Perfectly said Joan!!!!

I just got in from milking my cows and the only thing I want to say a repeat of what I said previously:

We only heard one side of this story. Maybe it is true that Dee said the pup didn't hike his leg....maybe it isn't true. I don't know...what I DO know is that the expectations of this buyer in my opinion were out of touch with reality when dealing with a live animal. Surely if you do your research on this forum as she says she has, she would know that housebreaking can be a challenge. Surely she knows about such things as belly bands. Surely she and the breeder know that nothing in life is ever perfect and subject to change. I must say again, that IF Sharon's story is true, I am astounded that any breeder would give her a pup. You could NEVER guarantee such a thing....there may have been scents that made him mark in her home...or the stress alone may have caused it...among other issues. I am also quite frankly disgusted that the poor thing was not even given a lick of a chance. THAT is why I suggested a stuffed animal. Again, dogs PEE and dogs POOP...and NO I don't sit in it. LOL There are such things as soap and water...belly bands and diapers. Mops..and the like.

Every single episode with Sharon and breeders if you go back has been just that...an episode. I am honestly utterly astounded that a breeder who seems to be here only to sell pups would have sold her one after all the stories posted here....I personally would be afraid of the failure which clearly it was...a failure...for the poor pup.

I don't know how in the world she managed to keep a pup with parvo or giardia or whatEVER it was. Which brings up another issue...any chance there are scents in that home? Is that pup spayed? I honestly don't know, but certainly brings up another possible reason for marking.

As for him having a home...well, someone apparently messaged Ann to say he is with them...but even that has me wondering. I have a feeling .. call it that...just a feeling that something is amiss on that as well. Call me a mistrustful person of all things internet, especially with breeders who lurk and seem to sell to just anyone with the money they want. I am quite sure Dee wants to get out of this mess unscathed so she can continue to sell pups in the YT shadows is my guess. :rolleyes:

ladyjane, Ann asked us to stop our insulting, and after her message, you have still sent about 6 additional insulting messages. Why don't you go find something better to do?

I am not sending any messages nor am I insulting anyone.

But, you are right...the farm animals are hungry. Best be taking care of them.

By the way, Ann, are you SURE that Einstein was bought by someone on this list? I am 'wondering' if Dee got a friend to post that she bought Levi, just so she would not be badgered to give him to ladyjane to sell. She has lied to me about Einstein, and refuses to pay me back, so she is not an honest person. I would like to see proof that he is now in a good home, so I can stop worrying about him.

Dee emailed me many times yesterday, as a result of all these messages posted here. I told her that she neglected to tell me that she sold Einstein, but now that I know she did, she owes me $550. for the airfare that she said she would repay as soon as she sold him. She now says that it was not IN WRITING, so she does not have to pay it. I told her that all of our agreements in regards to Einstein were by email, and any agreement in email is an agreement that has to be upheld. She replied, (quote) "It is not going to happen."

Does AKC take complaints about breeders like this? She essentially "stole" Einstein from me, because she took him back and refuses to pay me for him.

That makes three people now that have "bought" Einstein, for a total of $4,500.
I wonder if she paid Rita back, or whether she is keeping that money also???

Hope all the cows, sheep, goats and pigs have all been well fed lol

I have followed the sharonsnowbird’s plight from her very first post. What that gal went through JUST to get a puppy was unbelievable.
I have to assume this one year old dog was held back because he showed qualities of showing, I have to assume, somewhere down the road as he grew show quality was not there. We all know if you show a dog they cannot be spayed or neutered, so this little guy lived the life of a male dog, doing what male dogs do. If you remember Sharon’s opening thread, Einstein belongs to Kathy from Great Scotts Biewers located in Seattle Wa. For some reason Kathy turned this pup over to another breeder by the name of Bobbi, I believe she is located in Mo. to HELP in the selling of this dog. Sharon somehow got in touch with the Mo. Breeder Bobbi, when Sharon ask if this one year old pup was a leg lifter Bobbi would not answer, so to me a no reply was a YES he did, so Sharon did not by him. Again, for whatever reason Kathy thought sending this puppy to Dee located in Ca. would have a better chance of being sold, so Einstein was shipped off to Dee. Sharon and Dee some how got together, Einstein was offered to Sharon, Sharon did not know this was the Mo. dog that belonged to Kathy from Great Scotts Biewers that was that was offered to her by Bobbi until conversation started between Sharon and Dee, when Sharon discovered it was the same leg hiking dog Sharon told Dee she was not interested. Dee told Sharon in the time she had Einstein she did not SEE him lift his leg and he was pad trained, Dee was also having him neutered to be sold as a PET only. Sharon was having her little girl Lacy spayed, her pup needed a 2 week recuperation. Sharon asked Dee in the next two weeks would she closely monitor Einstein to make sure he was not lifting his leg, at that time Sharon told Dee, she would buy him on the condition if he WAS a leg hiker she would return him, Dee agreed to this. The two weeks passed, Dee told Sharon she watched Einstein and NO, he had not lifted his leg. Einstein was living with Dee who has her own dogs living in the house also. Believing Dee that Einstein was not a leg hiker, Sharon flew to Ca. to buy the pup. When Sharon got Einstein home he started immediately hiking, peeing, marking, matters not what it was, peeing or marking, he was still hiking his leg on everything. YES I agree with if a dog smells where another dog has peed he will pee there, Lacy being a baby was in the pad training stage and had had accidents BEFORE Einstein arrived, Lacy was pad trained when Einstein arrived, and if there were pee smells that only a dog could smell it would have been on the FLOOR, not on kitchen cabinet doors, sofa’s, the sides of Lacy’s beds. Lacy certainly did not HIKE her leg to pee UP on kitchen cabinets, sofas, sides of her beds. It was Sharon’s CHOICE to have a male dog that did not hike it’s leg. Had Sharon gotten a 13 week old male she would have gotten him neutered before leg hiking began, and would not have had this issue. She ONLY got Einstein because she was assured he DID NOT HIKE HIS LEG. Einstein was neutered sometime around Feb. 1st because Sharon was picking him up on Valentine day Feb.14th. When Sharon saw the leg hiking she got in touch with Dee immediately, I don’t know if it was the first night or the next day, She told Dee he was hiking his leg all over and Dee needed to come and get him. Sharon kept him in a xpen or iris pen which ever, but did keep him confined with pee pads in the pen, he was hiking and peeing through the pen. Einstein WAS a leg hiker. Sharon DID NOT KEEP HIM FOR 5 DAYS TRYING TO CORRECT THIS ISSUE, Sharon had him 5 days BECAUSE that’s when Dee was coming to pick him up. Sharon wanted this baby, she called her vet to see if this leg hiking could be corrected, her vet told her no, it’s almost impossible to correct once they are used to it. I am NOT BASHING Dee, BUT, she was wrong to sell this pup to someone that made it very clear to her she DID NOT WANT A MALE THAT HIKED IT’S LEG, Dee made a verbal agreement she WOULD take Einstein back if he hiked his leg. I have to ASSUME Dee was hoping Sharon would fall in love with Einstein and would deal with the leg hiking, I believe Dee took that chance and it back fired. Sharon is NOT AT FAULT here, the fault lies with Dee, all she wanted was to place this dog. it was not fair to this poor dog, and not fair to Sharon who did love this little guy, then had to give him back.
My heart bleeds for this poor little dog that has gone to so many homes, my concern is what this will do to him mentally, emotionally, will he lose his confidence, will he lose trust in ppl, will he always think a new home is just a temporary stop over and he will be shipped out to another home. I PRAY there really is a forever home he is going to. This baby needs love and to feel secure that he will not be tossed away again.
IMO, there is NO OTHER SIDE to this story. An agreement was made, and has been fore filled. Sharon DID NOT AGREE to buy a dog that hiked it’s leg and agreed to TRY to work on that issue through training, gave the dog 5 days to shape up, he did not and got shipped out, that WAS NOT THE AGREEMENT. Sharon is NOT at FAULT here.
What really baffles me is why did Dee come on this thread to say “sorry things did not work out”, that could have been done with a phone call, email even a PM on YT, Sharon did not post a single thing on her thread about having to give the dog back. IMO sound likes Dee was trying to instigate things on this thread, just MO. This was a private transaction and Dee should have kept it that way PRIVATE. But she choose to put it out here on this thread, WHY?
The little girl Sharon bought had giardia, the puppy came to her that way. why would you throw in the word PARVO. And how did she manage the Giardia? with meds, like all illnesses are treated, and lots of bleach for clean ups..
So to re-cap….Lacy was spayed….Einstein was neutered a few weeks before Sharon got him, Lacy was fully pad trained, Lacy did not hike her leg to pee on furniture, Sharon bought a dog that she was told was NOT a leg hiker, Sharon DID NOT BUY THIS DOG knowing he lifted his leg on everything, she did NOT AGREE to training out the hiking of leg, gave it 5 days, then said I don’t want him, I cannot train him to not lift his leg. The agreement was Sharon would return him if he indeed was a leg hiker, and Dee agreed to this. What other side to this story could there be?

Whoops, I didn't know Sharon was responding while I was typing up this bible.

There are ALWAYS two sides to a story. ALWAYS

I won't defend either party here. Nothing but a cluster and, as I said from the start, Einstein is the only loser in the whole mess.

Reposting this....not sure where anyone sees where the person who messaged Ann paid for Einstein. Not saying he/she didn't....but it was NOT written unless I missed something???

Yeah....bible indeed. LOL I didn't read it all because I have to get out and run errands. Bottom line though, is that no matter how you feel, there still is always another side to a story. I don't have the blind faith that you do in this situation.

You should read the entire bible, perhaps you will get a better understanding as to why Sharon got this pup and returned him. Yeah there are always 2 sides, one that is truthful and one that is a lie, then ppl have to decide who and what to believe.
This should have stayed private between Dee and Sharon, NOT on YT thread. Dee decided to make it public knowing all this would come about. SHAME ON YOU DEE. Sorry but I am all about the dog, his well being, his security, and someone that will love and adore him.

Bible
 

Why did you have to relate the story and not the OP? We only have her word for what happened and there are always two sides to every story. If I remember whenever the OP was interested in a pup there was always drama with the breeder! Also the OP said she kept the dog 5 days as that is when Dee was to pick up the dog. If the bible story is true then Dee was very unwise to make such a promise, but if not then her reputation is being dragged through the cow dung. I don't know what to think????
As for Dee, if I remember correctly some time ago she offered to give one of her pups to a YTer who had problems with a YORKIE breeder. So she can't be all bad!

What a sad sad story for Einstein. I totally would have wanted to keep him! Took me a while to read through all the posts. Without trying to step on anyone's toes, here are my two tiny cents...

I think...
It's true there's always two sides to a story. It's also true that no breeder should ever ever guarantee that a puppy is house broken. It's just impossible to guarantee (and impossible to believe)! But, if it's true that the OP wanted a dog who didn't hike the leg and was for whatever reason was guaranteed, that's not very nice of the breeder either. Unfortunately, it's been a lose-lose situation. Especially for Einstein. :( I was empathizing what the poor little guy must have gone through and got a little teary...sooo unfair for him. I sincerely hope he's with a very loving family now. :)

Regardless though for what it's worth, when I first got Scottie he squatted as a puppy and relieved himself all in one go. I thought I totally lucked out (just like how he never barked initially lol), but he eventually started hiking up his leg and marking throughout our walks. Now, even though Scottie is pretty much fully outdoor potty trained (after a lot of hard work and patience on our part) and has never marked in my home (but has had accidents), when he goes to other people's homes, he still intentionally marks furniture, if given free-reign. It's bad boy on his part for being 'such a dog', but it's bad mom on my part for giving free-reign in a foreign place in the first place! :p

As for the drama and the 'she said' then 'she said', let's all make peace. We've all 'peed' on the issue. Let's walk away now :)

If you are all about Einstein how can you possibly sit here and say that the only person who is telling the truth is Sharon. You can buy it, I don't.

The only thing I "might" say shame on Dee for is selling to someone who was more concerned about peeing than it seems anything. What does it matter if he lifts his leg or squats? Pee is pee...and she is talking about floors being saved; so squatting would be hitting her floors. Also, what about belly bands? The whole thing is ridiculous.

This is so telling:

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/gen...oy-biewer.html

And, let us remember, that ALL Dee said was she was sorry it didn't work out.

I think you are really stepping over a line in calling the breeder a liar.

As for people deciding who and what to believe...I believe just what Sharon said and I believe that, because of what she said, she really should not get another live pup. That's my story and I am sticking to it. That is not disrespectful...not. at. all. It is my honest assessment after reading her words.

Yep, yep and yep.

I didn't relate the OP's story, I was responding to ladyjane's response to my post, to clarify Sharon did not take this dog knowing he was a leg hiker. ladyjane wrote ON MY POST she didn't know if Sharon's dog was spayed or if Einstein was neutered, so I responded to that.
Look, I am concerned only for this dog, this she said he said should not be. This was a private transaction between 2 ppl, neither buyer nor seller came on YT to announce I am selling a dog to Sharon, nor did Sharon come on saying she was buying this dog from Dee, the sale of this dog was private, the sale going down should have been kept private, it was not, now what do we have going on ? Disputes, IMO just what Dee wanted, why else come on this thread with "sorry it didn't work out".
As far as Sharon having what you call "drama" with breeders, did you read what this woman went through? paid the breeder for a brother and sister, the girl puppy DIED, the boy puppy was at the vet's on DEATHS DOOR STEP, the breeder never contacted Sharon about this. If Sharon had not contacted the breeder the night before she was to fly to Wa. to pick them up to see what kind of food they were eating she would not have known one died and the other was at the vet fighting for his life. The breeder was going to let Sharon fly to Wa. the breeder was going to give her 2 other dogs without Sharon's approval. And this you call drama? Why does all this have to be dragged up is beyond me. This poor lady had just lost her beloved little girl that was only 6 yo, all she wanted was a puppy, a baby to make her life whole again and went through emotional hell before she finally got one and it is refereed to as drama. Yes there is always two sides to every story, I doubt the other side will ever be told, and frankly I myself would not be interested. Einstein should never have been sold to anyone that insisted they did not want a dog if he hiked his leg. All this rehashing does not resolve anything. All I care about is Einstein finding his forever home.

OK...so what have you done for Einstein?

Sorry, but so far all I have seen is you speaking for someone else rather than letting her answer her questions. You even posted earlier that you didn't know she had responded lending me to think that you would not have posted if you knew she was. Not exactly sure why you are her mouthpiece but I would caution you that what looks one way on the internet is often no where near what reality is.

If Sharon wanted her purchase of a pup private, why did she advertise on YT that she wanted one? A male that does not hike his leg....I am still shaking my head over that one.

I don't know why Dee sold that pup to Sharon and I don't know why she posted here. She hasn't said and I am not going to guess as you have. ALL I know is that Sharon has had many issues with breeders and I did defend her on that one issue....but I am starting to see her as a common denominator. It just cannot be that every breeder she is in touch with is the problem and never her....I mean, I suppose it could be; but I think that chance at this point is remote.

She came on here to trash the breeder and, while I don't know that I am necessarily impressed with this breeder, I am hard pressed to take just Sharon's word on this.

Thank you for this thread, yep, Sharon put it right out there, what her preference was. I see nothing wrong in her request.
All I can say is, my little boy must be black and blue from all the hugging and kisses I have given him in the last 24 hours for being the perfect little boy with no leg hiking in or out of the house. I am so blessed with my little rescue. THANK YOU Dr. Karen.

Of course you don't.....you don't place yorkies so you would not understand.

I can tell you that she would NEVER have gotten a response from me to that request and I would pray that most breeders would also walk away. Anyone that concerned about dog pee is a huge concern in terms of long term placement of a dog. I have been doing rescue for a long time and I can tell you that post had a huge red flag waving.

I have mentioned this before, but let me reiterate: male and female dogs all pee...some boys squat and some lift their legs when they pee...same goes for the females...some females squat and some lift their legs when they pee.

Aside from the fact that a poor little pup has been through hell and back, this is one of the silliest things I have ever encountered on YT. I have NEVER in all my years had a potential adopter ask me how a dog pees...whether by hiking or squatting.

Now, I have had people ask about whether or not they were housebroken....and as long as it is a reasonable type question, that is easily answered. No dog is 100% guaranteed to be housebroken. There are so many different stimuli in different homes. I would never EVER place a pup in a home with someone not willing to make a commitment to properly train a pup...even IF they are little angels in the home they are coming from, they can often change in a new environment. I want people who are totally 100% committed to the health and welfare and happiness of the pup. These precious beings are what we make them.

Aside from all of the above, my guess is Sharon did not want a dog that "marks". Whether a dog hikes or squats does not tell you if he/she is a marker. She also clearly indicated she wanted nothing to do with training. :(

What can I do for Einstein but PRAY he finds a proper home, I wish there was something more I could do for the poor baby.
I am NOT speaking for the OP, you quoted my post, wrote you didn't know if dogs were spayed or neutered, it's on my post so I answered you, I don't see that as speaking for the OP, lol, I am by no means anyone's "mouthpiece". You posted my QUOTE, and I answered it at the same time Sharon was responding to you about Ann's request for all to take a deep breath. I am not saying Sharon wanted any sale of a puppy to be private, what I said was, the sale between Dee and Sharon was a private transaction and should have been kept that way. It really doesn't matter what I say, it gets twisted around anyway.
I know all about what you see on the internet is not necessarily the real McCoy. As I see it at this point is.....it is what it is, Thank you Dee for sparking up YT, it's been a longgggg time since feathers have been ruffled lol and opinions have been challenged. We all have our own opinions and thoughts on this thread, and they will not be changed. Lets just agree to disagree and just move on.

You say you are not her "mouthpiece" yet if you read the above, it looks to me like you would not have posted your "bible" if you had known she was responding. The above comment was telling...and is why I said what I said...you have been speaking for her all day long...AND trashing a breeder by calling her a liar when I seriously doubt you heard her or saw her write any lies. :rolleyes:

Seriously. Most people can see that you (ladyjane) are like a dog on a bone to almost ANYTHING that Sharon posts. You don't care for her. It's abundantly clear. We get it. Got it. Thank you.

It's been nice around here lately. I wish it would have stayed like it was.

Yes, this is correct to a point, the purchase of Einstein was on the condition if he was a leg hiker he would have to be returned, the sale was not made with Sharon saying ok I'll buy this leg hiking dog and try to break this habit, but if I cannot do that in several days then I will return him.That is not how this sale went. Dee should have never sold that dog knowing how Sharon felt. Sharon is not the one at fault as I see it. And I am not speaking on behalf of Sharon, she can do that herself if she wants. You keep hammering on Sharon not wanting a leg hiking dog, I don't want one either, that is why I always had females. My boy was a gift to me from my vet, I took a chance with him and am so very grateful that I did, he is a perfect boy, I am so blessed. I could never do rescues and re-homing as you do, and bless you for it, me, I would end up keeping them all, once I care for and bond with a dog it's mine, I could never let it go. It takes a strong person to do what you do, I am weak when it comes to dogs. Whose right, who wrong will not be solved in this matter. We all have the right to choose what we want, if someone chooses to have a dog that does not hike his leg indoors should not be hammered on, it's their choice. I gotta go and give my perfect little boy 10,000 kisses and hugs.

It is abundantly clear that you have not read ALL of my posts on Sharon's threads. I have actually supported her and been friendly with her. Just cannot support THIS nonsense that happened...and, at this poin,t her friends calling the breeder a liar. I am not defending the breeder because I quite frankly don't know what she said or did....BUT I am not going to join the little witch hunt either. ...especially when I have seen this happen over and over.

I didn't ever say I don't care for Sharon. I just think she has very unrealistic expectations of pups.

No, I don't think you "got it" at all. But, hey, that's not my problem. Lots of people think Donald Trump is wonderful...I think he is a pig. Everyone has his/her own thoughts about things. :) I am not about to change how anyone sees things. What I WILL do is stand up for injustice and calling this breeder a liar is wrong on SO many levels if a person bases it only on the words of the OP.

It is still "nice around here"....I guess it depends on who and what you are focusing on. :)

[QUOTE=ladyjane;4619892]You say you are not her "mouthpiece" yet if you read the above, it looks to me like you would not have posted your "bible" if you had known she was responding. The above comment was telling...and is why I said what I said...you have been speaking for her all day long...AND trashing a breeder by calling her a liar when I seriously doubt you heard her or saw her write any lies. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE
Ok I gave my perfect boy his 10,000 kisses.
Again I say, I was responding to you quoting my post, Sharon was posting about other issues, when I put out the whoops I had not read what Sharon had written, one way or the other, you quoted my post, made comments, I am a very polite gal and would have not ignored your quoting my post and would have answered regardless Sharon had posted or not. It was my you were responding to, the only polite thing to do was to respond to it.

Btw- on a lighter note.

I'm with you on "the Donald" 100%


Off to wash 3 Yorkies
1 who would rather do anything other than take a bath
And
2 who are just ok with it. :/

LOL it's people like you that I would LOVE to see end up with a female that hikes her leg. This whole thing about leg hiking is so ridiculous but I can see I am wasting my time trying to educate people. Leg hiking and marking are totally different and my belief is that no one here understands that. She didn't say INDOORS...She said no leg hiking AT ALL. Remote chance of that happening. But again, anyone who wants the PERFECT dog probably should not have one...you must invest time in them to help them understand what your expectations are.

We still have not heard Dee's side of this story and likely never will....I simply will NOT be trashing a person as a breeder without adequate information. She knows that I have been very outspoken about a friend of hers who I think is a total POS breeder/broker .. I don't ever hold back when I know something to be true. I don't know anything about Dee to be true...except that I do believe she erred in selling Sharon a dog just based on the attitude about leg hiking. BUT again, I was not privy to their discussions...so I really am only guessing that she should not have sold to her.