Last Straw.. He Bit a Little Boy Tonight at Petsmart
 

I've had it. I have had it. I have had it! Tonight Harley bit a little boy. I went to Petsmart for some shopping and a little boy of about 8 or 9 walked up and asked if he could pet Harley. I told him that he has bitten in the past and would most likely try but that he could try if he wanted to. So I asked him to make his hand palm up and let him smell him first and his hand wasn't under Harley's nose for 2 seconds before he went apes***.. :( He made the most horrible snarling noises and bit down several times but thankfully never broke the skin and the boy was fine. I appologized so many times I lost count and checked his hand over and he just smiled and said, "It's ok mam, he's probably just tired." :( *sigh* I don't know what's worse.. Him biting someone who shoves their hand in his face without warning or asking and gets pissed and hollers at me for it or a little innocent calm and forgiving little boy.. I feel so guilty.. Like I've let Harley down and like I've let everyone he's aggressive towards down too.. I don't know what to do. For the first 5 or 10 seconds after he bit him I was worried about him and making sure he wasn't hurt but as soon as I came back into reality I took Harleys scruff and put pressure on the back of his neck with my fingers (as if they were teeth) and made him lay down in the front of the cart for the rest of the store visit. Which I know REALLY peeved him off bc he couldn't watch everybody or sniff at the other dogs and it was obvious just how peeved he was when we got in the car (btw I locked my keys in my car too tonight.. great evening huh) bc he pouted the whole way home and wouldn't look at me once. This evening before this incident a 2 older ladies approached him (he rode in the cart this time.. harnessed in.. I've found this was the only safe way to bring him there now.. :sad: ) and they reached out to him when I had my back turned and I only realized they were there when I heard one of them start saying how sweet he looked and I automatically jerked around, said he bites very firmly and covered her hand before she got too close.. This close call really frightened me bc she was very elderly and had very thin papery skin and I don't know if I could have lived with myself if he had hurt her.. And then after that about 10 min later a woman in her mid 20's approached and asked me if she could pet him, I warned her about his biting and asked her to go palm up and etc and she did this and he was fine. Her daughter then came up without warning (16or17) and put her hand on top of Harley's head and he was about to go after her hand when I grabbed her hand away and her mother told her what to do and once she did it he was fine with her.. I'm so confused.. And embarassed.. I feel like a failure and like a danger to society bc I can't control my own little dogs behavior. Everyone wants to pet him and see him bc he's so darn cute and he really is a doll but he's nasty with kids and strangers and I'm running out of answers and excuses.. I love my dog but I can't stand the 'hate' that seems to be in him.. I don't want to muzzle him bc I'll feel like a freak and I know he probably will too.. But is it coming down to that? I don't want to leave him behind..

I know this is old news.. Harley being aggressive.. but I had to vent.. I just feel like the lowest of lows right now after all this.. :cry:

very sorry. but try this: keep some treats with you. when people ask to pet him, give them a treat to feed him. then repeat the hand smell process. test that on somone you know like a friend, but someone harley doesn't know that well either. im not a profesional or anything, but try that.

I'm really sorry. I know how hard it is to leave him at home. Have you looked into working with a trainer or behaviorist? They can really help you do amazing things. My neighbor's dog, Pickles, has some serious fear of people & dogs and we are working on it with her. I always carry treats, and I started by throwing treats to her. Now I can walk right up to her and give her a treat, no problem. She and Loki always bark at each other, so in the summer we stand in our driveway and feed them both treats while they sit about 3 feet away from each other. It's awesome. It's like re-conditioning them. It's like Pickles know that if she sits near the little furry dog with no tail she will get food. She doesn't have to like him, but good things happen when he's around. And she sees me as that crazy neighbor lady that always feeds her. Maybe they can work on something like that with Harley? There are so many things that the trainers know that might help. But make sure it's a positive trainer, because the wrong kind of training can make aggression worse.

OMG, I would NOT permit anyone to pet him but for even a different reason. People can transfer germs to the dog. I have a sign on my cart that says "Ask mom before you pet us" but mostly I use my "DO NOT TOUCH" sign.
The fact that you told the kid ahead of time that he bites puts you in a legal bind if the family decides the child has injuries either pyhsical or emotional..
Maybe a tiny muzzle in conjunction with the treat training that puppylove 123 suggested.
Frankly, this sounds really serious to me and I know how troubled you must be about it...

I agree that it is serious. I'm trying to be sympathetic since you are really upset, but I agree that you should not let anyone pet him. It's not worth the risk. A trainer can see little clues before the dog bites and they have ways to make sure no one gets hurt. Plus, they are professionals and it's their job. I'm really hoping you see someone about it. Good luck.

hmmmm, I'm sorry you are having a hard time with Harley. I think the treat idea that puppylove 123 is a good idea. You might want to take Harley to classes. Petsmart has them, it's worth a try. I'm sure he wants pets from people, he's just is afraid of strangers. Remember, he's a furbaby, like we tell our children not to talk to strangers, well Harley is afraid of them. That could very well be a good thing, lokk how many furbabies have been stolen. I don't think they would get to Harley. But as far as someone asking if they can pet him, with you right there, you might want to look into classes, just to be on the safe side. Hang in there :)

I'm sorry that you had this problem with Harley...it is very upsetting and really serious. Chewy doesn't like children much and has tried to nip at them before and when they ask to pet him I simply just say no. I don't ever want to risk it.

Maybe you can go to see someone who can pinpoint why he is acting like this and try to work on the problems.

Good luck!

Stop take a beep breath and hang on.
This is patchable if you are intrested????
This is my area of knowledge.
Got a pissy girl in my house. like she can and was bite and it an I will kill you if you touch me bark that she uses.
I need more info from you.
If your intrested I can point you in the right direction.
It not a boat load of fun having a handful in your home but turning them around is a learning experince and can be amazing.
I have to say no more letting anyone touch him till we get working and are far down the road to a patch. The word no and the use of yourself as a body blocker to people trying to touch him is a must.
He needs to be protected. He is the one in pain.
He does not see his world as safe.
You mat never know why he does not think he is safe but he does not.
You body block and say no to people a few times and he will get you have is butt covered.
I do not know how old Harley is so I am saying patch.
He can live a normal like life with good management and a little more specialized training.
Do not beat your self up. These guys are intresting in the way the look at and see the world. These guys are the smarter f the yorkie gang. Most aggressive dogs are very smart. Part of it is they think way to much.
If you want you can PM me more info.
We can get into specific plans.
This will not be easy and there will be set backs and sometimes you will feel like your not making head way, then the light goes off in their head and things get easier.

Have faith.
I have had to keep the faith and hang in while watching a little one loose her mind and come back. Not fun but she in my lap and loving life and well changing.
Hugs to you both.
Joy

I like to add it takes a ton of brave to come forward and say your dog was issues. May just hide it in shame.

Joy

Leanne, this is terrible. I feel badly for you and for Harley. :( I don't have any answers for you but I do hope that you can break him of this. I agree with everyone that said to not let anyone touch him. He has some type of issues and hopefully, a trainer who specializes in things like this can help you. :(

Oh, I hate this for you!! I am constantly telling my little girl, Don't pet anybody's doggie except ours. She loves dogs, and if I see that look...I ask the owner, does it bite, may she pet it??? If they say yes, it bites, it crushes my daughter, but we understand. People always ask us when we are out and about, and I like that. I don't want some stranger petting without permission!! I feel so sorry for you and Harley! :(

I'm sorry this happened. I wouldn't bring him anywhere anymore. It sounds like he gets freaked out and fear-bites :(

http://www.clickerteachers.net/
There is one clicker trainer in WV.
Call or email and ask where they send thier aggressive dogs.
Also there is an aggressive dog group on line but I am not sure I can post it here. Can be a nie support when it busy.
Ask your vet for a Behaviourist and you want letters from University behind thier name.
You want to see them work with an aggressive dog and they had better be being gentle. Before you let them near you dog.

Ask for their reading list and cross check it with http://www.clickersolutions.com/reading.htm

Also Ttouch can help in this case.
http://www.animalambassadors.com/practitioners.shtml

Joy

I am so sorry this is happening to you. I agree that you shouldn't let anyone pet him at least until he's over this. I would seek the advice of a trainer because if he does bit someone, you can get in trouble and I hate to even think about what would happen to the poor little guy.
I am wondering about a couple things. Are you the only one he is around most of the day? Maybe he's not used to men, boys, or children. Do you think something happened to him to make him be this way? Or is it possible that he is just being protective over you? Usually poms have this problem, but some yorkies do too. Some dogs attack other people who get too close to their "mom's." My Brandy doesn't like it if I am holding her and someone sits next to me or if the other dog gets too close. I think it's kind of like her saying, "She's MINE."

Sorry posting as I think of things.
I recommend that you start Harley on a gentle leader or I prefer a halti and martingale or harness setup.
Halti goes on and a line is run from it to a harness or martingale to protect against the him getting away if the halti comes off.
Martingale is what many use on Greyhounds and tiny ones can be found with out a lead attached all ready.
I run my girl on the halti harness and had one custom made with a D ring in the front to attach the halti.
Haltie needs to adjusted so that it is tight in the back and pined or stitched so it will not slip.
Halti works well in a situation that you must get a dogs mouth closed and fast. Gentle leader does not have that ability but works well for control.
Hatli is not a muzzle and it is not unkind.

http://www.sitstay.com/store/equip/collars2.shtml
http://www.halti.co.uk/halti.php


Joy

I have a feeling he feels like he's protecting YOU....and from what I've read (I have no experience with this at all) maybe you could try a training class with him to turn this behavior around ?

Leanne, it's going to be OK
 

I am seeing that there are a bunch of good folks offering you great advice, and I really feel like you will be able to turn Harley around, honey. Hang in there!! ;)

Leanne. Just sending you a hug or two ..and a tail wag to Harley even if he misbehaved I know you love him ..and its like when a kid does somthing bad you just feel so darn bad I know I would..I think You are a good doggie mom and will find a answer till then be good to you and know this is a new day . :wavey:

I can relate to you. My Jack (who just turned 1) is the same way. When he's home with me (which is 24/7) he's a sweet pea. He hates most kids and gets very aggressive with them. He growls and runs after them barking and tries to bite them. When were in public I dread someone coming up to us because they automaticly want to reach out and touch. Some people he's ok with and some people he goes nuts trying to bite them.I have no idea what determines his biting moods. I don't know if he's frightened or if it's a protection thing or some other unknown problem . Until I get to the bottom of it I just don't allow anyone to touch him. Try not to get angry with him, I understand your frustration,but it just comes from the unknown, and until we find the cause we can't heal them.

Joy,
Can you tell me more about how you used the halti with the harness? I tried it but I was not sure if I was fitting it on my 13 week old yorkie.
Leanne,
I have no answers to your problem. I wish you luck with Harley.

I agree. If you know he bites, you definitely should not have let that child even attempt to pet your dog. I suggest not taking him with you when you go on outings unless it is to the vet. It sounds like your dog is completely strung out and a nervous wreck when out in public. You know he bites, so the best thing is to prevent the situation. From now on, when someone asks to pet him, instead of saying "he bites so try this first", you should just simply state "I'm sorry, but I can't let you. He has been known to bite and I don't want to be responsible if you he chooses to bite you. Thank you for taking an interest in my dog though."

I don't mean to sound harsh or anything, but one thing i can not stand is when an owner knows their dog bites but allows it to be put in a situation where it can bite again. That's irresponsible in my opinion. And if you are really that frustrated with the biting, then stop putting him in that situation.

Well, Harley will be a year on March 10, 2006.. As far as why he's aggressive towards some people but not all.. I have no idea.. He HATES being rushed. IE when people come up on him w/o letting him smell and accept them into his 'bubble' and especially when they rush on him and carry their hands over his body.. That's when he REALLY gets defensive. His first experience with children was a bad one. We were sitting outside our local grocery store when two young children approached.. both were acting crazy, making lots of noises, jumping everywhere and being quite random (like children). Well even through all that Harley was ok and just sat on the ground at my feet watching them.. Then one of them came right up to him and kicked him.. Hard.. And he ran back behind the bench we were sitting on and tried to blend himself in with the brick wall.. :( I was so angry that the kid had hurt my dog that I scooped him up and babied him for a long time. And since he has HATED all kids. Anywhere from 3-13 if you're not atleast 5ft tall he's going to bite you or atleast growl and bark. The bark/growl/cry he makes while (wish he'd make it BEFORE he bites) he's attacking is a HORRIBLE sound.. It's very high pitched and he throws his 'voice' up and down the scale and he cocks his head to the left side and raises his hackles for all the world to see and he looks evil :unlove: .. And I have made sure that when people (espeically kids) approach him and ask to touch him I stay calm and assertive (sry I love the Dog Whisperer) and don't let any of my emotions run wild so they don't rub off on him. Like last night.. I felt comfortable with the little boy attempting to pet him bc he had done so well with the mother and daughter pair. I don't know if he's trying to protect me.. protect himself.. if he's scared.. if he's mad.. I don't know.. As far as people he's been around.. My goodness.. He adores my dad, my bf Will, Will's dad, my youngest brother Jacob, my Grandaddy, my uncles.. So I know it's no problem with men.. And he's fine with women as well.. But he has bitten my younger cousins.. :embarasse And of course when they get bit they freak out and don't ever stop to consider that they should stand up to him. I think that if just once a child would get bit/snapped at and not jump away and hold their ground and tell him "NO!" very firmly and insisted that he be submissive.. I think it might help.. We have a full time trainor for our dogs at the rescue kennel where I work.. She is amazing.. I will try and speak to her today about his issues and see if she has any tips too..

Thank you so much everyone! I really needed your support.. I will pm you YorkieMum probably later on late tonight or tomorrow..

I hope things get better for you and Harley...
I hope the kid that kicked your dog was punished by a parent or I hope you said something to that disrespectful brat. I would have went nuts on someone who ever layed a hand on my dog, but that's just me. It will take a lot of patience and someone who knows how to help Harley trust kids again... Good luck and don't give up... Keep your chin up! We'll pray for you!!

I REALLY think that is where his problems stem from, that little kid. Yorkies who haven't been raised around kids fear them alot of the time. Kids move fast and are loud. The kid kicking him made Harley think that kids are dangerous and mean. Dogs don't forget things that are tramatic. He definately needs some work to trust strangers. I would definately work with a trainer first and don't forget to tell that story about the kid, I think that was key. Until you can get him to trust others more, I would be very careful about where he goes in public if you aren't willing to put a muzzle on him. I would hate for something terrible to happen.
Good luck.

I would not want an little one telling him no.
It could blow up.
I go the start them from far away.
Watch Harley body language as he is on the ground.
As soon as you see any sign of concern. Like a lip lick or a shake or raopid eye blinking or ears up and starying stop that kid in his tracks. have he/she toss a treat.
stop for the day.
MArk the distance the kid came in distance and try to get the kid closer the next time.
Keep Harely away from radom kids till he is can handle the safe ones approach.
He may never not have3 a big bubble but he can be worked on to accpet gentl kids.
Plus it is ok in my as far as I am concerned that a dog not like everyone. They just have to give you a clear signal that the person in coming is not ok and you must stop that person. Even if it is a shoulder check.
Why most our dogs like everyone. I am not saying it ok to bite I am saying it ok for them to say NO thank you.

Joy

Hatli is fitted just by making sure it is tight from the straps leading to the buckle. So when it clips togther ther is no give.
They tend to slip loose through the extra strap you pulled tight so pin it snug extra strap to the main hatli.
Also in a bad reaction or a dog blowing they can pop off so a extra line must be run from the hati wher the leash gos on to a collar or martigale or a harness.
The harness must have a D ring on the front part of the chest to clip this line to and I had to get one custom made for me.
http://www.spoiledyorkies.com/
Robin does great stuff and made it for me.
Now if the front piece that goes on the dogs nose is long a stitch van be used to pull it up the dogs nose a little it to sit low though. Just not slid aff the end.

Joy

You've gotten so much great advice here, I just wanted to offer you some hugs and support and GOOD thoughts that little Harley can get past his fear soon. :( I agree that the little kid that kicked him is key here, Kelli had problems with children because she wasn't raised around them. We had a child that we babysat for a few times who would leave Kelli alone for the most part, but would sometimes chase her with her toys and Kel would run and try to get away from her and when THAT wouldn't work, she'd nip at her. Took several times for me to make the little girl understand that Kelli didn't play that way and she couldn't be aggressive with her. It's horrible to watch them be so scared/mean. :( *hugs you* I hope that your trainer can help you and little Harley out.

Wow, hope you can get Harley to overcome this. Unfortunately, I wouldn't trust him enough around people to take him on outings any more. The liability is just too great. Your admittance that he bites doesn't eliminate the liability, that means YOU already had knowledge of the behavior. I wouldn't chance being sued or worse having a court somewhere saying he had to be destroyed :(

Good luck :)

He must get out. Social isolation will make this worse but he most be protected from practicing bad habits and he must not be put into the postions of haveing to protect himself from rude people.
He can say no thanks you I rather you not be touch and be nice about it.
Fact is in his body posture and his movements before he bite said that did not wish to be touched. It got missed by an untrained eye. My trained one when distracted, understress or not watching can miss it too.
Then that no thank you, do not touch must be respected.
Why is it we think we must let our dogs be mauled by total strangers do we like it. No nor do they, just cause you as the owner may be comfortable with ever stranger saying hi to you and patting your head does not mean your do does or should have too.
They have to be respectful and not use the teeth but I rather not have my dog touch by everyone out there. My thoughts are get your own darn dog, keep your sticky dirt hands off mine.

Joy

I couldn't agree more! All dogs need to be socialized, and the only way is to get them out in public. But we, as owners and caretakers, must be observant of their wants and needs, also. Joy has a good point. I'm not a trainer or anything,just a long time dog owner and lover, but there have been many posts on this site about clicker training and such that I would look into. And, do ask your trainer for advice. If you work with someone who is a trainer, you are already in a position to help your Harley. Take advantage of it. I also like the idea of putting yourself between Harley and whatever is scaring him (strangers, kids, etc.) to let him know you are going to take care of him. I also love the Dog Whisperer. Go ahead and be calm and assertive. But also, as Cesar says, you must be the Alpha --- you must let Harley know you are in control, and will protect him from what he is afraid of. Good luck!