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-   General Yorkshire Terrier Discussion (https://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/general-yorkshire-terrier-discussion/)
-   -   Puppy before 12 weeks (https://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/general-yorkshire-terrier-discussion/283619-puppy-before-12-weeks.html)

Lovetodream88 06-12-2015 09:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by djackson59 (Post 4566320)
I'm not saying that you personally are being hostile. But I have seen so many posts where people who have gotten a puppy than is younger, treated badly strictly for the age of the baby without any thought being given to the condition which the puppy was living in. I am sure there are bad breeders who sell puppies at 12 weeks but because of the puppy reaching the magic 12 week mark it is never questioned on this forum. By the way I am an expat, I am from the states. Where I live there is a much bigger problem with bad breeders. My babies are not from good breeders, strictly because I could not find a good one here, luckily that is starting to change. But I can look objectively at what is being said and see that for some reason it is only correct to purchase, or sell a puppy at 12 weeks. There is so much more to be considered when selling or buying a puppy than just age.
Of course there are more things that go into it then age. Generally if the puppy needs to leave mom early because of bad living conditions it's a bad breeder.

Lovetodream88 06-12-2015 09:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjwalt (Post 4566322)


Actually, I have spent countless hours volunteering at animal shelters because I love animals, period. I have seen plenty of yorkies, yorkie mixes, and every other breed/ breed combo come through the doors with all kinds of issues, and some with none at all. Genetics is still a very young science, there is so much that we still have to learn. While it is more likely that dogs who have been tested for the handful of genetic diseases that we have discovered, when the gene pools are mixing, ANYTHING CAN HAPPEN. Dogs get sick and it is the responsibility of the owner to do what they can to make them better. It’s gonna be a long time before we can truly genetically engineer animals with perfect health and that will probably be done in a lab by scientists and not breeders.


I am someone who just lost a dog that was my best friend for the last 13 years. He came from a reputable breeder who did all the testing and shenanigans that go into your definition of a “reputable breeder” But he still got cancer and died in my arms. It hurt but that’s what I signed up for when I bought him, and even if he had some other genetic illness I still would have chosen him just like he chose me.


I think you might be putting too much weight on the bells and whistles in breeding, even with all the testing that is available and holding a puppy for 12 weeks, there is no complete guarantee and it’s still a chance you could have ended up looking into the eyes of a sick and dying friend like I did. Bottom line, Breeding is still a crap shoot. Period. Anyone who goes to a breeder and connects with a dog then walks away because it’s a chance he might get sick one day should not be getting a dog in the first place.





All dogs deserve homes, love and care, no matter where they come from. All this banter about categories of breeders only keeps good people from good dogs. I’m not for supporting puppy mills or immoral breeders but once the dogs are here, they are here. What shall we do with them?
If you support the bad breeder they stay in business plan and simple to continue ruining the breed. Puppies will always find homes you want the breeder to have to massively drop the price to sell the puppy before buying. You buy the breeder not the puppy. You find the breeder and then look at the puppies. It is a fact that puppies from reputable breeders are less likely to have genetic issues then those from bad breeders. Cancer mostly is not a genetic illness.

rjwalt 06-12-2015 09:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ironmike86 (Post 4566319)
Peta didn't create the breeding standards. You can justify everything in your mind but a good Yorkie Breeder doesn't release the pups simple. It's a Code of Ethics. If a breeder skips the simple thing. I bet there defiantly are skipping the pairing the heath checks. Making sure the breeding lines are clean. Know the dogs history. Alot of breeders don't = Yorkies have one of the most health defects in small dogs.


Says you.




I never said peta created the breed standard, peta is against breeding, PERIOD. What they did was try to put breeders out of business by shaming them for breeding dogs while there are dogs around that do not have homes. They created a hierarchy amongst breeders by pitting them against each other by creating tossing in the terms: reputable breeders, backyard breeders, and coining the term Puppy mill. Their goal is to push the public to adopt spayed and neutered dogs from shelters that cannot reproduce to kill breeding by taking away potential buyers. Then they try to push mandatory spay and neutering laws and heavy breeding restrictions. If they get their way, dog breeds will eventually start to disappear because the price of a dog will skyrocket and dogs will become a luxury if they survive.

Lovetodream88 06-12-2015 09:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjwalt (Post 4566325)
Says you.




I never said peta created the breed standard, peta is against breeding, PERIOD. What they did was try to put breeders out of business by shaming them for breeding dogs while there are dogs around that do not have homes. They created a hierarchy amongst breeders by pitting them against each other by creating tossing in the terms: reputable breeders, backyard breeders, and coining the term Puppy mill. Their goal is to push the public to adopt spayed and neutered dogs from shelters that cannot reproduce to kill breeding by taking away potential buyers. Then they try to push mandatory spay and neutering laws and heavy breeding restrictions. If they get their way, dog breeds will eventually start to disappear because the price of a dog will skyrocket and dogs will become a luxury if they survive.
No it's not says him it's the Yorkshire Terrier Club of America and then also studies that have been done.

rjwalt 06-12-2015 10:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovetodream88 (Post 4566324)
If you support the bad breeder they stay in business plan and simple to continue ruining the breed. Puppies will always find homes you want the breeder to have to massively drop the price to sell the puppy before buying. You buy the breeder not the puppy. You find the breeder and then look at the puppies. It is a fact that puppies from reputable breeders are less likely to have genetic issues then those from bad breeders. Cancer mostly is not a genetic illness.

Its a fact that having parents of a litter of pups tested for genetic illness will not pop up with the illness that you test for. That's it. Unfortunately there are still plenty of other illnesses that can occur as well as illnesses that can be acquired, and mutations in genetics that don't show up on the test or happen down the line. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with being safe and genetic testing dog is a good thing, just not full proof.


Back to the issue at hand, Some pups are totally ready to go to new homes before 12 weeks, lets just say that the best time period for dogs in general to go to their new homes is between 8-12weeks.Studies show that the ideal bonding time between dog sand their new owners is between 8 ad 12 weeks, after that they can become too attached to their birth home/family and litter mates and the transition that breeders are trying to avoid might worsen.

Lovetodream88 06-12-2015 10:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjwalt (Post 4566330)
Its a fact that having parents of a litter of pups tested for genetic illness will not pop up with the illness that you test for. That's it. Unfortunately there are still plenty of other illnesses that can occur as well as illnesses that can be acquired, and mutations in genetics that don't show up on the test or happen down the line. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with being safe and genetic testing dog is a good thing, just not full proof.


Back to the issue at hand, Some pups are totally ready to go to new homes before 12 weeks, lets just say that the best time period for dogs in general to go to their new homes is between 8-12weeks.Studies show that the ideal bonding time between dog sand their new owners is between 8 ad 12 weeks, after that they can become too attached to their birth home/family and litter mates and the transition that breeders are trying to avoid might worsen.
Knowing the lines several generations and knowing they are free of genetic illness is a big thing as well huge actually. But that's not true about bonding or going to there new homes. My mom got a 5 year old rescue and he has bonded better then others. Mine came home around 4 months old and she is so bonded she knows my moods and everything. We rescued a dog at 2 years old who thought she was my mom almost. Age has NOTHING to do with bonding. I would love for you to show me a reputable breeder who will let a pup go before 12 weeks. If you can't show one how can you be so sure there is one?

rjwalt 06-12-2015 10:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovetodream88 (Post 4566327)
No it's not says him it's the Yorkshire Terrier Club of America and then also studies that have been done.




I’m familiar with the stance that the YTCA has on the issue, there is a brief paragraph written on it. 12 weeks is merely a TARGET AGE by which a pup SHOULD be adjusted enough, as well as big enough to go out into the world into a new home, They should have two rounds of vacs, be eating regularly, and strong enough to handle the possible stress accompanied by the move to a new environment, with that said, a lot of puppies are ready before then. And letting them go if they meet their marks to new homes with experienced dog owners does not make them bad breeders.

djackson59 06-12-2015 10:26 PM
I know that this debate could go on forever. I can say that it seems that people are only met with a positive response if they are repeating and agreeing with what is politically correct. The 12 week rule is what is considered politically correct. We all agree that bad breeders should be stopped. It seems to me that all breeders should be judged by the way their puppies are raised not on the age that they are sold. I don't want a puppy from a reputable breeder that has been raised in a cage anymore than I would want a puppy that is raised in filthy conditions. Both options to me are unacceptable. There are reputable breeders that have their dogs in cages. To me a cage is a cage, whether it is a reputable breeder or a bad breeder.

rjwalt 06-12-2015 10:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovetodream88 (Post 4566331)
Knowing the lines several generations and knowing they are free of genetic illness is a big thing as well huge actually. But that's not true about bonding or going to there new homes. My mom got a 5 year old rescue and he has bonded better then others. Mine came home around 4 months old and she is so bonded she knows my moods and everything. We rescued a dog at 2 years old who thought she was my mom almost. Age has NOTHING to do with bonding. I would love for you to show me a reputable breeder who will let a pup go before 12 weeks. If you can't show one how can you be so sure there is one?

LOL.
That is virtually impossible because as you have stated MANY times, a “reputable” breeder in your opinion someone who keeps all puppies until they are 12 weeks old. Apparently, you believe that is a major corner stone into what goes into being a “reputable” yorkie breeder. Aside from the fact that I have stated the whole “reputable breeder” thing is merely a self-imposed bragging right that has more to do with the breeder then litters they produce. I simply do not care. There are far more important factors that go into being a good, ethical breeder the nitpicking over a week, long past the point when the pups are fully weaned, have begun vaccinations, and bonding with humans.


rjwalt 06-12-2015 10:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by djackson59 (Post 4566333)
I know that this debate could go on forever. I can say that it seems that people are only met with a positive response if they are repeating and agreeing with what is politically correct. The 12 week rule is what is considered politically correct. We all agree that bad breeders should be stopped. It seems to me that all breeders should be judged by the way their puppies are raised not on the age that they are sold. I don't want a puppy from a reputable breeder that has been raised in a cage anymore than I would want a puppy that is raised in filthy conditions. Both options to me are unacceptable. There are reputable breeders that have their dogs in cages. To me a cage is a cage, whether it is a reputable breeder or a bad breeder.


:goodpost:


The thing that made me settle on my breeder aside from the pup that chose me by following me round and sitting on my shoe was when I went into the house and the whole place was designed to accommodate and incorporate the dogs into their home and family. Steps up to the sofa, toys scattered about,even doggie doors in the house room to room!

djackson59 06-12-2015 10:39 PM
to me that is the definition of a good breeder!!

Lovetodream88 06-13-2015 08:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by djackson59 (Post 4566333)
I know that this debate could go on forever. I can say that it seems that people are only met with a positive response if they are repeating and agreeing with what is politically correct. The 12 week rule is what is considered politically correct. We all agree that bad breeders should be stopped. It seems to me that all breeders should be judged by the way their puppies are raised not on the age that they are sold. I don't want a puppy from a reputable breeder that has been raised in a cage anymore than I would want a puppy that is raised in filthy conditions. Both options to me are unacceptable. There are reputable breeders that have their dogs in cages. To me a cage is a cage, whether it is a reputable breeder or a bad breeder.
I'm not sure you know what a reputable breeder is. A reputable breeder does not have there dogs in cages.

Lovetodream88 06-13-2015 08:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjwalt (Post 4566334)
LOL.
That is virtually impossible because as you have stated MANY times, a “reputable” breeder in your opinion someone who keeps all puppies until they are 12 weeks old. Apparently, you believe that is a major corner stone into what goes into being a “reputable” yorkie breeder. Aside from the fact that I have stated the whole “reputable breeder” thing is merely a self-imposed bragging right that has more to do with the breeder then litters they produce. I simply do not care. There are far more important factors that go into being a good, ethical breeder the nitpicking over a week, long past the point when the pups are fully weaned, have begun vaccinations, and bonding with humans.


Your wrong with your jaded veiw of breeders. You also can't show me a reputable breeder who does everything right except the 12 week thing.

Lovetodream88 06-13-2015 08:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjwalt (Post 4566335)
:goodpost:


The thing that made me settle on my breeder aside from the pup that chose me by following me round and sitting on my shoe was when I went into the house and the whole place was designed to accommodate and incorporate the dogs into their home and family. Steps up to the sofa, toys scattered about,even doggie doors in the house room to room!
Quote:
Originally Posted by djackson59 (Post 4566337)
to me that is the definition of a good breeder!!
A reputable breeder breeds to better the breed, they do all available health testing, they know the lines several generations back to know they are free of genetic illnesses and issues, they only breed dogs that follow the standard, they are AKC registered, they keep puppies until 12 weeks, they do not breed females under 5 pounds, they do not use the word teacup, they do not just give breeding rights to someone who is willing to pay more, they don't just sell there puppies to anyone they have many many questions, they make you sign a paper saying if you can not keep the dog you will bring it back to them, and they are available for questions and willing to have a relashionship with you and hearing about the pup as it grows. That is a reputable breeder. Not a person who just puts two dogs together.

rjwalt 06-13-2015 09:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovetodream88 (Post 4566447)
A reputable breeder breeds to better the breed, they do all available health testing, they know the lines several generations back to know they are free of genetic illnesses and issues, they only breed dogs that follow the standard, they are AKC registered, they keep puppies until 12 weeks, they do not breed females under 5 pounds, they do not use the word teacup, they do not just give breeding rights to someone who is willing to pay more, they don't just sell there puppies to anyone they have many many questions, they make you sign a paper saying if you can not keep the dog you will bring it back to them, and they are available for questions and willing to have a relashionship with you and hearing about the pup as it grows. That is a reputable breeder. Not a person who just puts two dogs together.


This argument you seem intent on having honestly belongs in some other thread. The OP was looking for ACTUAL ANECDOTAL ACCOUNTS of people who got their pups before 12 weeks. If you have none to share...... :scratchhe




I believe it states clearly in the rules of the forum "If you have only criticism and nothing constructive to add to a thread - then DO NOT POST." I have no idea how what you have contributed to this thread would an any way contribute to the OP's thread. I commend and respect your passion on the issue but I'm afraid its misplaced in this thread.




If you want to stand on a soapbox and celebrate "reputable breeders" why not make your own thread on the subject. ?


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