LOL. You ladies are cracking me up. This thread has been really interesting to me as it is about a topic I knew nothing about and I am all about furthering my knowledge about everything that affects our precious furbabies. I am especially impressed with all of you who have done such diligent research. I have to admit all that science hurts my head so I greatly appreciate those who do that kind of work and can break it down for me in easy to understand terms. So for those of you who have kept the focus on the topic instead of personal attacks on each other, Thank you.

Don't forget about Phil......;)

Thank you for posting. It's always nice to hear that other members are paying attention to the information that we are sharing. :)

Sounds very much like the vet the Golden Retrievers owners use (I posted about on page 3, I think).... at this point, the dog is 10 and they know he is not going to be around much longer so the most important thing is keeping him comfortable and as healthy as he can be. They're not trying to 'cure' anything but basically just let him live out his final weeks. But when they give him his Chinese medicine (I'll find out exactly what it is tomorrow), it's really like a miracle drug, he begins to act like a different dog, for the better. And the fact that he's even still alive is crazy, he was supposed to be gone by January.... the only 'regular' meds he's getting are pain meds basically, the rest is a lot of the herbs and Chinese meds that they have.

I have no idea about this product so I'm only jumping in to say that science terminology is different to lay persons terminology and we are not all scientists and we are not all lay persons so we must adapt our communication and expectations re: this accordingly.


Coming across as factual (and sometimes offensive due to a propensity to appear to disregard public opinion) is a professional hazard with researchers because they have to be so very critical of their work as well as others. This professional skill does not always translate well into every day conversations.


My take on this as a researcher is simple, one scientists assertion, even if it is based on original empirical evidence, is not enough evidence to support or reject the conclusion of the research. Therefore, at best, all one can conclude is that their findings are worthy of further investigation by them or others.


I would say that if a product or an endorsement of a product is as a result of one research project, I would be very cautious about how I viewed the claims of that product and keep an open mind re: any future adaptations to the product or product advice.


Hope that helps

At the risk of being hit in the head by flying objects :D, I finally had a chance to go over the paper that Dr. Dodds sent to Gemy with a fine tooth comb.

As a review article, it is rather frustrating, because most of the references she cites to prove a point have little to do with the point that she is making. There are a few exceptions, and I was able to find this gem amongst the gravel:

The canine model of dietary hypersensitivity, by Michael J. Day. 2005. Proceedings of the Nutrition Society 64:458-464.

This article describes the concept of food insensitivity and intolerance in terms that align very well with the way Dr. Dodds describes it. It's behind a paywall (of course), but you should be able to read the abstract here: Cambridge Journals Online - Proceedings of the Nutrition Society - Abstract - The canine model of dietary hypersensitivity

Well, that's the good news. The bad news is that Dr. Dodds' references to salivary testing for food sensitivity and intolerance point mainly to her unpublished data presented at AHVMA conferences, or to her Canine Nutrigenomics book. She does provide references to salivary antibodies in humans, but those are mostly related to responses to bacterial antigens. There has been very little published on salivary antibodies as related to food insensitivity. Serum (from blood) antibodies yes, but saliva no.

Dr. Dodds provides photos of two food intolerant dogs before and after removing the offending food from their diet, presumably diagnosed using Nutriscan, but that's only two data points. She doesn't give any numbers or percentages on how many dogs improved after their diets were changed based on the test.

Dr. Dodds also provides two tables of data, but they only indicate the numbers of dogs that showed various food insensitivities according to the Nutriscan test. It doesn't say how many improved after their diet was changed.

Overall, I am left better informed about the concept of food intolerance and the leaky gut syndrome, which I believe to be real, but there is no proof that the Nutriscan test works, or that it measures anything that is biologically meaningful in food intolerant dogs. Dr. Dodds still needs to publish peer-reviewed data on the number and percentage of dogs that improved once their diets were changed in accordance with the results of Nutriscan testing.

And this is likely the same conclusions reached by veterinary dermatologists and others who do not use the test like veterinary nutritionists who work in large clinical settings like vet schools and teaching vet hospitals. Those people already know a lot about food intolerances and leaky gut syndrome so if the test was worth using, they would.

[quote=gemy;4551769]Can you please pm me the info. . If not I will pm my email to you so you can send it to me please

Thank you for your diligent efforts in researching this and other papers and references. I agree, a fully completed study reported in an approved journal would be ideal. However, for example, I have IBS which I have not been able to get cured yet and if I were the one who was cured by a partially completed research and unpublished study I would be over the moon. Many of the treatments that have helped me a little have been from the non traditional medicine sources!! As for the cost, I would pay what it cost if the treatment worked for me. What we pay for treatment and meds is up to us and we have to make our own judgement as to what it is worth to us.
I think it important to note that research into physical/scientific subjects (my interest and experience) is so much easier to quantify, control and prove than those in medical animal subjects that have many and sometimes uncontrolled variables. Thank you again for all your literature review efforts, I know that is very time consuming!!

I am so glad you found an amazing doctor. Sometimes the alternative therapies are better for the body as a whole. It is nice to see you opened your mind up to something different. Something you were not used to. I am so excited for you !

Repeat

Totally agree! BTW I emailed Skeptvet yesterday and forwarded the PDF to him for his input. He responded and will read over and respond with his opinion on the research that was done for the paper that Dr. Dodd sent to Gemy. I'm very interested in his take and feedback. I'll be sure to update.

That was brilliant! I was thinking about the same thing, but you beat me to it. I did email the Skeptvet and asked him to write a blog reviewing the Nutriscan test and Dr. Dodds' book Canine Nutrigenomics, and he wrote back and said that was on his "to do" list.

I wanted to come back to this as I definitely misunderstood it the first time. I was under the impression that you provided conventional medical care for your animals and that your holistic vet was an adjunct. It is clear from this post that I misunderstood you. So, you have a holistic vet who uses herbs. He is a "minimalist" with vaccines and medicines. In all but one case w/ Kiwi, you used holistic medicine not conventional.

That's fine, that's your choice. Katie is a young dog, and I hope for her sake you are doing core vaccination, heartworm prevention and flea/tick prevention. I hope she has an annual physical exam and routine lab work. It isn't my business how you take care of your dogs, and they obviously have lived very long lives and are most definitely greatly loved and valued by you in the same way I value and love my dogs.

I guess I have some concerns w/ the disappointment you had w/ conventional medicine. Reading your post, you state that one of your dogs had developed kidney problems after being on enalapril for congestive heart failure. I am not a vet, so I cannot speak definitively on this issue, but it is my understanding that Enalapril and other ACE inhibitors are used to delay the onset of CHF. These ACE inhibitors are unlikely to cause kidney damage, in fact, they are widely prescribed by veterinary specialists for dogs w/ certain kidney disease like protein losing nephropathy. My own dog has PLN, and has been on an ACE inhibitor for about 4 years, with normal kidney values.

Unfortunately, congestive heart failure in dogs creates fluid problems which impact the kidney more so than the medications. Nowadays, CHF is treated with newer drugs like Viagra, Pimobenden, and maintaining fluid buildup with lasix. My dog has severe atrial enlargement and is on a tiny dose of an ACE inhibitor. There is no consensus from the ACVIM for my dog's treatment for the stage of heart disease he has, but his cardiologist has chosen to add the ACE inhibitor. This decision was also backed by his internist that is seeing him for collapsing trachea and bronchial compression.

That brings me to your next point about Collapsing Trachea. There is no better anti-inflammatory than corticosteroids. I have concerns about long term use of them, but again, small doses, and newer medications like Temiril-P can really keep symptoms at bay. My dog Barney who I referenced above about heart disease has had a very mild grade CT his whole life. Now that his heart is enlarged, it is causing some pressure on his bronchial stem and the area of narrowing of his trachea seems more pronounced. The trajectory of the disease in a now almost 15 year old dog will not be such that he will every really be a severe case. His heart is likely to do him in before the trachea every does and my worst fear is that the chordea tendonae will bust and he will die on the road to Boston before I can have his vets help him to his final rest.... But, while he is alive, I have had to come away from long held concerns about using steroids and broncho-dialators and cough suppressants. He will need some combo of these for the rest of his life. His potassium may jump from his ACE inhibitor, but if it does, Dr. Remillard who is a vet nutritionist will alter his diet to remove some potassium from his daily intake (he takes in quite a bit from sweet potatoes).

I guess what I am saying in a long winded way here is that medications have their place and the prescribers have decades of experience using these medications in certain dosages to preserve the health of the dog and improve their quality of life. I'm sorry you felt like conventional medicine did not do enough for your dogs. Perhaps you needed a specialist, with more specific training and clinical experience to titrate the drugs properly and in a minimal way where you would have been comfortable. Conventional vets have done plenty for my animals, also living long lives, and I hope even longer. I would never go to a holistic vet as a stand-alone person. I don't believe in their testing methodologies and don't need to listen to soft music piped into the waiting room while sipping an organic tea. My flavor is more like a cup of coffee, wifi, and the smell of broad spectrum microbicide filling the air so I know I'm in a hospital that stands ready and capable to take care of my animals. If they are integrative vets, then at least I know they are delivering some aspect of allopathic medicine and testing.

I hope Katie never gets sick. But if she does, I hope you will never rely fully on untested theories, herbs, and a guy you really like when she may really need the conventional veterinarian on her case.

[quote=Verbena;4552186]You can PM either gemy or me with your email address. The paper is a 2.2 Mb PDF file, so we'd have to email it to you.

Thank you very much. . . I try. . :)

I also asked him to write a review of the book. I also asked Dr. Remillard to review the book. She said they wrote a chapter in a vet text on nutrition about canine nutrigenomics so she said it would make an interesting comparison. I am not sure when she will get to it.

Any one using herbs and holistic stuff needs to be aware that these have not been tested the same way as real medicines and there side effects and long term effects are unknown and some have even been shown to cause severe issues. Has any one heard of St.Johns wart? Natural little supplement that can have some seriously nasty terrible side effects. So not everything natural, herbal and holistic is all the great or even safe in my opinion it is far more dangerous the regular medicines.

Thanks. It is time consuming :). If all conventional methods didn't work, then I would certainly consider unconventional methods as a last resort. Dr. Dodds is providing easy (but expensive) methods, and is suggesting them as a first resort. I'm concerned that it might cause people to bypass methods that are more tried and proven, but perhaps more difficult (such as elimination diets). I'm a little frustrated, because Dr. Dodds has tested hundreds, if not thousands, of dogs with Nutriscan, and surely she has data on the test's accuracy and success rate that could be subjected to peer review and published. If the data are published and vetted by veterinary medical experts, then the test may very well pass from unconventional to conventional. Until then, though, I'm left scratching my head.

Maybe the data isn't favorable to her position.

That's what I feel like it must be if the stuff is not ready available you know?

I'm not willing to speculate on the reasons the data haven't been published yet--there are many possibilities. However, I want to thank everybody for moving on the Nutriscan controversy so quickly, including those who have had their dogs tested and obtained good results. Hopefully we will have some definitive answers soon.

PS -- Since this thread didn't start out being about Nutriscan, I tagged it so people can find it later. This is turning into the most definitive Nutriscan thread yet :)

[quote=Verbena;4552186]
Yes please send me your email I canèt don't know how to attach a pdf file in pms here.

First of all Phil I thank you for taking the time to search and review the citations and to give your learned opinion on what you found and what you did not find!


I plan on another communication with Dr Dodds in the near term future to ask further questions and see where she stands on her willingness preparedness to publish in shall I say more mainstream scientific journals.

Great work Cathy. Because the more and clearer the information is out there the better it is for pet owners to make truly informed decisions at least with respect to this Nutriscan test.


And I am pretty dang sure she has hundreds if not thousands of dogs that were tested and then some % applied the test results successfully (or not) with the dogs. How-ever she would have needed to set up a clinical trial that would provide meaningfull information once the data was collected and a control group etc etc etc.

I didn't ask Dr Remillard about the test, I asked her to do a book review.

The replacement of herbs with synthesized or synthetic drugs is actually new, less then a century old. This is due to drug companies not being able to patent commonly used plants. These pharmaceutical companies employ chemists that can develop synthetic drugs to replace the plant. . . . Which is a billion plus industry.


Here are some of the few of the many plants that are used now . . . .

from Cinchona pubescens also known as the anti-malarial quinine. 10,000 tons of bark is harvested annually to make quinine.

In cancer treatment, the drug Paclitaxel (Taxol) a derivative of the Pacific yew Taxus brevifolia, is used in chemotherapy.

The Madagascar periwinkle Catharanthus roseus, is the source of vinblastine and vincristine, alkaloids used respectively in the treatment of Hodgkin’s disease and pediatric leukemia.

Senna alexandrina, a shrubby perennial native to Arabia, was introduced as a laxative to Europe by Arab physicians in the ninth century. You can find senna in many drugstore laxative products today.

Mentha (mint) species are the natural sources of menthol, an aromatic alcohol which is also known as peppermint camphor. Menthol is an active ingredient in topical preparations to relieve itching and as a mild local anesthetic to soothe soreness and ease muscular tension. Menthol is commonly used in lozenges for sore throats, and is added to inhalers to treat upper respiratory disorders and open congested sinuses.

Peppermint oil, which can still be found in drugstores, is a centuries-old remedy for quelling an upset stomach. Studies show that peppermint oil when taken internally can relieve irritable bowel syndrome.

Gaultheria procumbens, or wintergreen, is a source of methylsalicylate, which is widely used in topical ointments and liniments to relieve muscular pain, and for lumbago, sciatica and rheumatic conditions.

Papaver somniferum, the opium poppy, yields a sap of narcotic opium, from which the potent pain killer morphine is made. Seeds and capsules discovered in the four thousand year old archaeological remains of Swiss lake-dwellers suggest the use of the plant for its narcotic juice. Simultaneously, opium and its products heroin and morphine established themselves among drug users and in the field of medicine. Both uses continue to this day. In modern medicine, morphine and its analogues remain unsurpassed pain killers.

Digitalis purpurea, the purple foxglove, is a popular garden plant cultivated as a source of digitoxin, a cardiac drug which increases the strength of heart beat while decreasing its rate. The plant was recommended for medicinal purposes in the seventeenth century, and has appeared in the French Pharmacopoeia since its first printing in 1818. Digitoxin is used in the treatment of congestive heart failure and other cardiac disorders. Digitalis lanata, the woolly foxglove, is cultivated commercially as a source of digoxin, a cardiotonic used for the same purposes as digitoxin.


Plants and their derivatives are currently the sources for thousands of drugs worldwide. I agree that i doesn't mean that they are all safe or without side effects. Certain parts from the plants like morphine are toxic due to their concentration strength. Small amounts of any can be benefical in a clinical setting. It is good to remember sometimes with medicine . .any you take can be poison with the dose.



Here is some of a list of plants that are used in drugs

Drugs from Plants - Ethnobotany and Chemistry



Again please . . Open your minds.

Remember something you may take every day. . .

Salicin, Willow (salix) bark, which breaks down to become Salicylic Acid or you know as . . . Aspirin

"Herbal advocates like to point out that about half of today's medicines were derived from plants. (Digitalis, for example, was originally derived from leaves of the foxglove plant.) This statement is true but misleading. Drug products contain specified amounts of active ingredients. Herbs in their natural state can vary greatly from batch to batch and often contain chemicals that cause side effects but provide no benefit."

See, The Herbal Minefield

LThank you so much for your concern and for taking the time to write this. You have a great deal of knowledge to share, and I have learned so much from you today and in the past from your posts.

To answer your question, my vet takes an integrative approach to medicine. I have used herbs on a few occasions, but he mostly has used conventional medicatiòn with my dogs. He blends western medicine with Chinese medicine. His wife also is a veterinarian at the practice. She got her degree from Cornell. My veterinarian uses conventional medicine and is a wonderful diagnostician, but he is mostly known for his Use of Chinese medicine.

Before Katie, I had three Yorkies all from the same sire who were within a year of each other. All three for the most part were treated mostly with conventional medicine. They had core vaccines every three years but no others, and they had yearly dentals and checkups. They most definitely had heartworm prevention, as well as flea and tick medicatiòn. When Ashley was found to have an enlarged heart at close to eleven, he stopped all vaccines for her. She was on a small dose of Enalapril for her heart. When she was close to sixteen she took herbs for her heart because it was pressing on her trachea, but it wasn't for a long time. Her heart and lungs were very strong because of all of the walking we did. Ashley took herbs for her trachea for a short time also when she had a bad flare-up. I considered her tracheal issues mild, but perhaps it's because her little sister, Gracie, had severe tracheal issues her whole life. Otherwise, Ashley was treated with conventional medicine throughout her almost seventeen years. Gracie never took herbs. Her trachea was awful, and she required a lot of care. Herbs were never suggested for Gracie's trachea. Kiwi was my little girl with the terrible allergies and the heart problem not long before she passed away. We used cortisteroids and allergy serums, and she still suffered. She never got rashes or secondary infections, but they her allergies really affected her. We tried herbs for a while for her heart. My girls were very difficult to pill, and with the strong smell and probably awful taste of the herbs, they were able to spit them out of almost everything. I would have more readily used them if it was easier to get them to take herbs. When Kiwi went into CHF, she was prescribed Lasix and Enalapril. She was not taking herbs, and results from the blood test after only a week showed her kidneys were being affected. It was a long time ago, so I don't recall if we did blood work before she started the medication, but when the results of the kidneys being affected, he pulled her off Enalapril. We had to flush her kidneys out first and only later when she was stronger were herbs started.

Katie is six. She came to me at three years old having all puppy and first year vaccines. She had a rabies vaccine two years ago. My vet said he wanted to separate out the vaccines. I brought up the subject of titers, and that is his preference. Had I not brought titers up, he would have given her the booster a month later. I realize titers are not 100% reliable. I'm really very conflicted about whether she should have a vaccine this year. Her titer levels were very good last year and the duration of immunity most likely is greater than three years. I'm really struggling with this. Katie has never taken herbs, nor were they ever suggested, but I will consider them in certain instances. She has taken Flagyl and Clavamox but no other medications other than heartworm, flea, and tick medications.

i've seen my veterinarian's wife and the other vet in the practice, and they are very good vets, but I mostly see this vet. All practice conventional medicine with the addition of Chinese medicine at times. My vet has a wonderful way with animals, and he treats them with great respect. Herbs are never pushed, and I always feel he has the best interest of animals at heart. Knowing what I know now, I wouldn't hesitate to seek the help of a specialist should Katie need one.

You have taken such wonderful care of all of your dogs, and I hope Barney and your three precious little ones remain healthy and happy. No doubt they are loved and given the very best care. I really admire how much you advocate for your dogs and how have given them every chance for the best, healthiest life possible.

Thank you again for looking out for Katie and me. She is the center of our lives, and we adore her. We would never knowingly do anything to harm her, and we are doing our very best to keep her healthy, active, and extremely happy.

Until they start to test them to the extent as regular medicine and list the warnings and stuff regular medicine will be safer. It's not a closed minded thing. And really all this has nothing to do with a test that has no science to back it up or even syliva testing having no science to back it up. I guess talking about holistic mecdicine brought this up. Even if that herbs and such work it dosent make this test work.

I definitely hear what you're saying, but I don't believe conventional medicine is always safer. Some medication is very toxic, and there may be some herbal medications that are safer. Chinese medicine has been around for a very long time. That doesn't necessarily make it safe, but it doesn't mean they are necessarily not safe. The same is true about conventional medicine. I have to take conventional medications, but there are side effects to all medications.

I used to be skeptical, but I've seen Chinese medication work. That does not mean that I don't use conventional medication for Katie and me. I would definitely have to know something about who was making them, just like I want to know about the company who makes vitamins I take.