No I don't always know best but the people who have done the research I read do as well as the ytca. Sometimes there are breeders who could also use education to better them selves or just simply a person looking for a breeder who reads this thread.

These little ones sure are cute!!! I just love little puppy faces!

I'm confused...why the freaking out? I thought most puppies leave the nest at 8 weeks as a minimum? LOL :rolleyes:

Small dogs develope slower then big dogs and are still learning from the mothers at 12 weeks. If I was on my computer I would post the links. One of them is from the humane society.

[QUOTE=Lovetodream88;4179725]Vets can not know every breed and what is best for each breed and I have even heard many vets who say they go by what each breed club suggest. There is a lot of research that shows 12 weeks is best for so many reasons. Why not just give them the best start possible and keep them until 12 weeks. It makes me so sad that someone who is an active member of yt and that has seen the research would continue to do this. Can I ask why your not a member or the Yorkshire Terrier Club of America?[/QUOTE]


I have no idea what that club is, and what does this have to do with anything?

[quote=dawn27;4179796]You don't know the ytca? I thought just about everyone on here did. Check it out its ytca.org

[quote=Lovetodream88;4179801]Ok I will, thanks Taylor

I really believe that breed clubs can know more than vets about the breeds they specialize in. You have 1000's of breeders who have been sharing hundreds of years of experience with each other. Twelve weeks is considered the minimum age to surrender a Yorkie pup and other toy breed experts share these thoughts. Eight weeks is fine for larger breeds, but their development is different and it's more than just eating and gaining weight, they are learning other important things from the mother. Good mothers begin the potty training by nudging the pups over to the pee pads, and they also teach inhibition of the biting reflex. Good breeders want to give every opportunity for future success for their yorkie pups and they have found that 12 weeks is the earliest you should give them up. Every breeder can learn something from the mother club; I hope you reconsider selling them so early. I would hope all breeders would encourage their peers to become better breeders. Remember, its not just about their weight, it’s about their maturity level. Read more here: Why do Maltese puppies need to be 12 weeks old before going to a new home??

I'm a little shocked she hasn't heard about the YTCA, that would be the Yorkshire Terrier Club of America, they are the mother club of the Yorkie and set the standard. Right now the website is being revamped so we can't link any information.

This topic has been on debate on so many other threads, too too many to mention and people/new members have left this group do to things getting out of hand. This is not what I want, I will not be getting into a debate with anyone. I will not reply to anyone who insist on taking my discission and making in into something that it is not. I am open to any ones opinion and will gladly read any informational links that are given. But I have made my decision and unless we run into health issues during their next vet visit I am keeping with my decision. I thank you for your concern.

Just to clarify: Ruby is not the one who is taking care of the pups, I am. She no longer cleans there butts, I do. They have been weened for more than two weeks now. Ruby has no interest in them other than to eat their food while they try to dry nurse. I am the one who follows them around cleaning up pee and poo. Im the one that corrects them when they get out of hand biting and growling, not Ruby, she runs from them. I have started the training process, teaching them to sit and fetch and play nice and no bite, not Ruby, but me. So none of you can tell me that they need their mother until 12 weeks of age when she has had no interest in them. I am doing everything for them. I feed them, cleaned them, keep them in a clean safe place, I discipline them and correct them all in order to prepare them to their new lives away form their mother and litter mates and I will continue to do so until the very last moment when I hand them over to their new families.

That is what a good, caring breeder who cares about and loves her puppies does. I am doing everything possible to prepare them to leave my home as a single pup who is no longer part of our family or a litter or who has a mother. Its going to happen regardless if it happens at 8 wks or 12 wks or somewhere in between. Its going to happen and its going to be hard on them as much as it will be on me and my family to see them go. But I am doing everything that I can to get them to the point of being an independent, happy self soothing pup. That is why I do things my way.

Did you do genetic testing on Ruby? Just kinda wondering. Do you also do a spay and neuter contract?

Getting rid of puppies at 8 weeks old, wrong.......IT IS THE DEVELOPMENTAL MATURATION THAT THE PUPPIES GET DURING THE NEXT 2, 3, OR 4 WEEKS that is important. That is the reason you hold on to them!!!!!!! But then when this whole thing started with your pregnant dog,....no xrays before whelping you claimed it was because "In my experience, she looks like 2 maybe 3 puppies"....." another breeder here said, "In MY experience, she looks like 6-7 puppies....". Then after the litter was born, you said, "I was expecting 5 babies, but that 6th one was a surprise"....and another breeder replied, "Actually, in YOUR experience, you were expecting 2-3 babies" Getting rid of babies so you don't have to be responsible for paying for vaccinations, microchipping, etc.....wrong. This smells of making money off the backs of your pups...sorry, but its what I see.

I'm sorry Dawn, I really think in my experience, my knowledge, my research you fall in to a different category. Your explanation doesn't ring right in my ears...as someone who constantly is (outside of YT and within YT) researching and helping to expose breeders who run the kind of breeding program you do...I'm at a loss as to how not to respond, knowing you as I have, but then again people never fail to disappoint me these days.

You waved the taboo flag Loud and Proud in your title of this thread, then say you won't debate? What's to debate? You have with great detail described from beginning to end the type of breeding program you run", your words speak for themselves.

One last thing, I think your momma needs to be spayed and retired, she is telling you by what you describe that she no longer wishes to produce puppies for you....she has no interest...and in your own words you've described that your getting rid of the puppies because you are having to care for them....

Good luck, I wish you would read the threads from the well established and respected breeders here, open your mind and perhaps take an inventory of why your doing what your doing...in their collective experience, and through their own words, your breeding practices are very, very suspect.

I know this will not go over well, I know this, but I can't pretend to not see the huge flag you've waved.

They are out there and on here, as well....unfortunately.

Dawn, you seem like a very nice person, but I'm hoping some of you are here to learn things. Selling on a spay and neuter contract is so important, it's one of the best things a breeder can do to ensure your pups won't be going into a hostile environment. There are seriously many people who will breed them to death, especially if they are AKC. As you know most dogs shouldn’t even be bred, you have no way of knowing at this age if the dogs should be bred, their health, physical traits and personality traits should be evaluated first. It doesn’t sound like you evaluated your breeding female good enough since she rejected her pups and I hope you don’t breed her again, puppies that have a poor mother also make poor mothers and this means none of your females should produce pups. It’s difficult enough to train Yorkies, but not having the proper socialization with the mother and littermates can produce pups that have two of the biggest training issues, housebreaking and biting. There’s no way you could know if the people who bought your pups are responsible enough to be breeders. Good breeders have to check out someone for years before they will consider selling a breeding dog. If indeed, you are selling them on open registration, please think about changing this, it’s one of the most important things you can do to protect the breed!

Are you serious right now? (lynzy420)

Just because you have nothing better to do with your days than to spend countless time looking through my previous threads & posts and quoting me doesn't make you an expert on ME. You or anyone else have any say in how or what I do. You dont know me so you have no right to judge me or tell when I should let my pups go. I am not trying to cause harm to them in any way by sending them to their new families at 8, 9 or 10 weeks of age. Its just the opposite and Im sorry that you dont see it that way.

Its beyond Ridiculous, You are twisting my words to benefit your ridiculous and judgmental views of me. I am not Getting rid of my puppies . . . . I am not tired of caring for them, I care for them because I love them and whant the best for them and it is my responsibility as a breeder to do so. I am trying to prepare them for their new homes by making them independent of Ruby. It is the same thing that every other breeder does, I just choose to do it sooner. Plus I have taken over her mothering duties by choice not fault.

Ruby is an excellent mother. I've had no issues with her when it came to caring for her pups. She didn't leave their side until they were 5 wks old when we started the weening process. It was my decision to keep Ruby away from them. I am the one that made that choice for her in order to start preparing them to be independent of her. So please do not question her as a mother. I didnt just through her and her pups in a cage and forget about them. I am just as much a hands on mother to them as Ruby was. Its just that I took over her mothering position for her. That doesn't make her a bad mother nor does it make me a bad breeder.

Just because I have a different way of doing things and my pups dont get micro chipped or leave here with a full series of shots doesn't make me a bad breeder either. I do more for my pups than most of the breeders I see including the once that my own dogs came from. When I made the choice to breed I wanted to be sure to change the things that I saw that were wrong with the breeders that I found our dogs in as pups in kennels and what not and I have done that.

Regardless of what any of you think about me or my breeding practices I am proud of what I have done and how I raise these pups. I have no doubt that they will be well behaved and loving companions and make wonderful additions to each of their families. I have an open communication policy. They all know that I am hear to help with any concerns they may have an will alway be available to help them.

I thank those of you for your concerns.
Have a wonderful day !!

These are a couple of the behaviors on the mommas part, that reinforces me pulling a female off the breeding program. This is behavior that females present when they are no longer interested in raising and nuturing their babies, and is classic in bitches that are getting too old to have an interest in raising kids! They will tolerate them for 4-5 weeks, but then, "hey, I didnt ask for this, this was YOUR idea of a good time, so now YOU take care of it!" This is a clear indicator this particular female is no longer suitable for breeding....if she was a $5000.00 Ch. show dog that was still actively winning in rings all over the USA, then you may have a little bit of an argument to continue to impose this on her, but no, not Ruby....she has told you as best she can, she wants no part of this. Hoping you are listening to her.... that is what good breeders do with their females.....mutual respect, love, care, and loyality between both the breeder and her ladies. I was curious if you sold those babies limited registration? That is really the only way we reputable breeders have to assure that people with no knowledge about breeding, can not take a pet quality dog and breed it for any kind of profit they can squeeze out of the babies, to anything they can find running down the street. I would check into getting an AKC female that falls within the breed standard for Yorkies, and one that you can dual register with a respected honored registry, such as CKC (Canadian Kennel Club) or UKC (United Kennel Club). Dual registration or even triple registration with these three registeries, projects a more favorable, more respected attitude from prospective buyers.

Oh dear
 

The Yorkie breeders have been conspicuously absent from this post. In part maybe not to create waves, and to give another fellow breeder space to respond as she saw fit.

As most of you know on this thread, I am not a Yorkie Breeder although I do have one intact male who will be bred (by my breeder) when and with whom she has selected for him and always with my permission. How-ever I do breed another breed.

Dawn - I do hope you re-consider letting small Yorkies go at eight weeks, and try to bring your breeding practices more in line with the National Club. The fact that you said you did not know what YTCA was, was quite surprising given the length of time you have been on here. It is also very sad that you don't know enough of the breed you are breeding to learn about all the reputable registeries and all the not so reputable ones, to find out a whole lot of facts about all. Do you for example even have the illustrated standard for the Yorkshire Terrier?

I do reluctantly have to agree with some posters, who pointed out the fact that it can only be assumed you knowingly posted about letting go at eight weeks your recent litter. And in doing so you would have to have thought that it would be a contentious issue.

You should keep front and center that your puppy buyers are quite capable even now of doing a google search, and for example finding this thread.

What you are doing is in contravention of the National Club's policy. And I do believe you know that.

Falling back upon a vet's recommendation that it is okay to let go at eight weeks is no justification; although you obviously think it is.
Vets as we all well know, do not know enough about all breeds to give experienced enough opinions, about each individual breed of dog.

I can tell you that the good breeders of Yorkies that I know personally do not let go at 8wks but 11-12wks old. And as they are for the main part Canadian and our National club sadly doesn't hold forth on when to let a puppy go, yet still it seems they are more in line with the USA National club then you are.

Finally I would like to point out that in an earlier message of yours to this thread you had clearly indicated your bitch wanted nothing more to do with the puppies, that you were the one doing everything. Quite a different story you now tell as a response to some very valid concerns posted, about the fitness of your bitch to be bred again. You now say you interferred with the natural process of things. Seem to indicate you forced your bitch to leave the puppies, to follow "your" schedule.

Only you actually know the truth. There are at times with some bitches who are very delayed in weaning the puppies might warrant action on the breeders part. But why would you do this? In my understanding of Yorkie maturation and breeders that I know, and btw even large breed breeders, for the most part we let the mother lead the way on the weaning process.

In summation Dawn, I do hope you take the time to review your actions, and the postings here with an open mind. An inquiring mind, that asks oneself how can I do better? Criticism is often times the prod that starts us on a wonderfull journey of self inquiry, of learning, and of research.

I have read this thread and walked away. I think it needs to be in the hands of those who have the necessary knowledge and experience with breeding. I think Lynzy, Yorkiemom1, and Gemy have done a good job on presenting information that many can benefit from. Hopefully, this thread will provide the knowledge needed for all involved.

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

If not appreciated by the OP or seen by the OP in the spirit it is given, maybe others that read this thread, in the future, will learn from the information imparted in this thread. We can choose to read books and rules and suggestions for breeding, and decide we have no intention of following such guidelines, but people who are not knowledgable about breeding, need to realize the information is accurate and has been developed from evidenced based research and cases, and not just goofy ideas thrown out there because some breeders like to hear themselves talk or write. If people choose to operate outside recommended guidelines or acceptable practices, that is fine, but newbies need to know the correct way to do something, the acceptable way to do something, and WHY those methods are put out there for us to follow.....they are geared to provide the very best chance for the puppies to develop into the best little citizens they can become!

I personally don't mind Bybs as the op must be, as long as they do things correctly, researching the breed and family history. I breed horses, same idea, breed for quality, even if mixing breeds. Her tactics of force weaning throws red flags my directions. I wouldn't buy a pup from her.

I don't know much about horse breeding, but I know enough to know things are a bit different in the horse world; at least according to my husband who did breed horses.

In the dog world in my definition BYBERS actually don't do things the correct way. They do no testing, they do no pedigree research, they do nothing of what you suggested above; it is the main part of what makes them a byber in the doggie world.

In the doggie world if you mix a "breed" it is no longer purebred. And there are arguments that abound about purebred malaise. Let us save that for another thread.

I agree with you wholeheartedly in any husbandry for almost any kind of animal that will eventually be a companion to humans, force weaning is a very red flag!

You should mind Back Yard Breeders, they contribute to pet overpopulation & prevent adoptable dogs from going to new homes & being euthanized.
From what I've experienced personally & from what I've read, was that most breeders have a hard time keeping the Mom away from the pups. In this case, it's different & makes me wonder if this litter was overwhelming for Ruby & if Dawn should continue breeder her.
Dawn, you have not answered valid questions from Taylor & Nancy...Have you done any testings on your breeding stock & are your pups placed w/a strict spay/neuter contract? You say you are doing things YOUR way, but is that the RIGHT way? Breeding to improve the breed or are you breeding as a source of income?

The testing on the breeding stock should be self evident, ie posted with the reputable health registries, ie CHIC, OFFA, and CERF. You can go to these sites and look up the kennel name to see what if any dogs have any tests.

Spay and neuter contract, if that is not on her site, well I guess you will have to ask her as you have done to respond.
And I would like to remind everyone that in different countries in terms of spay and neuter there is no such thing as a spay and neuter contract. I am not advocating this for North America; but there are extant actual non breeding agreements that could be put into play.

I've walked away several times & agree with every word of this post. Thanks Rhonda for putting into words what so many of us are feeling.

:thumbup:agree totally

I am very thankful for all of the information provided and concern you have shown. I am always open to constructive criticism, but what I will not put up with is the nonsense comments by people who know nothing about me and sit and judge when they dont know the entire story. Nor do I feel like I need to sit down and explain myself to them in order for them to understand that I care about these pups. So, in order to keep my sanity I have to take what some say, those who have make assumptions about me or my choice to breeding and the way I choose to raise my pups and move on. I will take the good and leave the bad but in the end it is still my decision and mine alone.

I will do what I feel is best for them and their new families. It has always been my goal to provide well adjusted, well socialize healthy pups to the people who I have chosen. Im not going to just let an one walk into my home a carry off one of my pups just because they have money in hand. That is just ridiculous. After they find me, I choose them, they dont choose me. I have gone to great lengths to find the perfect families for each of these pups.

Plus, I have not been dishonest about my part in weening the pups. I just don't think that I had to explain every little detail. I have always done it that way. I have made adjustments with each litter that I've had and switched it in order for each individual pups needs in order for them to thrive and move forward at their own pace.

Please do not make any further comment about Ruby. She has been and still is a wonderful mother. I made choices for her and set my own schedule for the pups. If she could of been she would still be by there side day and night. But, than I would have compleat chaos and the pups would be delayed in their development. We had to and we must move forward. I am happy with their progress and feel that they (some) are ready to move on at this point.

Thank you, those who took this thread as it was intended and shared in my Joyful moment and to who offered usefull information and who did not judge me in any way.

I'm moving on and I hope you will too.

Dawn the 'whole" story was not shared by you. And even if we had the "whole" story as told by you, it would not be whole or un-biased; how could it be?

All I can re-iterate when things are calmer in your heart and mind, is to mayhap read this thread again. Hear our concerns; they are multifold.

Again you re-iterate you set the weaning process. But if that female actually on her own lost interest in the pups at 4 or 5 wks along; seriously this is a problem.

Let me share a true story. The mother of Magic now this is a large breed but in this sceanario it is applicable. After her 3rd litter, when she had raised and coddled those pups so well 3 times before. Two things happened with her 4th litter. She walked away from the pups at 4wks old. Wanted nothing to do with them; and she began to growl at her owner/ her breeder when she tried to adjust or change things in the whelping room. Her breeder said to me, she is done. I have spayed her now. She knew that this was not good Mom behaviour. And btw the way this female was OTCH. Obedience Trial Champion of Merit. And for what it is worth a multi conformation champion, and also a service and personal assist dog. She helps her owner, transfer from wheelchair to bed and back again; retreives things, opens fridge doors etc.

So for this bitch to growl at her owner? Unheard of and very worrisome.
The breeder did what was right; the dog had had enough. She was spayed.

Just as I said before .. read again with open and soft mind, with an undertone of wanting to learn to truly hear what others are saying, without a knee jerk re-action to dismiss.