I don't know, I have been lucky I guess because both yorkies and the papillon ears stood with no problem. All three of them had up ears when I got them, and though Sabre did need a little help because of the weight of his fur, shaving his ear down did the trick.
The papi is teething again, so we have a bad dog... (the family joke is we know when she's thinking about being a bad dog because one of her ears starts to flop), but her ears will go up again, and papi breeders say if they start with their ears up, they'll end with their ears up.
The Vit C I first heard about from a miniature bull terrier breeder, and then I have seen it off and on again through the years, primarily through the book of Wendell whatever his name is in one of those links, lol.

By the way, I did see that site, but I have no idea what this guys credentials are. How does he have the authority to "provide dog owners with facts about dog breed specific nutritional requirements based on 18 years of Pharmacological testing which identified each dog breed's specific nutritional requirements". as he states?

He says on his site " In the 1970's and 1980's the U.S. Government published many studies that confirmed his findings. These can be found in the 1985 National Research Council book, Nutrient Requirements of Dogs". What were these findings? Where were these finding published? In what journal were they peer reviewed?
We know it for a fact that two different breeds of dogs have different nutritional requirements. However, the fact remains that two different dogs within the same breed can have different nutritional requirements as well.
If someone is going to say something like that, I'm going to say where is your proof. And how, by the way, did he study the nutritional needs of 180 different breeds of dogs? With what groups did he work with? Where there any controls?
I read his site and pretty much dismissed them, because he likes to state many things as facts without backing them, or he uses facts to cause an assumption of cause effect with a number of his statements.
For example, in his free book he has this statement.
"Another negative aspect of giving vitamin C to a healthy dog is the risk taken when we replace one of the functions of a healthy dog's liver (producing the vitamin C that its own body requires).
By adding vitamin C to the dog's diet we can cause the dog's liver to stop working as it should. This can best be equated to feeding thyroid medication to a dog with a normal thyroid gland."

We DO know that thyroid medication can cause a reduction in thyroid production... Now where is the proof that supplementing Vit C can do the same thing in dogs? Because B is a fact, does not make A a fact, yet he has linked them, and taken something that is factual to back his argument.
That's fine. But I have never heard of this guy as any kind of authority.
As with anything, I highly suggest speaking to your vet, and with experienced breeders of your breed to find out if a course of action is plausible for the results you want.

Okay here's what you need to do. If the puppies ears were up and now they are down you have a vitamin difficiency. What type of food are you feeding? I would go with a holistic meal, like Halo or blue buffalo. Secondly you need a puppy multivitamin just a simple one to jump start it. Then shave the hair on the ears to reduce the weight and tape them up.

I can't edit, because of the time, but this guy is full of it.
If you look in his site, he says quite clearly that you cannot compare humans to dogs, and we know this is true. THEN he goes on and says this..
"It is not just the raw meat that can cause today's domesticated dog harm. Raw vegetables can also do damage. The Glycemic Index of Foods (Internet web site at www.glycemic.com) shows that raw carrot can cause the pancreas to produce much more insulin than the same amount of cooked carrot. The overload of insulin will then cause the dogs liver to have problems the same as a diabetic human would experience. The Glycemic Index of Foods list over 1,000 raw and cooked meats and vegetable food sources and shows us that we MUST choose what we put into an animals diet with care. We are seeing an increase in the number of diabetic dogs and the correlation between the growing popularity of feeding dogs a raw food diet and this disease can not be ignored."
The site that he links is for PEOPLE (there IS a link for pet foods there though). How does he correlate that because did he not say that what goes for people you cannot assume goes for animals?
Now I followed the link, I looked around the site, I could not find the information I was looking for, which was the glycemic index of carrots.. So I did a search for glycemic index of carrots. Interestingly enough that site did not come up on the first page. What did come up is this..
"The glycemic index is a numerical scale that ranks foods and beverages on their potential to raise your blood sugar and your insulin levels. Foods and beverages that rank above 70 are considered "high GI" foods and are likely to raise your blood sugar rapidly. Foods and beverages that fall below 55 on the scale are considered "low GI" foods and are not likely to raise your blood sugar quickly or any sizable amount.
Unlike some foods, the glycemic index of carrots can vary to a fairly significant degree. According to Harvard Medical School, carrots have a glycemic index ranking of 47, plus or minus 16. There are many factors that go into determining the glycemic index ranking of a food, including how much the food is cooked and how much the food is processed. Cooked carrots, for instance, have a glycemic index of 39. Fresh 100 percent carrot juice has a glycemic index of 45. Canned carrots that have been processed would likely be among the higher GI types of carrots."
Then there is this..
"Dr. Jonny Bowden, Ph.D., a clinical nutrition specialist and author of the book "The 150 Healthiest Foods on Earth," suggests that you should absolutely not let the glycemic index of carrots deter you from eating them, even if you are on a diet. Bowden explains that glycemic load, rather than the glycemic index, is a far more significant measuring stick for how a food affects your blood sugar and insulin levels. Dr. Bowden points out that carrots have a glycemic load of 3, which he calls "ridiculously low." Despite the low-to-moderate glycemic index rating, carrots are very unlikely to significantly affect your blood sugar. If you are a diabetic, please talk to your doctor if you have not been eating carrots and wish to add them to your diet."

From The Glycemic Index Of Carrots | LIVESTRONG.COM

I completely agree that he's got some facts correct but quite obviously most of his conclusions wrong...likely a fear factor advertising technique. He is absolutely SELLING 'a product' and that is most certainly a determining factor for me...the 'gain/loss' vs. 'truth' factor...not to mention that I could easily critique what he wrote into a volume of my own. :p:D

From my research, Dr. Jonny Bowden is absolutely correct in that it is not the GI that must be focused on. Way too much emphasis is being put on the Glycemic Index...whole diet plans are being sold on TV based on the GI, and while the GI is interesting, it is also not completely accurate since every food is not 'standardized' in its nutritional content across every stick of celery or carrot or lettuce leaf.

It is also not 'the feeding of raw' that causes issues. Feeding cooked reduces some benefits of some foods, but with carrots, for example, certain benefits are gained from raw, while there are other benefits from cooked carrots. It is absolutely NOT carrots, etc., that cause diabetes. The 'cause' is known and has been for longer than I have been alive.

Since, there is a huge difference between a whole carrot and a 'carrot extractive' or chemical synthesized to emulate the 'active ingredient' that is beneficial in a 'natural' carrot...then selling the stripped out particle as a 'carrot' supplement, so...my musing was completely related to the 'chemicals' being used as supplementation for Vitamin C enhancement and replacement when there is inadequate supplies naturally. We know there are multiple ways to get natural Vitamin C, and many different Vitamin C supplement types, including the esters.

Today's food supply is so lacking in so many ways and has so much stuff that should not be consumed at all that supplementation (as well as detoxification) is sometimes beneficial and/or essential. I prefer natural supplementation (a raw, steamed, or juiced carrot) rather than chemical supplementation (a chemically compounded pill). I am aware that certain sources of Vitamin A (not carrots...lol) can be quite harmful to humans, for example, and I was just wondering if you or anyone else was aware of a 'proper' (for a canine and/or /Yorkie) product/food/supplement source/brand to obtain Vitamin C for those Yorkies that appear to need it. I know canines are 'stressed' nutritionally, as are humans, today.

Curiosity...on my part...but I do want to thank you for all the work you did. I am sure many will gain benefit by the information you have so thoughtfully provided. This can be a seriously confusing subject. Thanks, again. :)

I love a good scientific controversy! ;) Evidently, dogs are capable of producing their own vitamin C, so it's not necessary to add it to the diet. Here is a quote from that National Research Council book, Nutrient Requirements of Dogs, which can be found here ( Nutrient Requirements of Dogs, Revised 1985 with tiny, tiny print):

"There is no adequate evidence to justify recommendation of routine vitamin C additions to the diet of the normal dog."

Now, having said that, I haven't read up yet on Vitamin C toxicity or the benefits of adding Vitamin C to the diet to get ears to stand up, but I'll do that and get back to you :).

More on Vitamin C for dogs can be found at this website (and others, if you google it):

Vitamin C Overdose in Dogs | eHow.com

Purpose of Vitamin C in Dogs

Vitamin C, also known as ascorbic acid, is responsible for a dog's immune system, blood and skin, collagen, and vitamin E production.



Natural Vitamin C

Dogs naturally produce vitamin C in their bodies. Every day, a dog will produce approximately 18 mg of vitamin C per pound. This means that a sixty pound dog will produce more than 1000 mg on their own each day. That's more than two supplement tablets, 500 mg each.



Vitamin C Supplements

There are a number of over-the-counter supplements available for dogs. Vitamin C supplements are oftentimes combined with other minerals and nutrients, like glucosamine. Supplements are typically in tablet form, in 325 mg and 500 mg strengths.



Uses for Vitamin C Supplements

It is not recommended to provide a daily vitamin C supplement to a dog, unless otherwise directed by a veterinarian. Because dogs naturally produce vitamin C, a supplement used long term can be detrimental to the natural production of the vitamin. Using vitamin C in a strong dose over a short period of time to help treat a specific ailment, such as an injury or infection, is appropriate and can be beneficial.



Overdose Dangers

The danger of vitamin C overdosing is that symptoms may not appear until permanent damage has been done. Damage can range from the inability to naturally produce his own vitamin C, to developing calcium oxalate crystals or stones in the urinary tract.

Glad your Bentley's ears are up. My Bentley still has the lazy right ear. :( Going to do another round of taping this weekend.

Hahahahaha...not exactly a "controversy" and maybe not even all that "scientific"...not from my perspective, anyway. I have worked with and know a lot of scientists in various fields, and I like science, but I am not a "scientist" (or "natural philosopher"...the original name before the word "scientist" was 'invented'...lol). I'd call this more like a friendly, objective, discussion. :D

I hope this is not a 'true' hijacking of the OP's thread...and if so, I apologize to the OP, and maybe should be on its own, but I appreciate the information. I have wondered why some of these things are used to help Yorkie ears come up myself...and how and why they work when they do.

Some of what I believe I have discovered to be true:

Dogs and cats, unlike humans, do actually manufacture Vitamin C. However, as I understand it, "ascorbic acid" is merely a component compound of the "whole" Vitamin that was named Vitamin C...and the first compound isolated out of Vitamin C. There are different 'forms' of "ascorbic acid" too and various sources of Vitamin C. I think some of the confusion comes in due to the 'supplements' industry/market. A "supplement" in pill form is (almost?) never a "whole" product, and typically is isolated/manufactured/chemically compounded/synthesized from various sources depending on the manufacturer...which also helps explain some of the varying prices, so if getting 'into' supplementation, I'd guess I'd have BUNCHES more to read...lmao...and I am not entirely there, and this is partly WHY I do minimal "supplements" but look for the 'supplement' in it's whole, original, NATURAL package. Vitamin C, for example, exists in rich quantities in paprika and cayenne, so I might 'supplement Vitamin C' by putting paprika and/or cayenne in/on my food, etc. Make sense? But...that's just me...:D

To my knowledge, there is NO toxicity with true Vitamin C. I am unsure if there is toxicity with "L-ascorbic acid" or "calcium ascorbate" or "magnesium ascorbate" or...all of which might be labeled "Vitamin C" and, well, you can maybe see what I mean. I am not necessarily saying that "ascorbic acid" is "good" or "bad"...just saying that "Vitamin C" is 'different' and I personally would be extremely cautious with large quantity supplementation for my Yorkies...less so with myself...:eek:;)...where more testing and experience are available...when supplementing with ascorbic acid. I would want to make sure I was using a proper compound for a canine...because, like all of here at YT, :2hearts2: I LOVE MY BABIES :2hearts2: and would not ever want to make an assumption and implement a solution based on an incorrect assumption that might genuinely be harmful.

To complicate further...and this is what I would do if I did use actual supplements...there are other moderating compounds that assist things like Vitamin C, A, and E...such as ALA. Water soluble vitamins and supplements may be excreted when taken in excess via liver and kidneys, since the body is a 'demand' system, but I would want to minimize the impact as well...only give what is needed, maybe a handful of mg more or less. Govt health organizations very often 'recommend' considerably less than what is actually needed as a 'daily required amount'...reasons to possibly explain this phenomenon are a separate discussion...so I wouldn't probably trust those. What I would do is use a whole food, preferably as clean of pesticides, no GMO, etc. as possible to supplement and let nature pick and choose the parts it wants and needs. If I felt I needed a supplement, it would be temporary and I would add the helpers while supplementing...I would take ALA with ACE to "refresh" them so I need less and my vital organs do less work. Make sense? Again, that's just me...:D

Hi, I'm a scientist, but unfortunately, I'm a geneticist, not a veterinarian :cry:. But I LOVE scientific discussions!!! :) I think that the reasoning behind vitamin C supplementation for ear raising is that vitamin C aids in cartilage formation (cartilage is what holds the ears upright). That said, I don't know if there are any studies that show that vitamin C helps ears raise, and my understanding is that in normal, healthy dogs, vitamin C supplementation is not necessary (because dogs produce their own vitamin C) and could have adverse consequences. Here's another article on vitamin supplements for dogs from webmd that was produced in consultation with veterinarians:

Dog Vitamins and Supplements: Nutrition, Joint Health, and More

I agree with the poster who said that if you are going to try to supplement your puppy's vitamins, look to natural sources. Just be sure that the natural source is something that is not toxic to dogs, because certain foods that humans eat (like chocolate and onions) ARE toxic to dogs.

Hey, good to know you are a geneticist. :) We must talk more...or you must talk and I will listen and ask questions...:p. I LOVE GENETICS! I have 'studied' many subjects, and love these types of objective, investigative, theorizing discussions, but, I am still not a scientist! :D Whatever is given should be something that is not harmful. I am very interested in the addition of Vitamin C...I thought "up ears" was "genetic" and did not see a connection when ears are taped...or why it works...and sometimes it does not. That may be part of the reason...very interesting...thank you. :)

Hey, navillusc, I've only been on YorkieTalk for a few days, but I'm sure you'll see me around the forums in the future :). I'm pretty good at nutrition, because I studied human nutrition, and I'm good at discussing DNA markers and genetic diseases. I might have studied to be a doctor if I weren't afraid of blood, LOL! I do like to look for corroborating evidence and reputable links that provide further information, but if I mess up, don't be afraid to call me out. See you around!

LMAO I am not afraid of blood, and I thought about the doctor thing myself, but there are some other icky things about doctoring, too...not just the blood. Yes...I will see you around most certainly! Take care! :p

I am sure your Bentley's ear will go up. He is still young and probably teething. I was panicking because mine was turning 1yr old and I was feeling as if the older he got, the less of a chance it would go up. I think today is day 3 and it is still up. It does flop when he walks though, so, I am not going to get too excited just yet.

I have the same problem...Jersey is 10mths old now and one ear still flops after one day. ::sigh:: back to taping....

Same here, Maggie is 8 1/2 months old and her right ear decided to flop around Easter. When she looks up at me it goes up but any other time it's down. The groomer trimmed her ears but didn't shave them, so I think I'll try that and see what happens.