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-   -   What should you expect to find in health warranty and be realistic (https://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/general-yorkshire-terrier-discussion/25221-what-should-you-expect-find-health-warranty-realistic.html)

Sugar's Mom 12-13-2005 03:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugar's Mom
I am not a breeder (yet) nor do I play one of tv. But, I would like to say this even if I have no business in this thread. I do intend to be a responsible breeder in a few years. When I purchased my little maleCeeby, I had looked high and low for a dog with erect ears. I had found one that was already eight or nine months old near my home. He was proced reasonable and within my budget. Only problem his ears had never come up. Seller said he thought it was because he had ear mites as a pup. WELLLLLL, to make a long story short, I jumped on YT and asked you guys about this and most of you, nearly ten to one, stated that the floppy ears was a genetic problem. The rest of you said it was debatable. So based on your advice, I passed that little man up. i didn't want to start my program with a dog with a genetic problem that would be passed on to my pups. I have seen ears come up several weeks after people get their dogs from the breeder. They don't all go up by six weeks. So, my question is why shouldn't it be covered in warranty? Ceeby's ears were erect at six weeks when I picked him up. All his parents and grandparents were on site. They all had erect ears. Now, if I had gotten him home and they had flopped down, it would have been my responsibility to trim them and tape them. But if they were never up and i thought I was buying a dog for breeding purposes with no genetic defects, I would have been highly pi$%$$ at the breeder after learning on here that most of you think it is a genetic defect. Pet only, it wouldn't matter to me but breeding program foundation, it means a lot.
i meant to say at six weeks when I picked him out and paid my deposit. I picked him UP at eight and a half weeks old. Ya'll have to excuse my typos and etc tonight. It is hard to type with a furball in your arms.

YorkyKids 12-13-2005 04:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugar's Mom
But if they were never up and i thought I was buying a dog for breeding purposes with no genetic defects, I would have been highly pi$%$$ at the breeder after learning on here that most of you think it is a genetic defect. Pet only, it wouldn't matter to me but breeding program foundation, it means a lot.
Once again I was speaking for placing a pet/companion Yorkie. Whether the ears are up or down is NOT a health issue for a pet. But it is a BIG problem if you are purchasing a dog to breed. The two issues are very different. The two issues have two entirely different contracts. AND usually there is a huge difference in price of a pet/companion verus a breeding/show dog. Again if I am placing a pet...then I do not guarantee the ears to come up or stay up. Altho most of the time my Yorkies ears do come up and stay errect. A dog sold under a breeding contract is a whole different thing. Hey we ARE dealing with genetics after all what would you have breeders do with their floppy ear puppies? Not all ears do come up naturally. Even after 5 generations I still have a puppy ocassionly who's ears are floppy. Even Yorkies with floppy ears deserve loving forever homes. Again I thought we were speaking and discussing HEALTH issues. Please somebody help me. I can converse on both topics.

YES if you purchased your Yorkie on a BREEDING contract then you have every right to expect the ears to be errect.

Sugar's Mom 12-13-2005 05:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by YorkyKids
Once again I was speaking for placing a pet/companion Yorkie. Whether the ears are up or down is NOT a health issue for a pet. But it is a BIG problem if you are purchasing a dog to breed. The two issues are very different. The two issues have two entirely different contracts. AND usually there is a huge difference in price of a pet/companion verus a breeding/show dog. Again if I am placing a pet...then I do not guarantee the ears to come up or stay up. Altho most of the time my Yorkies ears do come up and stay errect. A dog sold under a breeding contract is a whole different thing. Hey we ARE dealing with genetics after all what would you have breeders do with their floppy ear puppies? Not all ears do come up naturally. Even after 5 generations I still have a puppy ocassionly who's ears are floppy. Even Yorkies with floppy ears deserve loving forever homes. Again I thought we were speaking and discussing HEALTH issues. Please somebody help me. I can converse on both topics.

YES if you purchased your Yorkie on a BREEDING contract then you have every right to expect the ears to be errect.
Sorry to have confused you. I am just now learning all this stuff. I wasn't even aware that there are separate contracts. Thankfully, my breeder is very experienced and knowledgable. She knew I was looking for a male to breed. I bet you have wonderful puppies. I am now actively searching for a female. I have learned so much on here that i hope I know how to pick the right one now. I just wish some of you gals lived closer to me so I could buy from one of you. You are right, yorkies with floppy ears do deserve wonderful homes and they are cute. Just not for me. But I am sure if it accidently happened or Ceeby's go down when teething and don't come back up, I won't love him any less. He is my forever baby now no matter what. I would mjust have to have him neutered and try again for a breeder. Again, sorry if you thought I was off topic. The floppy ears things people were posting just kind of jumped out at me. Didn't mean to cause trouble by my question.

YorkieRini 12-13-2005 05:30 PM
If you are looking for sound breeding quality or show you will need to wait till 6 months or so to have ears guaranteed..at least 6 months if not more. If not, then you run the risk of buying something that ends up not show/breeding quality and you will have to place it as a pet and start over..something I've done several times. They didn't force me to buy the puppy.

YorkyKids 12-13-2005 05:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugar's Mom
You are right, yorkies with floppy ears do deserve wonderful homes and they are cute. Just not for me. But I am sure if it accidently happened or Ceeby's go down when teething and don't come back up, I won't love him any less. He is my forever baby now no matter what.
Hey don't be sorry. I think this thread was started as a learning tool for breeders and buyers alike. But here's another tip you should not evaluate breeding stock at 8 or even 12 weeks. You should wait until the dog/bitch is at least 6 months old. And another thing about droopy ears. I NEVER tape ears. I do keep them shaven and clean. But I want to SEE what the genetics are therefore I never tape or prop the ears in any way. If they turn out to be droopy or floppy then so be it! They are then destined to become much loved pets. I placed a 6 month old Yorkie girl last week who had floppy ears. I placed her for a reduced price because of her ears. This young woman was absolutely delighted and instantly in love with this Yorkie. She had looked and looked for months for a healthy Yorkie she could afford. She had even post-poned her wedding while she was saving money for her YORKIE. I told her about the ears ahead of time and the only question she asked was "does she look like a Yorkie". LOL It was a match made in heaven for this young woman and for my floppy eared gal!

BamaFan121s 12-14-2005 06:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugar's Mom
So, my question is why shouldn't it be covered in warranty? ... But if they were never up and i thought I was buying a dog for breeding purposes with no genetic defects, I would have been highly pi$%$$ at the breeder after learning on here that most of you think it is a genetic defect.
My feeling is they shouldn't be covered because they do not threaten the dog's health and well-being...only it's look. That would be like giving a guarantee on the type of coat the dog will have as an adult. You say because it's genetic? Every aspect of a dog is genetic. Every physical characteristic that a dog developes is due to genetics. There should never be a reason to blame the breeder (if he/she is a GOOD breeder) because as the potential owner, you should take responsibility for learning the aspects and characteristics of a dog you plan to breed. If ears concern you that much, look for a dog that is older--to a point that if the ears are ever going to stand up, they are doing so. Of course you don't get a young puppy, but how are you supposed to be able to tell what the dog will physically look like when it gets older? Would you blame the breeder if the dog didn't have the coat coloring you wanted as an adult? I would hope not. To me, it is along the same line.

Sugar's Mom 12-14-2005 11:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BamaFan121s
My feeling is they shouldn't be covered because they do not threaten the dog's health and well-being...only it's look. That would be like giving a guarantee on the type of coat the dog will have as an adult. You say because it's genetic? Every aspect of a dog is genetic. Every physical characteristic that a dog developes is due to genetics. There should never be a reason to blame the breeder (if he/she is a GOOD breeder) because as the potential owner, you should take responsibility for learning the aspects and characteristics of a dog you plan to breed. If ears concern you that much, look for a dog that is older--to a point that if the ears are ever going to stand up, they are doing so. Of course you don't get a young puppy, but how are you supposed to be able to tell what the dog will physically look like when it gets older? Would you blame the breeder if the dog didn't have the coat coloring you wanted as an adult? I would hope not. To me, it is along the same line.
Of course i wouldn't blame the breeder about the coat. That is just the gene pool and the luck of the draw. i was only repeating the stuff about the ears being genetic because of what has been posted here. Did you read my entire pst? I knew nothing except what i had read on here and I knew I wanted a yorkie with erect ears. I saw parents, grandparents, siblings when I went to purchase Ceeby. The breeder was selling two litters at the same. When I first went to pick him out and pay my deposit, every single one of those pups had erect ears except Ceeby had one that about halfway flopped. I asked if his ear would come up and she said," yes it will and if it doesn't I will give you your deposit back because I know you want erect ears." I was purchasing a dog with erect ears. When I went back on the day he came home, both ears were up and so far have stayed up. I don't think he is teething yet and I do expect them to go down during that time but I also know that this time, it is MY reasponsibility to work with them to get them to go back up. Who knows? I may be one of the lucky ones and his ears may stay up.

BamaFan121s 12-14-2005 11:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugar's Mom
Did you read my entire pst?
Of course I read your entire post...otherwise I wouldn't have replied... :confused: I wasn't trying to start an argument...just explaining why I do not think ears--or coat, color, etc--should be covered under the health guarantee. :)

txshopper73 12-14-2005 11:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BamaFan121s
My feeling is they shouldn't be covered because they do not threaten the dog's health and well-being...only it's look. That would be like giving a guarantee on the type of coat the dog will have as an adult. You say because it's genetic? Every aspect of a dog is genetic. Every physical characteristic that a dog developes is due to genetics. There should never be a reason to blame the breeder (if he/she is a GOOD breeder) because as the potential owner, you should take responsibility for learning the aspects and characteristics of a dog you plan to breed. If ears concern you that much, look for a dog that is older--to a point that if the ears are ever going to stand up, they are doing so. Of course you don't get a young puppy, but how are you supposed to be able to tell what the dog will physically look like when it gets older? Would you blame the breeder if the dog didn't have the coat coloring you wanted as an adult? I would hope not. To me, it is along the same line.
Good points. What I'm not understanding, however, is how the ear not standing is genetic. NOW, LET ME SAY FIRST...that I can understand an ear not standing because the leather is large and fat thus too heavy to stand. You should be able to tell on a pup if it's ears are flat against it's head, no, they PROBABLY will not ever stand. Now, that, I can see is genetics but you'd be able to see that when purchasing a pup.

HOWEVER, unless you were buying a pup for showing (which you'd do when they were much older), or for breeding (and it is stated in the contract) then ears should be covered.

It is not life threatening nor will is lesson the quality of life. That's the same as saying a low tail set should be covered. That is totally unheard of. Unless it is specifically a show dog or breeding and is stated in the sales contract, it should not be covered.

YorkyKids 12-14-2005 12:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by txshopper73
Good points. What I'm not understanding, however, is how the ear not standing is genetic. NOW, LET ME SAY FIRST...that I can understand an ear not standing because the leather is large and fat thus too heavy to stand.
I would like to say. I suspect standing ears, low tail sets, coat color/type will become a ever looming larger problem in the future. From the sampling of posts I'm seeing here many buyers are getting educated on what they expect their Yorkie to "look" like when it matures. From the sample posts here and on other threads I am seeing buyers who are EXPECTING a well bred YORKSHIRE TERRIER. One which looks like the breed standard when mature. I am so happy to see such requirements/expectations being asked by the pet searchers. This can only be GOOD for the breed as a whole. Regardless of the recent threads opposing "breed standards", a breed standard is still our blue print for what the dog should look and Act like. I think some of these questions prove that point! HooRay for all of you who are taking the time to research and become educated before you acquire a Yorkie.

But for the purpose of this discussion it's is the health issues we are discussing. The other "faults" have no bearing on the health of the dog. But I for one am happy to see these questions being asked.

BamaFan121s 12-14-2005 12:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by txshopper73
HOWEVER, unless you were buying a pup for showing (which you'd do when they were much older), or for breeding (and it is stated in the contract) then ears should be covered.

It is not life threatening nor will is lesson the quality of life. That's the same as saying a low tail set should be covered. That is totally unheard of. Unless it is specifically a show dog or breeding and is stated in the sales contract, it should not be covered.
Should or shouldn't...pls re-read and verify.

BamaFan121s 12-14-2005 12:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by YorkyKids
But for the purpose of this discussion it's is the health issues we are discussing. The other "faults" have no bearing on the health of the dog. But I for one am happy to see these questions being asked.
Thanks :thumbup:

sylvan 12-14-2005 12:32 PM
just adding in my two cents...

My guarantee is 10 days full refund no questions asked, barring injury from abuse or neglect. Sometimes, things just aren't as expected or other pets don't adjust or whatever, and I would much prefer the pup come back to me asap.
One year covered on any health related genetic problems, with $ to pay related vet bills up to the purchase price of the pup. I just don't understand how anyone would want a 'replacement' puppy offered by most breeders, though it is an option up to the buyer on my contract. I do not cover LP, because that can be environmental, but would be willing to cover that if vets felt it was not injury related.
Lifetime return is required if the purchaser ever chooses to relinquish the pup.
It is my understanding that down-ears are a genetic fault.
I have only sold one pup with breeding rights to someone I am mentoring.
If I ever had a boy with undescended testicles, I would certainly compensate for the difference in neuter fees.
okay, maybe it was 20 cents worth...

YorkieRini 12-14-2005 12:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sylvan
just adding in my two cents...

My guarantee is 10 days full refund no questions asked, barring injury from abuse or neglect. Sometimes, things just aren't as expected or other pets don't adjust or whatever, and I would much prefer the pup come back to me asap.
One year covered on any health related genetic problems, with $ to pay related vet bills up to the purchase price of the pup. I just don't understand how anyone would want a 'replacement' puppy offered by most breeders, though it is an option up to the buyer on my contract. I do not cover LP, because that can be environmental, but would be willing to cover that if vets felt it was not injury related.
Lifetime return is required if the purchaser ever chooses to relinquish the pup.
It is my understanding that down-ears are a genetic fault.
I have only sold one pup with breeding rights to someone I am mentoring.
If I ever had a boy with undescended testicles, I would certainly compensate for the difference in neuter fees.
okay, maybe it was 20 cents worth...
Haha Stacy, don't worry about you 20 cents..I've already given about a buck fifty.. :D

Health is most important but I have to say that down ears can also be unrealted to genetics. For example, I have been battling with one of my Biewers girl's ears to stand. I know that down ears is not in these genes. I have 5 litter mates from 2 different litters. I also have seen the other siblings and the parents. All have erect ears. Lovetta is the female who's ear has been a struggle. I have been gluing her ear up all this time and she just turned 10 months. Guess what.. that darn ear is FINALLY up!!! It's been staying up for the past 2 wks but I still glue it for reinforcement. This is quite mystery, her ears are perfect not too big, not heavy leather and I've kept the hair off. Must have been because she's teething. There was a time I was going ot just let it go but I couldnt stand to look at it..lolol.. It wasn't floppy, it appeared flimsey flipping up and down but not staying up all the time.

I have seen this happen with pups that have left my home with perky ears and then flop later on. I educate the new owners on how to glue them up. Some prefer them flippy others do the glue and it works. So I tend to disagree that flipply/floppy ears are always genetic.

I think it's great that pet owners are doing their homework and are being selective in what they want. So refreshing!!!

txshopper73 12-14-2005 01:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by YorkyKids
Regardless of the recent threads opposing "breed standards", a breed standard is still our blue print for what the dog should look and Act like.
EXCELLENT!!!!!!! :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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