Gemy, thank you. You always offer such comprehensive rebuttal and it really is nice to see that you put so much thought into your replies.


For my part, I have yet to see the benefit to the YT, specifically in tail docking.


In fairness, two main arguments have come to light:


1. Dogs may have their tails injured
2. We like it this way - it is not illegal - so it continues


Both arguments are invalid for the reasons I (and others) have previously stated, in my opinion.


And, although I do not agree with the reasons given to validate this practice, I respect that choice as long as you have been given the freedom to choose.


However, I resent that the choice has been removed from the dogs. Maybe, in time, I will event a brain machine that reads their thoughts and they can let us know what they prefer if we bother to ask.


Doctorate - here I come!:)


Have a great weekend everyone!

just to put in my two cents: I would prefer that it were not the "breed standard."
And I can't understand how something could be the breed standard when not a Yorkie on the planet is born or bred with a docked tail.

I was thinking the same thing: no tail, no tail injuries. no left leg, no left leg injuries.
Also, if we want data on Yorkies, I wonder if UK would have that since they don't allow docking? Are Yorkies there incurring tail injuries more than other breeds? or fewer?

"The dog doesn't need his tail to be happy, healthy, run, [COLOR=green !important][COLOR=green !important]work[/COLOR][/COLOR], play, live his life - he needs his legs.

Your argument of keeping statistics on missing parts vs. present parts is a non-starter, as tails are not vital to the health or well-being of a dog's life as a leg is. Since legs are actually used as part of daily life when arising, lying down, walking, running, jumping, sitting, etc., their injuries would by far surpass that of tail injury. Besides, in the real world - the whole world over, statistics of tail injury only work if the injuries are actually reported by owners and reported by the vets - and likely rural, [COLOR=green !important][COLOR=green !important]farm[/COLOR][/COLOR] and deep urban and third world country areas where dogs get little care have very few tail injuries cared for by anybody, let alone vets and very little vet reporting to any oversight or fact-gathering agency. Broken legs even get left to self-heal, so imagine how little a tail injury gets tended to professionally and pain medication given. "

I wish there were a like button!

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Yesterday, I too was going to bring up the whole appendix thing and then forgot. Also, same thing w/ the spleen. :)

The appendix isn't conveniently or easily removed as a young puppy's tail is docked. The appendix removal requires the risk of fully anesthetizing a new-born infant plus an open-cutting operative procedure into the torso near the bowel, not a 60 second procedure on an appendage that requires neither. Should the bowel be nicked during the appendectomy, the surgeon can have a really dire situation as the whole peritoneal cavity is flooded with bacteria. When it goes wrong, an inflamed appendix and its removal can cause a bushel of serious medical problems and death.

If the appendix were hanging onto the end of the outside of the body and it wasn't dangerous or painful to do so, no doubt it could be removed if the parents decided they wanted that preventative measure, on either gender, at about the same time in the infant's life that the male's foreskin is taken to prevent the possibility of future disease. And when the appendix becomes inflamed, besides the dangerous surgery, it can develop into sepsis, a deadly condition that kills one-third of those who get it worldwide.

I am going to say something, I said before, but worth saying again. If you don't like the breed standard, and want to make a difference then join your YT breed club. Then you become eligible to vote and to partake of standard discussions!


But that is not the only reason, as a fancier of the breed, you should join your YT Club, and here it is, bold and simple, we need your support and your $$.


Breed clubs often support and fund research, in fact we are often the instigators and agitators for that self same research.


If you don't or can't join, try to stay current with what your local breed club is doing. Support their fundraisers, contribute DNA samples, buccal swabs etc, as the YT breeders try their best to eliminate many of the health concerns of Yorkies.


To dock a tail or not, pales beside the significance of the health concerns of Yorkies. None of which originates from a docked tail.


Linking the docking of a tail, to a human appendectomy, or to amputation of a human leg, or to removal of a spleen is such a specious argument. They quite simply do not compare.


If only such passion could be focussed on funding and finding and supporting health research into Yorkies!!!!!

Thanks, that's a great suggestion for everyone.


As previously stated, prevention of cruelty to animals is just as important as preventing and treating health issues.


Something being the "norm" or "standard" does not make it okay or acceptable and it takes people to challenge the norm to bring about change for the betterment of all concerned.


NO VOICE = NO CHOICE and I am happy to be that voice.


I would encourage anyone to support any group which cares about the welfare of all animals such as the RSPCA:


If you would like further information about the RSPCA, policies, or governing and branch rules, simply follow these links or send your request in writing to:

RSPCA Supporter Services
Wilberforce Way
Southwater
Horsham
West Sussex
RH13 9RS.


For my part, this debate has left me enlightened but exhausted. I do not know what spurred it on (I think it was Teddy's sweet wagging tail when he greeted me one morning and the rage I felt thinking someone would lop his tail off to meet a "standard"!).


I thoroughly enjoyed some whiskey last night which is enjoying me this morning!


:)

Gail, are you suggesting pet owners, as well as breeders, join the breed club? I didn't think they were receptive to having non-breeders as members. Prospective members are screened very carefully for commitment to the current standard, and must pledge to uphold it. If there's anything in the standard you don't like, keep it to yourself until after you become a member, I guess.
Actually, in the YTCA the membership did previously vote on important things such as standard but in recent years those decisions have been made by the board, hence much of the discontent within the club. I'm not a member and am only repeating here what I've understood some members to say.
I agree we need to fund more research as the genetic markers are going to give us much hope in breeding healthier dogs, and if joining the breed club is going to help with that, I hope everyone joins! :)

I or you would have to look at their bylaws a) at the local club level and b) at the National Level. Look at your membership *rights and duties* as a Regular member. Then look at the requirements of breed associations under the AKC. I am not familiar in detail with the YTCA governance process, but I am with CKC (Canadian Kennel Club).


I do know their are strict governing laws how a Standard is changed and usually a Full Club vote is required. In other words the Board should not be able to submit a standard change to the AKC without a full club vote.


Breeder members in our CKC and in our National Club have extra duties and responsibilities to stay as a member in good standing. You can look at what the CKC says at www.ckc.ca go to the bottom of the first page on the right hand side.


And yes breed fanciers should always be encouraged to join their local/National Club. The challenges of a National Club are many, and we here in Canada have struggled to offer to our pet owners fanciers, some value for the membership $$. We have albeit not consistently, put on annual BBQ's that offer some fun intro activities to do with your dog. Rally o an exhibition of dancing with your dogs, grooming seminars (highly popular), basic obedience, Temperament Tests.


The challenge is volunteer time (as always). Experts in different arenas are few and pretty well over worked.


But the National Breed Club is also responsible for activities surrounding our breed : The Standard, organizing National Shows, Breeders Education Seminars, Judging seminars, responding to information from various sources about the breed. The Health Committee etc etc etc.


No doubt that there is and can be a policy of resistance by some breeders, to input from breed fanciers. But it is very important to source independent non-partisan opinions from the educated lay person, as well as multiple breeders preferably breeding different lines.


So in closing, the bylaws of the YTCA should be available on line at their website, check them out and see what they say!


As a Canadian I can only join as I believe as an associate member, and as such have no rights to vote on anything most especially any proposed standard change. I do how-ever have the right here in Canada to vote, once within the CKC and once with-in our National Club. We are organized differently here as individuals are actual members of the CKC, whereas in the States it is the National Clubs that are members of the AKC.


I hope I have not confused the heck out of you:-)

LOVE the No Voice=No Choice - so simple and true.

I totally support the SPCA - in fact, William Wilberforce is actually one of my all time heroes in history, by far - he was just incredible. One of my fave quotes by him is: If to be feelingly alive to the sufferings of my fellow-creatures is to be a fanatic, I am one of the most incurable fanatics ever permitted to be at large. -- adore that to no end! He was incredible...have you ever seen the movie about him?

Lol....hope the whiskey after effects wear off soon :D!

@Magic Genie: Just briefly checked out the ytca bylaws. And actually I could be an International Member. But not a voting member.


And yes there are 2 sponsors required. At least at CKC you could make your voice heard as any changes to the breed standard must first be approved at the National level - then a full CKC vote is taken and we must have 25% respondents to the proposed change, and 2/3 of that response must vote aye to affirm a standard change.


As befits the importance of a Standard change.

Thanks, Gail, I'm very familiar with the bylaws with regard to applying for membership. One needs 2 sponsors who have been members for at least 4 years, who they've known for at least 2 years, plus 2 additional members supporting the application. So, it's quite a lot for the average pet owner to at this time.
There are regional Yorkshire Terrier clubs that may be easier to join, unfortunately none in my region.
In any case, people do need to get involved if they are to ensure getting good purebred dogs in the future.
I'm geographically in a remote place and searching for internet based ways to participate. Where I am we don't even have any type of kennel club any more. I belong to a small AKC licensed toy breed club in Massachusetts and will volunteer to make and maintain a web site for them since they don't have one. I like to give money here and there, but need a cause to give some energy to as well.:)

Wylie's Mom, I'm afraid of the SPCAs as too extreme, in the same league as PETA and HSUS. I enjoy my dogs and my little breeding program but feel they just don't want any of us to have pets, let alone be breeding them. Maybe a new thread educating us on the difference would be educational.:)

The only reason we do not remove the appendix on new born children is because, unlike tails on dogs, the appendix is an internal organ and requires invasive abdominal surgery. If that little old useless appendix was hanging off our new born's leg or back or chin or butt, we would have it removed too. Like tail docking, it would not be considered a major invasive procedure, who's risks of removal may outweigh the risks of leaving it intact......simple procedure, remove the object, and move forward none the less for wear, but with the knowledge that removal of that object could have very well prevented a major problem from occuring in the future. It was useless, not needed, removal of it caused no problem with the health or development of the dog/newborn.....but it is nothing more than a personal choice. If the parent doesnt mind that useless appendix hanging off their childs chin or butt, then no problem for the parent...may cause problems for the child later, but hey, cross that bridge when you get to it! Dont worry about how much easier it is on the child to have that appendix removed when the child is 2 days old as opposed to waiting for the child to become 40 years old.....

And as we now try to remove that useless appendix which has been left intact, hanging off the babys chin, and the child is now a 40 year old little person, that useless appendix has grown nerve endings and "roots" that now wrap around the facial nerves, even as far up as the optic nerve....NOW, removal of that useless old appendix is a major invasive procedure that can result in paralysis of facial nerves or blindness from involvement around the optic nerve. My goodness....who woud have ever thought such an adorable little cute thing growing on our newborn child/dog
would have caused such horrific challenges and problems for the child/dog later in life. It all boiled down to nothing more than what you prefer...remove this useless little object who's removal had no detrimental health consequences for dog or child when removed early in life....or leave it intact, take your chances and throw the dice.