Mmm don't see it the way you would see a more complex thinking species like a human or even a mammal would really understand the concept of captivity that well.

Doesn't always apply, especially to wild box turtles, because they have homing instincts (built in compass/map) but things that have been captive bred don't really know any different as it's where they were born.

As long as their needs are met, most live happy lives. Do realize for fish, reptiles and amphibians 90% probably don't make it to juvenile stages, and even less make it to adulthood... So really, for them the lack of predators, the plenty of food, correct temperatures, and proper conditions in general is like the garden of eden for them.

From my understanding is, if you never knew the outside world if you never even knew it existed it wouldn't really bother them? Because to them it's non existent? Shouldn't ever release an animal that's been in captivity for some time out into the wild, that is how animal populations become decimated by whatever illness brought with them. Have to remember that captive animals have better immunity, thus better tolerance to illness, so whatever they become more immune to, their wild counterparts could not handle. Usually wild animals are riddled with parasites, and such. I would say all wild reptiles, fish and amphibians have parasitic loads. Just they deal with it, but to add another factor on top of it would probably wipe out the half if not, whole ecosystem.

Turtles sometimes become aggressive even with each other, separation is a must in such cases. Calcium deprivation can also be diet based. As for the female turtle laying eggs, turtles sometimes lay infertile eggs. Problem for them is turtles can become egg bound(the egg is stuck) if not enough calcium is in their system and can get really ill...

Good that she's in a rescue though, they tend to screen new owners very thorough.

To be honest, I feel it's a really bad idea to buy a child a pet just to teach responsibility, unless of course the parent is willing to pick up the slack and take care of it after "Junior" gets bored... otherwise animal cruelty is bound to occur... Glad that you were well-informed parents who wanted the best in the animals interest as well.

To be honest, the whole child with turtle things is why there's a law in the US that no one shall sell any turtle with a shell length under 4 inches as a pet. Happened because parents long time ago when the turtle islands were a fad started buying them for the kids, the kids being dumb kids would put the turtles in their mouths(why? I don't know kids do plenty of "kid" things) and they would get sick with salmonella and blame it on the turtle rather than the irresponsible parent who taught a kid that an animal is a toy rather than a living being to treat with care and respect. So there passed the law. Don't hate the law though, still doesn't keep turtle out of reach out of irresponsible owners sadly.


Whether it's a dog, or a turtle, a rabbit, a fish or a hermit crab... animals should be treated with our utmost care and respect and should not be used as our tools...

I'm so sorry your precious Jilly had such rough times, and that you had to say goodbye. Reminds me so much of my Zoe, and all that she goes through. Brought tears to my eyes. I question how anyone who reads about these cases, and chooses to ignore the possible ramifications of having a dog this small AND encourages the breeding of such by seeking one out, isn't thinking at all of the dog itself. Makes my heart hurt.

Sweet little angels, our tiny girls. :(

I've spoken to the poster a few times. She's very intelligent and open to anything that might make the puppy healthy. I think she's fighting an uphill battle, but trying to do the right thing. We think Malibu, and we see dogs dressed up as an accessory. I get that suddenly we're all up in arms, especially having a bond with our yorkie. It makes us even more upset. Heck, there is a new neighbor that has a yorkie even smaller than my four pounder, and being on here? I KNOW it's wrong, and, it just looks so horrible from my educated perspective. However, that's just it. WE have these guys, WE spend time reading and doing our best. New yorkie owners are new and learning. It was only by the grace of God I didn't go with the original breeder who promised me a puppy full grown- under 4 pounds. I read up, Husband read up, and we decided not to. Chewie was unexpected. Her brown eyes met mine.. and.. I was lost. I went there to see the morkie puppies and pick one out, and to look at the yorkie-poo. I had bonded with a little guy in the pet store that was scraggly and people just left him. Husband put his foot down and we fought. I had to leave him there.
When I saw Chewie, and my heart clenched in *that* way, nothing would dissuade me. I thank God I wasn't educated at that point, because I wouldn't have my baby. She was sad. SO sad. She was sick, and she was frightened. Her litter mates were gone- both snatched up the day prior. She had been shipped and this was her second home. She had been treated like a thing. Not a living, breathing, being.
Please look at this from another perspective. This woman is taking a baby who has been bred, I know, badly, and taking CARE of her/him. She and he will give this guy a good life. That has to count for something.

Whilst I get what you're saying, the number one thing those looking for a puppy are told to NOT do is BUY from a puppy mill on the basis that you're going to take it out of its situation and give it a good home by improving its lifestyle. All that happens is that INDIVIDUAL puppy gets a great life and the mom keeps popping out puppies until she gets sick and/or dies and then her puppies, if they're lucky enough to live, are either sold to people who don't care as they've bought them to breed or they are used by the original puppy mill breeder to increase production.

I believe the poster is as intelligent as anyone else but being stubborn undermines intellect when one refuses to be open in favor of being 'right' even when wrong.

I try to back off this thread but what she's doing and the way she's going about it is WRONG and if we say anything but the truth about this we are enabling others to think they are right in THEIR situation to benefit themselves as individuals and, thus, being part of and widening the overall issue which is the support of puppy mills and all that means e.g. abused mothers, ill bred puppies, sick and dying 'stock' etc. I just can't do it no matter how nice it appears to not be. I care more about these dogs than someone's feelings. Dogs can't speak for themselves so rely on us to be their voice.

I can understand what you're saying. It's kind of you to try to understand from the other perspective. But I will have to respectfully disagree with you.

Ultimately all poorly bred dogs and all puppy mill dogs needs 'saving'. It is my very strong belief that by using the 'saving them' mentality, one would essentially be indirectly be supporting puppy mills and irresponsible breeders, no matter what one's intentions are.

It's not easy to boycott puppy mills and irresponsible breeders. It's not easy to walk away from a sad puppy who needs helping. But the only way to stop them is to create awareness and to not support them in every way possible. The puppy mill trade is about supply and demand. We should be eliminating the demand for these puppies.

It's also very important to recognize how many "breeders" source their puppies from puppy mills and put up a clean-family-home facade to make a living. Things are not always as they seem.

That's why the only right thing to do is to do proper research and buy from a responsible reputable breeder, or adopt from a rescue organization, and to always spay and neuter all pet dogs.

I'm not saying you're wrong. I have said you ladies and gents are passionate, and you very much mean well and want what's best for them. I linked her to Lady Jane's site as well just so I could show her one example understand EXACTLY why there is hostility.

This isn't like this one idiot that lives a few doors down from me- with his mixed half teacup 5 k puppy mill b.s. The guy who plunked down 5k to a backyard breeder and had a "half teacup" that ended up being TWENTY TWO POUNDS. I've argued with him, and I'll admit I've gotten nasty. I at least know where my dog has come from, and again, by the grace of God, it was NOT a backyard breeder. It could have been. Your information is wonderful. I just think in these situations, when someone is up against a significant other, it's best to just step down. She's really trying. He'll either buy them with her, or without her I'm trying very hard to point it to the positive side of things.

My additional two cents :p :

First image - for all people, men and women; but particularly for women in relationships who experience gaslighting and are afraid to speak up - it happens more often that we'd like to believe.
Second - standing up for others, such as dogs who cannot speak for themselves.

Catching up on this thread.

What really stood out to me was bolded, above. I think that's where we humans trip ourselves up - thinking that we can *think* like an animal would and then assume things about the captivity we force upon them.

We can't think like animals. So we should assume that tighter captivity for them is totally against their nature, rather than assuming it's something better for them.

An analogy: let's starve a human child of love. If the child never knew love existed - if it was non-existent to them...then should we just assume they just don't need it, want it, long for it (even if they can't define what "it" is?)....? I don't think so, personally. I think that every creature has instincts and needs that it's born with - both due to nature and nurture. Whether animal or human, severely limiting fulfillment of needs is unhealthy (mentally, physically) to that living being.

True, I get what you're saying. I just don't think -some- animals even care. Specific ones though. Specifically speaking about already sedentary animals that will literary stay in the same spot for hours, on end without any movement. Like tarantulas, pac man frogs, maybe snakes, certain toads, a few species of turtles(but still in a big enclosure).

I am not saying cram them into a tiny space either, just saying it's all relative for certain things.

Some animals don't even have that evolved of a brain to even notice it... Do you think a tarantula knows what an enclosure is?

I'd like to add an example of animals that lack an evolved understanding... Let's take crickets for instance. Crickets, can drown in a tiny pool of water even if it just covered their feet...

All of it is philosophical, and you're right one can't really be certain what goes in the mind of even the tiniest of insect... But that notion you have is essentially rid of most of the pet industry, save for dogs, cats, equines, bovines... Which not a bad idea, but some animals don't mind captivity to my understanding. A caged mouse doesn't seem anymore stressed than a wild rodent. In fact, a wild rodent is more wary than a captive bred one... many dangers are likely to fall on a wild rodent than a captive bred one.


But let's look at fish. There's plenty of forums out there for fish, some more successful and the good information they deliver. A lot will agree, that a good sized aquarium isn't really a bad thing for a fish, crustacean, and to my personal opinion some amphibians.

You realize that in the wild there are niches for these specific types of animals? You won't see a bottom feeding catfish, near the top of a lake.

You won't see a beta fish in an open river, extremely large/deep pond. Betta fish/siamese fighting fish thrive in rice paddy conditions. While a bowl isn't good for a betta, I don't think sticking them in a 300 gallon aquarium would do them much good either because they will just stick to a corner trying to find food...

It all depends on the specific animal, heck there are even fish which should never be in an aquarium of -any- size. One prime example would be migratory fish like the salmon, salt water sharks, etc.

There are things I am not opposed to seeing in a special aquarium of a larger size-- such as jellyfish(a perfectly rounded aquarium with no corners for it to get stuck in)... I am not opposed to seeing fancy goldfish in an aquarium, nor betta fish, nor certain cichlids, small fish like guppies tetras barbs etc, catfish(size dependent), african clawed frogs(my favorite aquatics), axolotls, snails, crabs(again depends), crayfish, heck even a lobster(if the right set up is made for it), because a lot of these fish like to inhabit specific niches that if fullfilled would be fine kept.


Even pondfish I don't mind in large aquariums(larger than your average large aquarium). There are people who have really big rooms, a lot of money to blow, a lot of time to spare and build really massive aquariums and by massive, I don't mean what you would think is massive-- I do mean massive as in the kind you would see belong in those "aquarium"(the place)...

A lot of those who keep such large aquariums have a lot of knowledge on what they're doing because they either study it as a major or they study it on their spare time by doing as much research as possible.


If the space is right, then for me it's okay to keep it- but again highly dependent on whether it's a migratory species, or something that just roams a lot....

I had these things called african clawed frogs, small little buggers and I put up 6 of them in a 125 gallon aquarium.... and they mostly used one portion of the aquarium and occasionally ventured to the other.

Their needs were more than exceeded. They are still alive with a friend(in the same enclosure and care), because I had them when I was younger in a different place.

My opinion is that if their needs are more than just met, and they are kept clean, safe, parasite free, acting normal as they would in the wild its okay then. It's essentially a haven for some of them.


But maybe I am wrong, who knows.

My little Ava is being shipped from Tx into Denver international with a Puppy Nanny. I would have made the drive if that option was not available. The airline cargo staff has to wear ear protection and if a dog has hearing so much more sensitive than ours and for such a tiny thing I just couldn't imagine it. So she will be flying all the way with her nanny. If I can afford a puppy I can afford the extra for the best care and protection.

Hi everyone, I guess its time to give an update.

We have been Skyping with the new puppy every couple days and checking in on her. She's been doing great. We think we might name her Molly Boo (after Malibu) or Sugar, but we want to see her personality first and what fits her best. I've been talking with a friend in the military there and he is going to take her to the vet for us in two weeks. We decided to have her stay there longer to make sure that all of her vet checks go ok. We got the address to her location and now I'm searching for vets nearby.

We weren't able to find a puppy nanny and me traveling to Korea still seems to be a sore topic. Luckily the friend we have taking her to the vet is moving to Ohio this summer to get his PhD and he volunteered to fly with her if we paid for his flight to the states. It kind of works out for both of us because he will get to go look at housing before his actual move. We also have a mutual friend whose girlfriend is stationed there and she volunteered to fly with Molly to LAX if we paid for her flight here, and that might be cheaper for us.

I did end up finding a boy we may buy. He's from a breeder I contacted a while back who didn't have any pups available at the time but she emailed a few days ago saying she had a boy that was born. She sent photos and he's only two weeks old, so we will be waiting about four months or so before we can pick him up. We asked the breeder if we can fly out in the next two weeks to meet with her and the pup and we're waiting for a response. I won't name the breeder or their location on here, but I found her through this forum and she had positive things written about her from members who have met her so she's on the top of my list for our pup. Her pup is about $4,500 so he's just slightly under what we paid for Molly Boo.


We are set up for Molly's arrival but I'm having some difficulty choosing a bed for her. I originally wanted to build her a little tee-pee with a round bed inside but I'm not sure if little dogs like that sort of thing and if it would be warm enough. I built one for my aunt's cats and they never leave it, but cat's love anything they can hide in so that doesn't tell me much. I found a snuggle wrap on Etsy that looks comfy, and I found a bed in TJMaxx for only $10 that seems pretty similar. Do you think this kind of bed would be a good idea? It looks like a bed with a blanket on top which seems really cozy to me, but I don't know if little dogs would bother trying to snuggle inside of it. My last dog was a s**tzu-poodle and he just liked the plain old little dog beds with no top and my german shepherd used to steal it and try to squeeze into a ball on top of it. Thoughts?

Hi! Are you looking to get a breeding pair?

No, I just prefer males. The girl we bought will be way too small to ever have pups, she would probably die if she got pregnant. I'm open to getting another girl if that's what we find, but I think it would be cute to have one of each.

I don't know...does it...? Does a human baby know what love is...? No. Does the baby still need it to thrive..? Generally speaking, yes. I don't think it's much different with respect to other creatures. Ya know what I mean? It doesn't matter what they "know" (and btw, this "knowing" is a human trait you're projecting onto the spider, we can't expect a spider to "know" in the way that our species does).

Who knows, really? Certainly not us. That's what I'm really saying here. Sometimes we humans can be species-centric, at the expense of other creatures. I merely think it's important to be honest/open and very careful about any assumptions we make about other living beings.

It's all really interesting to me - I totally do get what you're saying, I just see it a bit differently perhaps. I like that you enjoy discussing this kind of thing though :):):)!

I also love how the discussion is going into a deeper realm of nature versus mankind. It is interesting isn't it, how on one hand there's the evolved human who has studied life on this planet, trying to understand everything; and then on the other hand, there's nature and how things are just as it is.

It's true, that if an animal has always been kept captive, say indoors (for my own ease of mind, let's say not in a cage its entire life), they'd never know any better about the outside world. But that could also be said about human beings, no? Say for example, those children who were kidnapped and unnaturally conditioned by the kidnapper who told them 'the outside world is dangerous' (I know, I've been watching too much TV) and they need to stay indoors for their own safety. But just like animals, for us humans it's our natural instinct to want to explore the natural outdoors. It gives us all a sense of pleasure and happiness.

But mankind, has changed it all. We've domesticated animals. We've determined that some living beings 'feel no pain' or 'know' certain things. We've developed a science to prove (and disprove) such things. Who's to say what's right or wrong. But, I do feel that with each change, we really need to think things through and fight for what seems to be right or wrong.

When we domesticated dogs and cats, as long as we respect their life and their existence and they're happy and healthy, it actually became a nice loving mutual relationship. Knowing that dogs are our friends, it's so cruel to learn that horrible people keep dogs in captive, torturing them, eating them, breeding them, it's just so wrong. When those unethical people are now breeding tiny 3lb dogs, using c-section surgeries to produce smaller puppies, risking the mommy dog's lives' and creating unhealthy, unnatural deformed-looking puppies with internal organs the size of a pea that aren't functional, just to satisfy the teacup trend, it's SO wrong.

Sadly, we humans are terribly, overly selfish. Just as the way we treat the planet, destroying all the natural resources, creating pollution by supporting large manufacturers and those countries that create cheaper product. The fact that people cannot breathe in China is a HUGE sign we're doing something wrong. The fact that most of the population of this planet has no fresh water is a sign we're doing something wrong. None of it is natural.

Isn't it ironic how as the smartest beings on the planet, we're the ones destroying it? Or maybe, that is also part of our 'nature'. :confused:

Your whole post was so great - but I had to bold / point-out a couple things...bravo! Totally agree. We are such species-centrists, causing us our own demise - it's so ironic really!

Late reply, sorry about that.


Anyways, you're right it is projecting. There is no way to know if the tarantula likes it or not.

However, from behavioral observation one can assume it's adequate or not. Unlike humans, animals are easy to understand if they like or dislike something- or if they happen to not be happy somewhere.

My friends tarantula, like most of her kind sit there and do nothing- conserving energy. Grooming itself occasionally, eating insects whenever. She has a larger than normal enclosure. She is a rosy tarantula(a small docile species), she is taken out often to "roam". She seems quite content from her behavior. I feel as if personality is a thing reserved for more complex creatures- I maybe wrong, but what I am trying to say if all of them act the same way one can use that as a guide line for their husbandry care.

She also has a rabbit she rescued from her parking lot(she lives in apartments) it's a netherland dwarf. The rabbit has a big cage, and spends most of the time in it when she's not around- but anytime she is around she leaves the cage door open and he has free room of the "house".

He will play, frolic, jump(popcorn), and eat for most of that time he's out. But after a few hours of play he goes back to his cage on his own and sleeps.

So from that one could say there are examples where some animals may think of their cages as a home/safe zone.


Now there are animals that maybe so small and yet would never truly be happy in an enclosure. Example of that is the bog turtle-- a very rare and endangered small species of turtle that basically likes to roam.

You may be right, it maybe the case that no animal is okay with being caged- even the rabbit, or her tarantula.


But consider that some animals maybe better suited for captivity. For example, a spider rarely ever leaves their nest/corner(well not counting wolf spiders, or huntsmen spiders or species like that) do you think if the nest was moved inside an enclosure with more than enough space to move from the nest and explore would be bad?


I might have been projecting, but you yourself are projecting your emotions onto them as neither you nor I can 100% know what that animal is even thinking.

P.s. be aware that for a lot of animals in captivity their chances of survival outside of captivity is a lot less than one in captivity.. plus for the most part captivity increases their lifespan. A lion in a zoo probably lives significantly longer lives than one in the wild.

Intelligence and greed never go hand in hand.

As for the arguments that dog is happier in captivity than in the wild. That's projecting, and it's relative. A dog derived from the wolf. Wolves are pack animals, our "love" is not the same as "theirs". Why do I say this? Because really who are we to say what they feel exactly? My point is, saying it's okay to keep dogs/cats and things of the like but not something like say a fish is being a bit biased. I guess we're all biased I will admit.

While you may not think it, a house to a dog is essentially a cage- no way out unless we allow it. We don't allow our dogs to roam free outside of their "cages" without supervision- so technically a dog isn't that different from a fish. As both have limited freedom.

A cage only sounds bad because we associate a cage with things like jail, or dogs being stuffed into a small crate all day, or a bird in a small cage.


For their safety we keep our dogs "caged", and for our benefit.


You went on to mention 3lb dogs are unnatural, which you know is true. However domestication is in itself "unnatural", it messes with "natural selection".

Did you know some species of ants participate in "domestication"? They keep aphids alive, feed them, protect them in exchange for their sugary concoction they produce which is harvested by the ants. The aphids are not allowed to the areas they are kept (usually on a plant), their wings are chewed off but the aphids stay without any problem and the ants in exchange protect them from predators.

The aphid doesn't seem to have a problem, neither does the ant.

So do you think that a cow does either? (well a dairy cow- not one being sent to the slaughter). Does the rancher?

What about dogs? We exchange our services for their affections, but when and where do we draw the line then?


The point I am trying to make is that there is no straight path, there are many paths. Some darker than the others, it is up to us to see which is appropriate and which isn't.

I can't 100% say that keeping a fish in an aquarium is a good thing because they are kept safe, healthy and usually free of predators. Their offsprings are likelier to make it to adulthood than their wild counterparts.


Domestication is a funny thing. People say it has something to do with evolution- but you go on telling that to the ants who keep the aphids which weren't evolved for that.

Humans maybe intelligent, but they can sometimes be irrational, blind sighted, ignorant, and over all belligerent.


As for those who keep dogs for food in other countries. I've come to realize, that yes what they do is mostly unacceptable. The torture, cramped spaces, animals being treated as objects.

However a dog being used as a source of food isn't really something you, or I have any say in if it's bad or good.

Because you wanna know something? To the hindu the cow (and any cow related animal I think) is a very sacred animal. To them, you do not eat, molest(bother/annoy), torture it.

Currently in many parts of india there has been ongoing riots, and overzealous groups of hindus who have been killing people transporting cows to the slaughter. In their words, the cow is a hindu woman or something like that.

Yet we eat cows(don't deny it, unless you're 100% vegetarian or hindu you eat cow or have eaten cows before), should we be punished for what the hindus believe is a crime and a religious sacrilege?

What about those from some asian countries that raise dogs or cats for their meat? Should they be punished as well? But if they're punished for that, shouldn't we be punished for doing the same to other animals?


What about those in poor south american countries where poverty is so high, that the lack of food is abundant-- in those countries people resort to eating dogs, cats, and whatever animal they can find. To them it's not a matter if it's cute or sad. It's a matter of life and death. Do those get punished as well for simply trying to live the next day?


There is no set right, or wrong. To us eating a dog, or cat is sacrilege (sort of), to the hindu eating beef is sacrilege, to the jews and the muslims I believe eating pork is sacrilege. (Maybe wrong about the last two -- I don't know much about them just from what I recall).

What is right and wrong to me could be opposite to your neighbor.

See it's all relative. There is no exact "right" or "Wrong" only what we make of it, and what each of us do with it.

For some "wrong" is necessary and is "right".

Morality is a tricky thing you see, and a slippery slope.

It's true, we are destroying our planet-- but you know there's other animals that do that too placed in the wrong environment.


The cane toad(one of my favorite amphibians mostly because of it's bold attitude), is actually a rather dangerous invasive species which is destroying certain habitats/environments. I think in Australia there is a cane toad problem. Same with south US... But then again these were introduced by people-- but there are other animals that just drifted from place to place without our help.

Well I have my first bad news...

The breeder who has the little boy we were going to buy just told me he's spoken for, which is really strange and disappointing because I sent an email almost two weeks ago saying we wanted him and would fly out to meet with her and see him. I never got a response back and tonight when I asked how he was doing she said he was taken. I have a feeling that she didn't want us to fly out and see her kennel and if that's the case I'm happy with passing and not giving her our money. I'm so upset and we feel so let down. We were both so excited to have found what we thought was a good kennel here and to get a little boy. I'd already named him Scuderia Veloce which translates loosely to "fast racing team" in Italian. This was going to be his "thoroughbred" name like the horses get, but his daily nickname was going to be Scooter.

So, I'm back on the market and looking for a little boy. We had a children's animal fair here over the weekend and there was a puppy petting pen and inside was a cute little yorkie boy. He looked about a year or two old and had a great face and all of the dogs were adoptable. I passed his information along to my friend looking to get a yorkie pal for her Bichon rescue she just got but if she doesn't take him I think I'll ask for a meeting with him.

Our little Korean girl goes to our private vet appointment tomorrow night (Thursday in Korea) and I'm hoping for good news. If all goes well she will be flying on the 25th. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that she's perfectly healthy and can come home. If we end up not being able to get her too I think I'd be pretty devastated.

I personally would stay away from Kennels and go with breeders who breed in their home. Hope to hear an update on how the vet appointment goes.

I wish you good luck in whatever you end up getting; but do realize you were forewarned about the problems with that plan... and that you are potentially lining the pockets of puppy mills abroad...

That and I can see so many things going wrong, like if they claim it's healthy and all and the vet says it is-- but it comes to your house and the facts are different... realize you won't be able to do much about it and even if you could you would be spending a lot more trying to just keep it alive.


Who knows though? Perhaps you will get really lucky and get a good tempered, and healthy dog with no genetic issues...


I do wish you luck regardless, and good health to your upcoming puppy.


---

As an alternative option, do know that even good breeders who aim to breed dogs at a standard occasionally get relatively smaller dogs every so often as it's not something you can 100% prevent...

The difference between that dog and the other is-- one from a good breeder will likelier have less health issues and less genetic issues.

It's all a gamble though, so I wish you good luck.

To clarify, the male puppy was coming from a breeder, not a kennel. I worked around police dogs for years and where they are kept is called a kennel, so it's just something I'm used to saying. This breeder breeds out of her home, but I think that's why she gave away the boy we wanted, she might not have wanted us to see her home.

In better news, our Korean girl is totally healthy! She just got done at her vet check up and I watched it on video chat so I could hear what was going on. She was happy and playful and wanted to explore the vets office. I attached a couple photos of the visit but some are blurry from screenshotting the video. She will be flying in to San Francisco on the 25th and we will be staying at our house there that week to wait for her and let her relax before bringing her back to LA. I'll post some photos once we have her with us.

Beautiful dog, but if you do decide to get her, please at least make sure to get her checked up in a trusted vet the same week you get her- the sooner the better.

Have them run tests on her, explain to the vet where you got it from. Dogs that age still have a weak immune system imho.

Good luck tho.

Hi, can I ask, how you found this breeder? Do they have a website. If yes, can you post the link?

Just FYI, Korea is THE #1 PUPPY MILL producer & they breed tiny tiny dogs. That's just the culture there & in Asia (BTW, I'm Korean), they love tiny dogs because majority live in small apartments. Many puppy mills have fancy websites...

Were you able to Skype & see the parents on site? It's just so hard to determine w/out actually visiting the breeder's home. Please be very careful moving forward.

I wonder how old this puppy from Korea will be. According to the CDC,

"Puppies must not be vaccinated against rabies before 3 months of age, so the youngest that a puppy can be imported into the United States is 4 months of age. ... Dogs that have never been vaccinated against rabies must be vaccinated at least 30 days prior to arrival. "

https://www.cdc.gov/importation/brin...ates/dogs.html

With the exception that

"Unvaccinated dogs may be imported without proof of rabies vaccination if they have lived in a country that is considered free of rabies for a minimum of 6 months or since birth."

And it doesn't look like Korea is considered a rabies-free country.
https://www.cdc.gov/importation/rabi...countries.html

This entire thing is looking a litte sideways to me.

The OP said (loosely quoted) These puppies are going to be born anyway. We can't stop the breeders of tiny puppies in Korea. Well this is just backwards! Backyard breeding, puppy mills, and tiny Korean puppies continue to be born because people continue to support it by purchasing the puppies. It's simple economics: supply and demand. And it's so very sad. :(

Adopt! Don't shop!

First off, let me just say I agree with most of what you said. But you gotta realize that the person simply doesn't give a (insert whatever word you want) about what we think, or the facts, or if she's even contributing to such a tragic thing.

Honestly, no amount of us telling them that doing something is rather irrational, ill-advised, and whatever else you want to add to it won't do anything at all. Just like you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make the horse drink.

Or basically, how a donkey can be stubborn and stay in one spot all day and trying to push it someplace else will result in you getting kicked by it.

I honestly don't think anything will change their mind... but when whatever happens go awry and they come back here for consolation; well you can now just be like "well we told you so quite a lot, pages worth of us advising against it and you didn't listen so you have yourself to blame for being scammed/played for a fool".

I mean I doubt we'd even have to mention it because they probably already know it. I am just saying there really is no point in continuing when it's been made very clear that they are well aware of the situation, they're aware they're contributing to puppy mills and animal cruelty, they're aware that the animal will most likely end up sick(and possibly dying an early painful death), they just do not care. Because just like those people who treat dogs like accessories to go in their purses-- to them they're just replaceable.

The first thing they said basically is enough to believe that they want to replace their other dog because they can't keep it... That enough is enough to realize that they wont cease their plans.

They came here already knowing what was going on, they came here with a plan already in mind. We didn't give the plan for them, they just wanted to be heard for whatever reason.


You can keep trying to advise them but all it will do is annoy them even further and when whatever happens goes awry, they probably won't be back to ask for advice. Though even if they got advice they may not even actually take it. But my point is, nothing we say or show them will have any effect on it what so ever.


The only thing that I disagree is the "adopt don't shop" mentality. I don't think people who buy their dogs should feel ashamed for buying instead of adopting. People have different needs, and different views on that.

I personally think adopting is a nice thing-- but it's not for everyone. When you adopt it's essentially a risky gamble and regardless of what anyone says. Purchasing a dog from a GOOD breeder, who does thing by the book(figurative speech), never breeds bad genes, only breeds to keep the breed alive and never simply for just profit. A breeder who actually gives a damn about their dogs and doesn't treat them like tools for profit. Should yield a higher chance of success.

It's all statistics. You can still get a bad pick from the litter, but the likelihood of that is really low compared to adopting which the dog probably has unknown origins which means they could be ill-bred, from a puppy mill and have a ton of underlying issues that the people caring for them don't even know about...

If you go to a rescue(foster home) the chances of knowing more about the dog is significantly higher than going to a pound... but it's still sort of a gamble- even with an older dog.