing for. A good quality healthy yorkie that looks like a yorkie. NOt these dogs that are being sold that half the time look more mixed breed than my mixed breed dog looks..

Let me respond by saying all your preaching is useless because the ones that are producing the outside of the standard yorkies are either puppymillers or backyard breeders and they just don't give a da--. Almost all decent breeders do adhere to the standard, which by the way is not 4 to 7 pounds, but rather no larger than 7 pounds, there is no minimum listed in the standard. Good breeders do the research before breeding.

yorkies were a lot bigger than they are today and maybe in some peoples opinions were really the way yorkies should of stayed and the larger yorkies are more of a true yorkie than the breed standard of today. yorkies were bred down in size cos thats what people wanted and never thought about the health of the now tiny yorkie, breed two runts together and get smaller yorkies people pay more thats all some breeders cared about not about any health problems they would have. if you want to show a yorkie then a breed standard needs to be set of course but why not 3 breed standards one for the tiny yorkies one for the middle of the road yorkies and one for the larger yorkies? i think its only yorkies that come in so many different sizes so why should only the so called breed standard ones be allowed to be showed and the others be seen and classed as not good yorkies? who gave these people the right to say this size is a good yorkie and this one isnt? maybe the breed standard is wrong and should be changed? maybe the breed standard needs to go up in size so the lowest weight should be around 5 pound,ie the size of the original yorkie the true yorkie the one with not so many health problems?

My question is not to the breeders, the bad lines, the bad breedings, the types, but to THE AKC THEMSELVES...Why do they continue to allow so many different "types" that DO NOT fit the standard to be registered with their "club"? If they truly stood behind their standards, shouldn't there be stricter rules for getting into their "club"?

They are not much different really than all of the above. They obviously love their money very much.

I do however agree with you yorkiek9trainer on MANY points of your original post. :)

Back in the early days of showing yorkies they had 2 classes. Dogs over 5 pounds, and those under. Now we have a max. of 7 pounds but no minimum, although you will not see very tinies in the ring because people that show know that no judge is going to pick a tiny to win, especially a tiny female. Too dangerous to breed her, and when you show in conformation you are usually showing to prove you have good dogs to eventually breed.

I agree I think the bigger yorkies are healthier and prettier in my opinion.
I think you will find all good breeders say that no female should be bred that is under 5 pounds whether there was minimum set or not it's overall better for a breeding female to be at least 5 pounds. Commen sense will tell you that. That to me is not a matter of personal preference..it's a matter of doing whats best for the mom and a caring breeder doesn't take risk such as breeding a 3 or 4 pound yorkie.

The AKC is not a club, but a registery. They do not set the standards. The breed clubs do that. The AKC only goes by what is on the registeration, they do not see the dogs to know if they look as they should. It is much harder to get into the YTCA than it is to register a Yorkie with the AKC.

The American Kennel CLUB

Yes, the name is American Kennel Club, but it is still a registery. You do not join it, you register your dogs with them so that you can show in the exhibitions they hold. You are not a member of the AKC, you have an AKC registered dog. You can join a breed club, or a local kennel club, these are not registeries.

It was called the American Kennel Club because when it orginated it was made up of 12 men that were all members of other kennel clubs, and they consideded this group the club of clubs, or the American Kennel Club. The developed to register dogs, keep records of studs, hold dog events and promote the purebred dogs. They set the standards for the dog shows and events held by them.

ive just put post up about breed standard :)

Great. I'll check out your post. I am definitely not in the mood to debate what the AKC is or isn't...the club I've registered with for over 11 yrs now. :)