Do I really have a Yorkie??
 

I purchased 2 yorkie puppies (supposedly) on April 16, 2004, the date of birth was 3/2/04 and they were from the same litter so we thought. One puppy (Monty) was for my mom and the other one Toby was mine. We paid an extra 100.00 for moms puppy because he was supposed to be "small" and she said the smaller ones are more, both are males. Mom took her puppy back to Ohio and we kept right along loving Toby however, he seemed to be growing pretty big. Once mom came back to Atlanta for Memorial Day with Monty, we really got a chance to see the size and color differences. Today we took them both to the vet at the same time. Toby weighs 7lb.15oz and Monty is 5lb. 10oz. Once I started asking questions, the vet confirmed that they probably were not from the same litter, but maybe 1 parent the same. Typically there is not that big of size diff in the puppies. Also, based on their teeth pattern they appear to be 14-15weeks compared to the 19-20 weeks we thought they were and thus couldn't get some of the later shots typically rec'd at that age. She also agreed that Toby was probably a "Silky" terrier or maybe mixed..but did not appear to be a pure breed Yorkie as I had paid for. She est. that Toby will be over 14lbs at full grown age and Monty will be 9lbs maybe a little over--certainly not the "tiny" we paid for. I called the breeder and of course she said there could be no doubt to the breed of the dogs and seemed to be upset. She wants me to fax on Monday the letter that the Dr. wrote regarding the above and she claims she will set up an appt. to have her dogs and ours looked at by our vet and hers..She did once refer to the sire as a "silky" when I said--that's the problem, I didn't pay for a "silky" nor do these AKC papers you gave us reflect a "silky" she said--"when I said silky I was refering to the coat..I don't know what a silky terrier looks like."
Any suggestions from anyone who knows about the breeds and can offer some advise on next steps and thoughts on yorkie or not. Based on the pics I have seen, Toby looks like a silky terrier maybe he is mixed but definitely not a full breed yorkie unless my eyes decieve me..Of course we love him--but I wan't my yorkie!! (Please forgive any spelling errors..I'm really upset by all of this..)

You may have a mixed breed. I know of breeders who breed both Yorkies and Silkies, though not to each other. However, accidents happen. My Doodle Dog Pogo is the result of an accidental breeding from a reputable Dachshund breeder. She was, of course, not selling the pups as purebred and not for much money.

However, you may have a Yorkie. The Breed Standard sets the ideal Yorkie weight (show dog weight) at 4 to 7 pounds. There are often Yorkies who weigh less than 4 and even more Yorkies who weigh more than 7. My Higgins will weigh around 8 pounds our vet thinks. His mother weighed about 10 pounds and his father around 5-6 pounds. They can vary greatly in size, even within the same litter. The pups were represented to us fairly. We did not get papers with Higgins and didn't care. We paid only $450, and were happy with his health and his parents and the breeder. We looked at several breeders and litters of Yorkie pups before buying Higgins, as well as many pictures on the internet of Yorkie pups. We never intended to show our Yorkie or breed him.

If your breeder is reputable, she should be willing to take your puppy back. Reputable breeders will do that happily. If the vets agree that the pup is not purebred, there definitely should be return of some of the money you paid for him, if you keep him.

And you might want to keep him. I happen to prefer outcrosses, dogs that are the result of breeding two purebred dogs of different breeds, like my Pogo.
And a Silky/Yorkie would be an ideal outcross. Outcrosses are healthier and usually have the BEST qualities of both breeds.

There is one other possibility and that is the pups may have the same mother but different fathers. If the bitch was accidentally bred by more than one male, this can happen!

Read your breeder's contract carefully. If vets confirm that the dogs are not purbred or of the same litter, you may want to report this to AKC or wherever they are registered. Especially if the breeder will not do anything to make the sale more equitable or take the pup back.

But do consider keeping Toby, too! You have invested love in him and he will return it tenfold for many years.

I hope you are able to resolve the issue to your satisfaction.

Thank you for the information. I will definitely keep Toby! However, it is just upsetting that I paid $700.00 for Toby and $800.00 for Monty and mom and I still don't have what we paid for!!! Monty appears to be a Yorkie but certainly not the small size she made us pay for. She wasn't selling him as a "tea cup" which we know there is no such thing, however, she said because he would be smaller around 4lbs at maturity. He is 4lbs now and he is only 3-4mths the vet thinks..The breeder says based on his birthdate they both should be 5mths. If you see them both side by side it would be a miracle to me that both of them came from the same mother and father at the same time, which is what the AKC registration papers say. I looked into DNA testing which is approx 30-50.00 but it will not identify the breed. I just want to have an alternative if her vet says they are both Yorkies, same litter, etc. I can't see how that could possibly be?? Do they have Yorkies that are all blond.(gold in color at maturity)??
Thanks again for your support and I'll keep you posted!

Yes, they most certainly DO have Yorkies that are gold at maturity! The silver blue is the most desired color in a show dog, but Yorkies can come in many different combinations of color. Higgins is nice and silver blue now, but will get lighter and lighter I think. His father was very light silver and his mother was mostly gold with some silver on her back. If you look in the photo gallery here, you'll see quite a variety of color and coat.

While $700 and $800 is a LOT of money, it is on the lower end for Yorkies. Our little breed has gotten VERY expensive!!! If you look around the internet, the going prices are over $1000 and often $2-3000 for pups. The "teacup" Yorkie camping near us this winter was from Canada and they paid $3,500 for her. She is now four years old and weighs 5 lbs.

I would definitely pursue finding out what you DO have, as far as you are able to do so. But in the final analysis, Yorkies can be very different, even in the same litter. However, if it can be proved that your pups are NOT as represented, then the breeder should be taken to task with AKC and possibly the courts.

Keep us posted, and in the meantime, give Toby and Monty a hug from us!

Welcome to the board! If they grow up to be 12 to 14 pounds at full grown size, they most likely aren't Yorkies, but Silkies. I'm sorry to hear about your unfortunate experience with the breeder, as there are a lot of breeders out there that may stretch the truth a bit... It does sound like they may be mixed Silkie/Yorkie.

Welcome to the board, LBK408! So sorry for what you are going through with your baby! The pups sounds like the breeder let them go before they were old enough and it's my understanding that they can't really be evaluated until they are around 12-16 weeks old. We searched for a long time before we found our Toto and since the breeder only breeds dogs to show, she was 16 weeks before we could see her and bring her home and even then the breeder wanted to keep her for three more months!! :eek: We still stay in touch and she is always interested in Toto's life. Even though the breeder and our vet said she would never weigh 3 lbs., she is now a year old and 4 lbs.!! :p but .... just like I told her last week, I don't care if she gets the size of a St. Bernard, we love her more than anything and she is such a part of our life ... we wouldn't part for her for ten times what we paid! Your breeder should make some restitution but bottom line ... once you have that bond with your baby ... returning them is not an option!! Please keep us posted. ;)

Lacey & Lindseys Mom ... there should be some sort of punishment for people such as you saw on Judge Judy! That seems like a crime ... they prey on people's emotions! When my husband and I first got excited about buying a Yorkie we saw an internet ad and just fell in love with a tiny Yorkie. Patrick called the breeder in Dallas and these puppies were ACA also [I think that organization is a copy-cat of AKC?]. We were fully prepared to pay the 2700 for the baby and the breeder assured us she would be shipped to us in the CABIN of the airline! [We were in Missouri at that time and didn't have time to drive to Dallas to pick her up]. We were so excited and my detail-orientated hubby called the airport in St. Louis to make sure which gate, etc. we would pick this baby up from ... they didn't have a clue what he was talking about! Thank God we caught this man in a lie before we subjected that poor baby to the baggage hold of an airplane!! Patrick was furious, called the man and was very "unpleasant" with him and we got a firm grip on our emotions, studied every piece of information and book we could find on Yorkies and finally [several months later] found our baby Toto in Marietta, GA with a wonderful breeder who breeds show dogs. We are so thankful for this experience and that we waited to find this perfect baby who has become so much a part of us! She is just too wonderful for words! We were fortunate in that we didn't have to be concerned with the cost but once I held that little tiny piece of fluff ... I would've paid anything she asked!! ;)

I don't think it's right to buy and resell Yorkies in my opinion. I hope people do their research before buying on the Internet! I hope people do their research before buying a Yorkie in Worcester County, Massachusetts!

People should try and visit the breeder in person before getting their Yorkie! That or have some quality recommendations!

addition
 

I agree, people really need to research and get references before buying a yorkie because they are a long commitment and we want our babies to be healthy. I wouldn't buy one unless I could see where they came from and the parents with them, a health certificate, a reputable breeder and AKC, American Kennel Club registered, along with the proper shots. Then find a vet that knows a lot about caring for yorkies. There is more work involved here then having a 'real human baby'..... :)

I just don't understand why anyone wouldn't research! We found our breeder through a VET! Dr. Lucy has a small practice 45 minutes from our home and we met her and "interviewed" before we ever met the breeder and we will always believe that had she not recommended us, we would never have been allowed to buy Toto! The breeder lives in Georgia and it's 115 miles from the vet and yet she drives over 300 miles for Dr. Lucy to care for her show babies!! Yorkies are Dr. Lucy's specialty and she too raises Yorkie show dogs! We are so blessed to have found her. She is so patient with us ... we made three trips to her office the first week we had Toto!! :p We were just nervous wrecks and panicked if we thought a single hair looked wrong!! :eek: We take her at least once a month for her to just "look over" and make sure everything is going well. Also, we have her on "speed dial" at her office and her home and she always assures us that if we ever have to board Toto to bring her and she will keep Toto at her home!! [How many vets would do that?] :)
One thing that puzzles me about this "Denise" ... we had to sign an agreement with our breeder that if for any reason we couldn't keep Toto, she goes back to the breeder. This makes me think that the Yorkies that Denise is selling either aren't really registered Yorkies or that she is possibly violating any agreement that she may have signed in order to buy them herself? There just should be something that could be done to stop people like her!! :mad:

This is all very good information for anyone that comes to this site and wants to know about YORKIES, thats for sure ! The more we post the better.

Bettyeanne,
Where in Marietta GA did you buy your baby. I live in Atlanta and I would love to get a "Real" yorkie as an addition to our family. She may be willing to assist in finding out IF Toby is really a Yorkie. Is her name Lori (breeder in Marietta)?? The breeder is still trying to say that both of her dogs are yorkies..The parents--and I want to go through the AKC since she gave me papers but I have to wait until they are 6 mths. DNA test is only 30.00 but doesn't attest to the breed. I really wish I knew how to prove NOW that Toby isn't a pure breed. It is not about giving him up but I didn't get what I paid for and longed to have. I could have gone anywhere and paid $100.00 for a dog I don't know what it is..Of course I haven't heard back from the breeder.
Thank you all for your support and I'll try to email pics soon. I have to figure out how to do it..

By all means, follow up with AKC. Be aware that MANY people FORGE AKC papers! Or obtain them through illegal procedures. And ALWAYS report to the AKC if you find that your papers are not correct! They will discipline bad breeders.

Other kennel clubs such as the ACA and CKC are new and will "register" just about anything, especially popular outcrosses, which are NOT purebred dogs, just the result of crossing two purebreds of different breeds, or a fancy mutt!
Now I happen to LOVE outcrosses and I own one - Pogo - BUT he certainly isn't registered anywhere and I only paid $100 for him!

"Tiny" or "Super Large" are creating problems in the dog world these days. Any extreme seems to be desireable! We're talking big money here and that often attracts dishonesty.

A tip: If you want to meet desirable breeders with good quality dogs, most often at fair prices, go to an AKC sanctioned dog show and MEET them! They LOVE to talk about their dogs and you will learn a lot! Some may have puppies with them or can tell you which reputable breeders have puppies available.

I know. Ya want one NOW. Just like I did. But I KNEW what I wanted and what I could afford to pay and what to look for to get the best Yorkie for that lower price. It took about a month of searching, but we finally found Higgins. Actually, we went to look at his sister puppy, but she wasn't interested in us and HE was! So HE adopted us!

Toto's Mom--Please Please do share the info regarding Dr. Lucy (vet) and the breeder here in Georgia. They may be very close to where I live and can assist me in 1) checking Toby out and ensuring that everything is what it is supposed to be and 2) I can see if the breeder would have a "purebreed" yorkie that I can purchase or lead me into the right direction.
lbk408@bellsouth.net

Now..I just got of the phone with the breeder's husband...UGHHHHHH!!! Of course they plan on doing NOTHING..Claims my vet told them she apolized for the letter!!! I talked to me vet yesterday and she said NOTHING of the sort!!! Also, they claim the the great great or great grandfather of the stud was a show dog and weighed 14lbs!! I said show dogs Yorkies have to be under 7lbs..This was in Canada and apparently Canada show dogs have diff rules????huhhh? Anyway, they claim that they were selling pets not show dogs and anything under 14lbs is good. 8lbs would be an average normal size and the you have your larger ones.
I crying I am soo angry that they would be allowed to do this..I have to wait a few more months to even begin an investigation with the AKC, but I am going to do it!!

Yes, the standard Yorkie is UNDER 7 pounds. They are lying to you, LBK408. Sorry to tell you that. Perhaps you can go to small claims court regarding this issue?

Weight:
Must not exceed seven pounds (3.18 kg).

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/sho...orkie+standard

Look online at Tyava.com .... her name is Ava Tyree and she is a wonderful person but very picky about all her babies. Tyava's Wyatt Earp is my Toto's Dad! Ava is in Biloxi, Mississippi showing some of her babies this week-end. Toto is purebred and Ava is fierce about keeping her dogs bloodline pure as this helps to reduce health problems. I believe she will be happy to help you if she can. It's hard to reach her until in the afternoon because she is busy with her babies mornings. Hope this helps.

This is a link to the AKC Breed Standard for Yorkshire Terriers. Note the very last sentence regarding weight.

http://www.akc.org/breeds/recbreeds/york.cfm

It infuriates me that these people are such crass liars!!!! By all means, keep good notes of your conversations with them, dates, etc., and take them to court and to the AKC! I would LOVE to see their names published here and on other Yorkie sites, BUT I am not aware of libel laws and these are the kind of people that would probably try to sue you.

AAAAAAAaaaaarrrrrrrrrghhhhhh!!!!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

You go girl!!! :p Wouldn't do for that "so-called" breeder to have a band of Yorkie lovers on her "case"!! :eek: Seriously, I believe they count on the fact that you wouldn't be pet shopping unless you were a dog lover and once you see those sweet babies and one of them "chooses" you that you won't care what the consequences are ... you devote yourself to the pet and that's the end of it!! Most of them are very agreeable that you "return them to the breeder" if it doesn't work out! You get attached and would sooner part with one of your kids! :( Face it .... they got you by the "ying yang"!! :mad:

Just saw on "Animal Planet" a Q&A regarding a man who sued one of these lying breeders .... was awarded the money he paid for the dog! :) That's good ... bad thing is ... who could give the puppy up?? :confused: I think the fair thing would be ... award the purchase price AND get to keep the puppy!! A few times and it might discourage the dishonest breeders out there!! ;)

I sure do agree with ya on that one, Bettye! Why should they get the puppy back? They will just sell it to some other unsuspecting person......AND I think that it should be REPORTED in the newspaper. I think court reports are public record. Newspapers and TV news stations could perform a real service if they reported WHO was committing these frauds. When you buy a puppy, it's a really private thing......We need to find a way to shed some honest light on the breeders. Good breeders won't mind.....they'll encourage it.

Yup, things like that are NEVER in the press. Usually the only time I see resolution to something like this is on local news, when somebody complains to the station, and they try to do an "investigative report" or try to "right the wrong" on it. So perhaps that is one way to get word out if perhaps you have been wronged like that.

What a GREAT idea!! Local TV stations DO often have people who resolve problems........

One of the stations in Birmingham has a reporter who does that!! It's so neat ... so many of the people that's been helped have said ... "I didn't know what to do, so I called Calvin!" :) From what I have seen ... you don't want Calvin after you!!! He always "gets his man"!! :p My Patrick used to work in television news and nothing encourages honesty like that big camera in your face!!! :eek:

First of all, that's not true that if they're bigger they're silkies...I spoke to a vet in California, whom I also sent a picture of my yorkie too(she's 11 lbs)
she said she's definitely a yorkie...just because they're more than 7 lbs. does NOT mean, they're silkie...they used to breed yorkies bigger up to I believe close to 20 lbs. and have downsized them, but they can go back generation...If you have a picture of your baby, e-mail it to me at stratman397@aol.com would love to see a picture...but, don't believe just because it's bigger it's silkie and not yorkie...It is possible they're from the
same litter and that another male got in with the female and bred with her and yours and your moms dog both have the same mother and different
father...I've seen that happen before...

That is for showing ONLY!! You don't show a 12 lb yorkie, and that's just what they shouldn't exceed...but, like people, some of them eat more and weigh more....Please don't make people think they don't have yorkies just because they're bigger...Like I said, I have had mine checked now by 2 vets(one saw mine and the other saw close up pictures), they both said she's definitely pure bred yorkie, but she's bigger...

size
 

I have bred for more then 30 yrs. Unforunately some do grow too larger thent he standard..and they are 100% purebred. BUT if I got oversized Yorkies I would think it time to rethink my breeding program.

It is also very possible to have big amd small in the same litter. My Charlotte has a male and female who are now 4 months old. The male will be every bit of 7 pounds and the female will be a wee 3 pounder. I see it often in the same litter..some pups look nothing like each other.

Toby
 

Keep on this only for PRINCIPAL!! I went thru an experiance with 2 seperate breeders -

BTW _ My Chanel is 9.7 lbs.- ALL YORKIE! I wouldn't trade her for the world! She is my tiny yorkie baby and always will be! The Breeder also stated she would be NO MORE than 6 lbs. Right!

Keep on this - If you go to the AKC they will direct you as I posted on this forum about certain Breeders and their Ethics (NOT ALL BREEDERS - just 2 in Particular!!!) Anyway - they made me so angry - I have 2 letters I am emailing all over and I am not quitting either!!!

So - keep at it cause there is always someone out there who might help or do something about the Mis-representation of Selling Puppies!

If we went to the store - ordered something but got something else - there is recourse - why not with our money when we purchase a dog?

Good luck!

Update from Toby's Mom!
 

Hello all!! and thanks sooo much for the concern, support and info..Now since we last spoke--mom and I went to the breeders house--they had 2 females and 1 male..1 female and the male was shaved so close we couldn't tell anything..and the other one looked like a Yorkie..Toby does look like the dad and at times, now we see where maybe he looks like the supposedly mom. but my Mom heard the dad saying to his 2 teenage kids who were there that they look alike except they just have diff moms..Nooooo....but they gave us the papers on Rocky the dad..and that breeders number as well as the registration,. Now, I called the breeder by coincidence earlier that day before going over because they had an add in the paper and I do want a female. The breeder was VERY informative and has been breeding champions for over 10 yrs..I didn't even know it was one in the same until they gave me the number. Anyway, what she said was--1st Vet's are in the business of health..and unless they have bred Yorkies or any particular breed, they can't beging to know all the information, etc. on that breed. They can't tell by looking at them, there age, IF they are purebred or really a Yorkie, etc. Teeth pattern tells nothing! Some gain and loss teeth earlier or later than expected just like children. As well, unless you know the pedigree history behind the dog, you won't really know the size, or anything of that nature...Anyone who has a kennel name, like Yorkmont Rocky--I'm a dandy too...for example should have the family pedigree information. If it is like Dam Princess Leah IV for example, this is just a pet name, and unless you can find out IF they have a kennel name somewhere in their background, you really won't know anything. The mother makes up 60% of the gene pool so really, your taking a 50/50% by breeding if you don't know anything about the history to determine, size, etc. which they don't recommend. So, if the mothers genes and pedigree history down the line has large Yorkies--maybe the litter will reach back into that gene pool and thus produce a large one even though the dad may be smaller and have a small sizes in his genes. One could be large and the other small, so they really can't tell you anything about the size or shouldn't be selling a certain size because they don't know!..So it doen's mean that they are not both Yorkies..However, THEY should have told me that, and I would not have been expecting a less than 7lb dog. She asked me and mom to take their measurements from the back of the neck to the tail bone and then from the back of the neck down to the floor. Based on that, she said that she would guess that Toby still had some baby fat on him but that he was pretty much probably through growing and should be less than 10 lbs and that Monty still would be growing a little bit more and get to be about 5-6 but certainly not over 9lbs. Then she gave me --wagon wheel pedigree and said that I could go to the website get information and research the pedigrees on the mother and see what or IF we can determine anything before I think about breeding or having puppies. She said that based on her dogs, she knows which ones to mate to have smaller or larger , etc. and she was certainly not trying to sell me anything!..She asked a lot of questions about the temperment that I was looking for in an animal, show quality or not, etc. She said that the DNA would tell only if who they said was the mother and father were truly the mother and father...other than that it would tell nothing...BUT I question this too...so I may fork over the 35.00 and at least get that part done. The original owners seemed to be open to that..but we'll see once I call them to schedule. This other breeder also referred me to a vet in my area that she knows that they know about Yorkies, specifically, she has worked with them and seen them at shows, etc...Sooo...here we have my "Big Kahona"--which is now Toby's nickname--whom I adore..I do want a smaller female yorkie, even if I don't breed them which I won't now until I am a little more informed on Toby's history..It just makes you made when people are selling things that are not representative of what they say--but I take ownership in this too...because I should have done more research. I searched on the breed, temperment, etc. but never learned as much as I did that Sunday!..She also recommended a couple of good books as well!-- The Complete Yorkie, the New Complete Yorkie and the Book of Yorkie-- well you know Yorkshire is spelled out but I would love to pass on any author info IF anyone is interested!...Thanks again and let me know what you all think..
Toby's Mom

questions??
 

I agree with much of what the breeder said. I disagree with her not knowing these boys would be larger. I cannot know the exact weight of each pup at adulthood, but I know a potential 3 pounder from a 7 pounder.
You bought them as pets only, correct? Then they sound like great pets, but I agree you should have gotten what you paid for..small Yorkies.
Many pups look nothing like either parent or other litter mates..same as with humans.
AS to DNA costing $35..that is to regsiter YOUR males DNA with AKC for breeding. If you meant you want to DNA your male to see who the parents are, that will start at $500 with AKC.
Best wishes