A reputable breeder does not breed a dog with LP.

I doubt it just popped up and the price she quoted for the surgery is completely wrong. So she is giving buys false info and not letting them know how serious the surgery is, it's 8 weeks minimum crate rest. The surgery has to be done by an orthopedic surgeon not a regular vet. It will cost over $1000. If she was concerned why would she not get the pup his surgery and then sell him after he is healed or how can she know he will get the care he needs? A reputable breeder does not breed dogs with LP period and it would seem weird to me that a pup was diagnosed with it and then she suddenly found out her breeding dog had it. Is she retiring this dog? Has she contacted every owner of a pup who was sired by him? That is what would speak volumes of the type of breeder. It also seems odd she would not I inform the potential buyer of all the issues LP can cause like ACL tears.

I think you really need to look at what I have posted......

Taylor, I don't think its any potential buyers business what her future plans are with the dog in question and if she called every sired puppy. What speaks volumes is this breeder has been breeding for 30+ years, sits on the YTCA, is actively showing to improve the breed, and pretty much is recognized among several other reputable breeders as someone to aspire to. I think we just can't say to someone don't buy from this person because of this. It's not a big red flag in my opinion. I do wish that you would be a little bit more open minded. The price quoted for the surgery could be the cost of the surgery, just not including anesthesia, blood work, etc. I get that you have experienced having a dog with LPs and having to do surgery etc. But you live in Maryland. This is GA, that's a major difference in some prices for vet services. Some vets may even do LP surgeries and not go the specialist route. I don't think its false info or she's trying to blindside or run a scam on any potential buyer. She was upfront and gave information.

If she continues to breed a dog with LP that makes her a bad breeder period. I have been through LP surgery on both legs with my girl. There have also been threads asking how much it costs and everyone who replayed from all over the US all said over $1000. A regular vet can not do this surgery and many people have come to this board who a regular vet did do the surgery and they ended up having to go to to an orthopedic surgeon and having the surgery redone. A regular vet should never do LP surgery. The owners to the other dogs sired by this male should be warned to keep and check on and watch there dog knees carefully because it's the right thing to do. People tend to think just because your a breeder who shows or is part of the ytca that you are a god or something but those type or people mess up to and will do things not right. It is my opinion a reputable breeder does not breed a dog with LP because that is absolutely not bettering the breed!

Your'e entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine. I fully recommend the breeder and although the situation is not ideal, discussion with the breeder, view of another puppy and meet towards a solution would be a good thing.

I think it's time to close the thread.

Just because someone has an opinion other then yours? I'm sorry you have not had to watch a dog suffer from LP and the suffer from getting the surgery but it really sucks. They have to cut away pieces of the bone and put pins in. Do you know how bad it hurts for your bone cut on? Do you know how depressed a dog can get from having to be crated for 8 weeks or more no matter what you do to try and make them happy and get them out of the crate? Have you had to doubt yourself because they were in pain so you got the surgery then they got an infection, then the incision split open and then the pins cause pain but they could not remove them for months even though they were hurting? If you haven't had to go through that then you have no idea how serious and how painful LP and the surgery can be. It should not be sugar coated and it should not be ok to set dogs up to have to go through that! LP surgery is rough and it's painful!

My gut tells me that Lovetodream88 is correct. I spoke with a Yorkie expert on the board of the club. I also spoke with my vet this afternoon. Both said that the $350 surgery is not done by an orthopedic surgeon, but a regular vet that only does a "tacking of the ligament" and not a real repair. I was told that often, after this "tacking" the pup will need the expensive surgery.

Please do not close this thread. I need all of your suggestions. You all have been quite helpful.

Thank you.

I agree with you and Taylor, why take a chance? I would lovvvveeeeee a vet that charged me that price....I paid soooooo much more. I also have received pm's from other breeders who don't want to cause trouble....all I can say is LP can show up early or late but if I hadn't paid as much as I have for mine....and if I had a smidgen of a chance NOT to get a pup without LP or from a breeder who doesn't breed their LP dogs....I just wouldn't go with this breeder, sorry.


Great to see so many opinions!!

First the breeder did the ethical thing and reported a problem with this puppy to you before you bought him and totally fell in love with your puppy.


An LP surgery at $350 is very low cost indeed, even if a general vet does the surgery. I think that if you call orthopaedic surgeons in your area and ask for a price range for the surgery you will probably come up with $1000+ or more. I also highly recommend LP surgery be done by a specialist and not a general vet, unless this general vet has 1000's of successful LP surgeries under their belt.


It is not un-common to have future problems like ACL tears that again will require surgery down the road. In terms of pet insurance as LP is a pre-existing condition you could not get insurance coverage for LP surgery.


Grades 1 and 2 LP are considered mild with grade 1 rarely requiring surgery, and Grade 2s more likely to down the road some years.


Whilst most breeders would agree that LP in both knees especially Grades 3 and 4 ddx'd young - prior to 4 -5 months old, is likely inherited, milder Grades and especially only in one knee are more dubious. It is fairly well-known that environmental factors can worsen an existing LP, and or create a Grade 1 LP in a pup that merely started out with *loose* knee/s. Such as, too much jumping especially onto slippery surfaces, the jumping up and down in one spot again on slippery surfaces (such as hardwood floor, ceramic tile, etc). Too much weight gain too fast, and just overall being obese,coupled with lack of adequate and age appropriate exercise. And as such the owner may create or worsen the condition.


It is quite possible that the sire which ended up with LP started out just fine and even 3 0r 4 years down the road this LP was ddx'd. Whether she would breed this dog again, will depend on a whole lot of factors, likely causative nature of his LP, health of the previous litters he has sired and the incidence rate of LP in his off-spring, his overall general health, and the other very important qualities he brings to the breeding pool.




I would thank the breeder for her frankness, and quite simply *pass* on this puppy. I really don't want to buy a likely future and expensive and painfull problem down the road.

Taylor Honey, I wasn't suggesting closing the thread because of difference of opinion. It was because of tone and heat in the messages. But that's neither here nor there at this point because AtlantaMom is learning something and would like to get further opinions. If not closed then maybe moved to breeder referral section.

I have been fortunate not to experience any orthopedic issues in any of the animals I've owned however I don't think that diminishes anything I have to say or information I'm interpreting. I hate to see any animal suffer. No one wants that.

But to say this isn't a reputable breeder goes against what I believe to be in fact true. If I had not purchased from Tina, I would have purchased with TyAVA. If I have been presented with the same scenario, I would proceed with the same information Ive suggested to the OP.

If vet prices, surgeries differ thats fine too. I'm happy the OP talked with their vet to get further information yet that's why she may be inclined to look at another puppy, different set of parents, etc. May even prompt further questions about OFA testing or what have you.

All I would like to proceed with is let's not bash the breeder or say they aren't reputable because of this issue. Maybe I feel this way because I know people who have a Tyava dog, and they are living healthy lives and the experience has been well worth it. Its good to have the bad with the good so one gets a full picture but to just hammer it down "This is not a reputable breeder" seems wrong to me.

Good Perspective:thumbup:

An ethical/reputable breeder does not breed dogs known to throw LP issues quite frankly.

I am no expert by any means and have no personal experience with LP, but I would think most "bad breeders" would not have told her about the LP, sell her the dog anyway, and when she found out from her vet the pup had LP do nothing about it. But that's just my opinion. Most people on here that bought from bad breeders found out after the fact of buying the pup and the breeder could have cared less because they already have the money. Either way, I would not buy the puppy knowing I might have to see the poor thing have to go through such a paining surgery.

And it seems wrong to me for you to say my opinion is wrong! I also feel your brushing off the whole LP surgery thing, it is way over the price quoted and that was even confirmed by the potential buyer. It is not ok to breed dogs with LP having a dog effected with this I am very passionate on it. If she continues to breed a dog with LP it is my opinion that is not a reputable breeder. LP is a big problem in yorkies and just brushing it off like that isn't good. Breeding to better the breed would not be breeding a dog with LP. Obviously if she does not breed the dog again then she could be a good breeder but if she keeps breeding a dog with LP then my opinion is that she is not a reputable breeder. I also am a little worried about her lack of knowledge of LP.

I'm interested to see what the breeder says about this issue.

What does the YTCA say about Breeder Members
 

I'm sad to hear that little guy has a problem, we saw him when we picked up Winston on Sunday and he is adorable.
My view is that them informing you of this problem prior to you buying and falling in love with him indicates that they are reputable breeders. She may have been wrong on the amount of money it would cost, but she did let you know there was an LP issue so you could make an informed decision.
I'm sorry to say I'd pass on the little guy. Good luck.

Some of this doesn't make sense to me. First of all who diagnosed the dog with grade 2 LP, and who recommended surgery? Dogs with grade 2 don't usually need surgery, and if they need surgery it's well over $350, closer to $1600. I'm not sure that I would say it's unethical to breed a dog with LP, it depends on the grade and other things, but a good breeder probably could answer this better.

Having a puppy with a Grade 2 LP is much different than having an adult dog with a grade 2 LP. Additionally, dogs with known LP should not be breed. http://cal.vet.upenn.edu/projects/sa..._81/81mast.htm

LP that presents later is life is much different than a puppy with LP.

But I think the issue here is more that this is a puppy with a Grade 2 LP and a vet that will do surgery on a 16 week old puppy for $350. I've never ever heard of such a young puppy with a Grade 2 LP needing surgery let alone that surgery costing $350. This is not adding up to me and I am now questioning why the puppy would have been DXed at such a young age is LP requiring surgical repair. Additionally, the grading of LP is subjective to the vet upon examiniation is it not :confused:

Wow! I should proofread better! I meant to say that it doesn't always show up when they are puppies!

[QUOTE=megansmomma;4492784]But I think the issue here is more that this is a puppy with a Grade 2 LP and a vet that will do surgery on a 16 week old puppy for $350. I've never ever heard of such a young puppy with a Grade 2 LP needing surgery let alone that surgery costing $350. This is not adding up to me and I am now questioning why the puppy would have been DXed at such a young age is LP requiring surgical repair. Additionally, the grading of LP is subjective to the vet upon examiniation is it not :confused:[/QUOTE]



Not only subjective but based upon the skill and expertise of the general vet.


I think that we don't know if he was recommending surgery on a 16wk old pup, but that he could do surgery for an LP repair (presumably if necessary) and the cost was $350. At least that is what I remember from the OP post she said the "vet she recommends for the surgery charges $350" This statement appears to be tied into that the breeder would only discount the dog for an amount less than $350 maybe it was $200.


I take from the OP's post that the breeder would advise the buyer if symptoms warrant down the road, using her general vet for LP repair and that is what he charges.

I'm not really sure that it's a good idea to pay $1800 for a pup that has a luxating patella.

Taken from this website:

Knee Problems In Your Dog - Patellar Luxation - Luxating Patella

Grade 2

Grade II pets have less stable knees. The kneecap can be massaged back into its groove - but it pops back out again once the knee is manually flexed or after the pet has taken a few steps. With time, many of these pets will develop knee pain and arthritis associated with their problem.

If your pet only suffers from a grade 1 condition, it should do fine without surgery. However, the higher the grade, the more likely your pet is to eventually develop arthritis in the knee leading to pain. We cannot predict which pets will develop painful knees in grade 2. The problem with delaying surgery in these pets is that arthritis, once it occurs, is irreversible. I am inclined to suggest lateral collateral ligament reinforcement to my clients with young-to-middle age pets in this situation to avoid this. This is because collateral ligament surgery in your pet is a relatively non-intrusive, safe surgery. It is often successful and does not preclude more extensive surgery later if it does not solve the problem.

No.

I do not believe that pets that limp only occasionally (grade 1) need surgery. Grade 2 pets are a harder decision. They probably do not need surgery either. Just feed them a balanced diet, keep them lean, keep their toenails trimmed short. Give them a chondrotin/glucosamine supplements if you wish. If you do elect surgery for these pets, there are minimally invasive arthroscopic techniques that you might consider.



Has she given you the name of the vet that she is recommending for the surgery? Perhaps you could look him/her up or call the office to see how experienced they are with luxating patella surgery. $350 is super cheap.

They will develop arthritis with our without the surgery.

I am not even going to chime in about the breeder except to say that a discount of $200 is ludicrous and her quoted price of $300 for LP repair is scary...who is she recommending for the surgery, a butcher? Seriously, that is just unbelievable.

Tell her that you want the opinion of a board certified orthopedic specialist and don't give her a nickel until she gets that. I can promise you it is more than $2,000 to repair LP.

Someone said that LP grade 2 is not a surgical issue; but I disagree. In adult dogs they often don't recommend surgery because the CCL is already worn so the new recommendation by most boarded surgeons is not to repair unless it is a severe issue because often the ligament will tear anyway and that means the pup needs another operation. Stress for the pup and more money for the owner. Puppies with LP should be repaired from what I understand.....they are young and have not had the wear and tear on their ligaments.

Personally I would walk away. But, if you really want this pup, my advice is to do what I suggested and NOT pay $2,000 to that breeder!

You can find a board certified surgeon on this website:

www.acvs.org

Taylor I have had a dog not a yorkie but a Pomeranian with patellas above a grade 4 that my vet said would be a waste of money doing the surgery. that was back when she was a year old she passed at 10 years from kidney failure. But for you to say someone is a bad breeder based on your experience is just wrong. I know Ava personally and she would not breed a dog with bad patellas knowingly. I would bet when she found out the issue she stopped using the male. Also how would you know if she has or has not contacted other owners of puppies from this sire. Also as far as the cost of LP surgery. Like a previous poster said you live in Maryland and Ava lives in Georgia. She could have a good relationship with her vet and seeing as she is a breeder she probably gets a discount. So before you start a witch hunt get the facts first.

[QUOTE=maggiesmom_2007;4492954]Taylor I have had a dog not a yorkie but a Pomeranian with patellas above a grade 4 that my vet said would be a waste of money doing the surgery. that was back when she was a year old she passed at 10 years from kidney failure. But for you to say someone is a bad breeder based on your experience is just wrong. I know Ava personally and she would not breed a dog with bad patellas knowingly. I would bet when she found out the issue she stopped using the male. Also how would you know if she has or has not contacted other owners of puppies from this sire. Also as far as the cost of LP surgery. Like a previous poster said you live in Maryland and Ava lives in Georgia. She could have a good relationship with her vet and seeing as she is a breeder she probably gets a discount. So before you start a witch hunt get the facts first.[/QUOTE


Oh Please....your friendship does not make her a good breeder, that's just nonsensical.

I got my Ripley from TyAva and don't regret it one ounce. She was so knowledgeable and they care about their pups. They have many Champions and breed for the better of Yorkies. She is very protective of her line and has been breeding Yorkies for 30 years. Do we even know if this is her first issue with this defect? It could be. Maybe she will not breed the parents any longer now that this has shown up, do we even know that?

Personally I think that if she didn't tell the OP about the LP it WOULD make her a bad breeder. But, she did tell her giving her options.

I will state that I would not choose this puppy - as you can never know if it will be ok. Especially not for the price she is quoting. She should come down considerably more if you are thinking of taking this pup.

Talk to them...ask questions. If you are uncomfortable, the don't purchase one. Good luck.