Are you the pack leader?

[Marhcarter]

Originally Posted by yorkietalkjilly

I don't guess I have ever seen with my own eyes out observing feral dogs, wild dog packs, any kind of film footage on TV or read any book or article about an observer seeing, a four-footed pack leader alpha rolling another member of the pack or attacking one. I've never talked to a dog expert who has ever seen one dog alpha rolling another as humans do dogs. Alpha rolling is done voluntarily by a subservient dog wanting to curry favor.

Exactly. I didn't know how to say this, so I left it alone. Thanks for clarifying. This is actually something I learned from watching Victoria Stillwell. I really like the way she does things and I can't think of a single time I have disagreed with something she has said, but there is no way I can provide that kind of consistency with training. It is not just my laziness, although I admit that is a part; it is mostly my 12 hour night shift schedule where I don't work set days and might work 3 nights one week and 6 or 7 the next. I have decided that cleaning up tootsie rolls and the occasional peepee is just not that big of a deal. Huey has brought so much fun and joy to us that it is worth it. Will I do it differently next time? You betcha I will. Live and learn.

[lovespandp]

Originally Posted by kjc

She hasn't updated the going from 1 to 3 thread, did she find homes for the other 2?

I just updated that thread!! Sorry about that, totally forgot-
Yes Peanut is perfectly healthy. No UTI or anything else “health wise”

[lovespandp]

Originally Posted by MandiesMom

Pack leader? Ummm, no.

I used to try but I think I'm too high strung so they don't think I mean it. LOL

I just belong to them, pretty much. It is what it is..I quit trying to make it different because that just means making ME different and after 43 years on this earth...I am woman enough to admit that ain't happenin. lol

LOL

[lovespandp]

Originally Posted by gracielove

I really think the pack leader thing can be over done. While dogs, like kids, need an authority figure they don't need to be dominated.

You might want to try taking Peanut on more walks. Exercise can help them to really empty out their system. I have also had success with tethering a pup (or dog.) You just tether the dog to you so he goes with you where ever you are in the house. I'll bet he won't pee inside while he is with you. A week or so of him being at your side all the time may help break the habit of peeing inside.

Yes that is what I am going to start- walking him everyday, Since he is a male all he wants to do is smell and lift his leg- he will lift his leg to the point of no pee coming out, but he will still do it. After doing it, he will scratch his back legs and ruffle the grass or dirt-

When I walk him he pretty much does what he wants- I read when you walk them to have them be behind you..? also to not let them mark. Let them pee once and then not again. I am going to try to walk him next to me, I will let him pee once, but I will not let him mark everywhere.. I’m going to start doing that daily as well as a couple other things… Not letting him go on the coffee table after we eat- he likes to lick the table for crumbs, also he will sit/ lay in his bed while we eat dinner. I’m not sure about a couple of the things on that list.. sounds like you have to treat your animal like you are in the Army or something- I think a couple things we have let Peanut do has made him think he is in control- so just fixing those things should help a lot!

[yorkietalkjilly]

Originally Posted by Marhcarter

Exactly. I didn't know how to say this, so I left it alone. Thanks for clarifying. This is actually something I learned from watching Victoria Stillwell. I really like the way she does things and I can't think of a single time I have disagreed with something she has said, but there is no way I can provide that kind of consistency with training. It is not just my laziness, although I admit that is a part; it is mostly my 12 hour night shift schedule where I don't work set days and might work 3 nights one week and 6 or 7 the next. I have decided that cleaning up tootsie rolls and the occasional peepee is just not that big of a deal. Huey has brought so much fun and joy to us that it is worth it. Will I do it differently next time? You betcha I will. Live and learn.

I'm lazy with my dogs, too, and let them get away with a lot unless it becomes a problem or I'm correcting a dog's behavior in an area, such as slowly trying to become dominant and causing problems or not coming when called. Then he has to comply every time until he settles back into mostly being good again. But I make him want to and enjoy complying by setting him up so he wins and actually enjoys it. If you don't lead so that you dog is happy and wins, what is the point? Nobody wants one of those puppet dogs except in the military and service situations but they are usually rewarded with lots of fun and good, rough play, extensive exercise! I want a dog to be a dog and enjoy his doggie life. Putting one by on mommie is part of it! Pack leaders in the wild are like that - they will expose their belly when playing and being silly with most of the pack but the one or two members who they are in the process of teaching something may not get such frivolous treatment and the alpha is sterner in how they are treated until they get back in line. Then, when they are compliant and not really acting out, they get cut some slack and accepted just like the rest. There is room for lots of laziness in life and why not!!!

[Teresa Ford]

NILIF - Nothing in Life is Free Program For Dogs

[lovespandp]

Originally Posted by Teresa Ford

NILIF - Nothing in Life is Free Program For Dogs

Do you follow this?

[Teresa Ford]

I so enjoy your posts about Peanut. I gave you a link to the Nothing in Life is Free. The program works. We have used it for many years.In our training program.
I am smiling here, because I think your darling may be spoiled rotten, like my Rubyboy. Ruby will be 13 in Feb. Once in awhile he will mark in the house. Of course I am not a even a serious scolder with my own Yorkies. So Ruby gets very little grief for his 'accidents'. I even had him checked for UTI and bladder stones. No problems. He just wants the other Yorkies to know he is the number one, Mama's little prince. So now when I am not home and running to the store or whatever, if Ruby is not with me he gets a boy didy (belly band). TBumkins makes really nice ones. Isn't funny how the teachers kids are the most spoiled ! LOL ! Hugs, Teresa

[lovespandp]

Originally Posted by Teresa Ford

I so enjoy your posts about Peanut. I gave you a link to the Nothing in Life is Free. The program works. We have used it for many years.In our training program.
I am smiling here, because I think your darling may be spoiled rotten, like my Rubyboy. Ruby will be 13 in Feb. Once in awhile he will mark in the house. Of course I am not a even a serious scolder with my own Yorkies. So Ruby gets very little grief for his 'accidents'. I even had him checked for UTI and bladder stones. No problems. He just wants the other Yorkies to know he is the number one, Mama's little prince. So now when I am not home and running to the store or whatever, if Ruby is not with me he gets a boy didy (belly band). TBumkins makes really nice ones. Isn't funny how the teachers kids are the most spoiled ! LOL ! Hugs, Teresa

Aw thank you- He is very special to me, and I treat him as such- I do believe he is spoiled rotten, and he acts like he is the King of the household! I know he is like he is because of my actions, I don’t blame him for anything really- I usually will just clean the pee or poo without saying anything to him LOL, He will look at me and wait for it, but when it doesn’t come I know he remembers and that is probably why he pees everywhere!! I’m really going to start working with him. I know some of the stuff Cesar says or any other trainer for that matter are more about- you are the human- he is the animal.. I really don’t want to do some of the things listed on the link. ( the one I posted) I think some of those things are acceptable for bigger dogs, smaller dogs are different- at least to me. I know I created a monster and will try to fix him and work with him. The crazy thing is other than his peeing and pooping anywhere he pleases, he is the best dog. He is so polite when we are in public, he is so gentle with children ( he doesn’t like kids, but he is so sweet to them) he is such a little lover, he doesn’t chew anything up, he still has toys from when he was a puppy 5 years ago, he does listen to me when I command him to do something…he loves to learn, as well as he is super smart. He can learn a new trick in a matter of seconds. so I guess somewhere along the line I did something right!!

I agree in the Nothing in life is free- I feel that is more so teaching them how to behave correctly and not just get what they want whenever they want it- I see nothing wrong with him putting some work in to get a treat, to eat.. etc. etc.


I am defiantly going to try the program along with some other tricks. We will have to work together on this one, hopefully I can get a balanced dog out of this!!
I have some belly bands, from Cathy- I tried them… I don’t know what they are really for..?? When I had them on Peanut I thought to myself, he won’t pee in them- when he needs to pee he will go to the door and let me know.. Not at all what happened. This little turkey treated the belly bands like his diaper! He would just pee in them. I’m not sure if that is what they are for.. but I thought to myself.. man if I keep these on him he will lose control of his bladder and just pee whenever. So I stopped putting them on.

[yakkwak]

Originally Posted by Lovetodream88

I am not a big fan of the pack leader thing and don't much believe in it. When Callie would get real hyper and nippy and stuff as a puppy we tried the rolle her over thing and it didn't work for her and we tried a few other things when she was a pup and they never worked. I personally think yorkies are just to smart for it or something. I would start from the beginning with potty training and taking him out every hour or so and making him go pee then treat him for that and keep him confined when inside and if you see him do it tell him a firm no.

The alpha roll-over originated from the Monks of New Skeet, NY, who breed and train their dogs for new homes. The rollover was used EXPERIMENTALLY by one of the monks for very few, training-resistant pups. They responded with criticism to Milan's wide adoption (and making popular) of the technique. The Monks found that the dogs responded out of fear (duhhhh!!) to the rollover, hampering the human-dog bond (again, duhhhh!!) and discontinued the experimental technique. Milan has since recanted his blessing for this technique. Unfortunately for his followers, many haven't received that memo update Milan freely acknowledges that his techniques are based on small number (for you statistics nerds)/anecdotal studies, as opposed to more in-depth and objective research. Please note that this is an FYI only on a specific technique and not a Milan-bash.
Signed, she who read waaaay too much while searching for my Liberty

[yorkietalkjilly]

Originally Posted by lovespandp

Thanks Jeanie !! He is neutered- I will take everything you said and put it to work! He does have some issues with noises- I know he has some insecurity issues.. that I have been trying to work with him on, he was deathly scared of extensions cords- I think because of the noise they make on the floor- I have worked with him on that and he no longer fears them. He has a handful of other things he is scared of- to the point of him running away and hiding in his man cave. ( his crate in the closet). I just recently figured out his peeing all over the house was something more than him not knowing where to go- I have a lot of work to do with my little furrbutt!

Question for you- isn’t the pack leader usually the one who cares for that dog? I was talking to DH last night about this and he was saying he is the pack leader- I told him it is usually the one that cares for the dog.. baths them, feeds them, walks them, etc..

My impression from working with a lot of dogs is the pack leader is the one person that acts with the most authority and confidence in any situation. With a couple, it is usually but not always, the male who is largely the family protector and the one with the lowest, calmest voice and who acts with the most authority. But even packs of wolves or dogs can have two alpha leaders, most often the oldest breeding pair in the wild. So with a couple having dogs, both usually share the pack leader role. We just want to be sure that in each family, for the dog's own sake, he is not the one calling the shots!

[Buster Brown]

Originally Posted by lovespandp

Lol really? How did that change him?

He has to sit and wait for a release command when I put his food down. I would put down the food and he would look to Jack for the release command and not to me that has changed. He would look to Jack for other commands as well now he focuses on me.

[yakkwak]

To OP: forgot to add -research Learning Theory based methods for potty training and really, all training instead of alpha theory based methods. Learning theory is not only more humane, it is science-backed, and most embraced by certified trainers.

[SWHouston]

Ha, I take "small" morsels of food out of my mouth, and feed it to my guys. Most of you will think that's more gross than spitting on their food !

However, I think that scent/action is a VERY powerful Leader "tool" for me. I always feed My Male Sneakers first, then My Female Becca, then My Male Puppy Ichabod, and all three of them sit patiently (now) during that sequence. When each of them were Puppies, they "jumped the gun" trying to be first to receive the morsel, but have learned the "Pecking Order".

I operate/run/control my Pack quite differently than that which Cesar and some "Experts" suggest. I always demand to be Leader, BUT, am very supportive of My Male Sneakers being the Alpha. He's First Dog, Biggest Dog, and MY choice to "lead" his subordinates. I'm not sure if all will understand the leader/alpha difference there. I differ in handling my dogs in several other ways as well. Allowing Sneakers to take "point" ahead of me during a hunt, is another of them.

[yorkietalkjilly]

Originally Posted by yakkwak

Milan has since recanted his blessing for this technique. Unfortunately for his followers, many haven't received that memo update

I'm glad to hear he no longer recommends using that technique though you can't help but notice when you catch his show sometimes that he long ago stopped using it on the shows.

Do you know if he recanted using the alpha roll via email or on a TV show or on his website?