I don't know a Yorkie yet that's been able to fill in that smiley face, "pain scale" chart.

Same logic was applied to circumcision. It was refuted. When a breeder is doing the deed, does he/she test the area for development of neuronal infiltration? The brain is a remarkable instrument. That's all I say.

Not only that, my son has cancer. I could tell you volumes about pain that's undocumented in studies. It's real. So I say, when in doubt, leave it ON!

OH MY HEAVENS ! ! !

Nancy,
SURELY you didn't fall for that ! I WAS KIDDING, just trying to get a rise out of those who are SO totally against Docking.

I APOLOGIZE SINCERELY, if I caused anyone any discomfort.

Oh yes, I fell, I thought maybe this was something the dog fighting breeders were doing. I wouldn't put much past them.

Have you seen a 3 day old infant puppy having its tail docked? They yelp out sometimes just like they do when you pick one up, press moderately on a foot with your thumb or their mother leaves the nest. My vet says the heart rate or respiration rate hardly rises after the dock, resumes normal within a couple of minutes and certainly is not as high as when a pup is removed from the teat and says that the neurological system in the peripherals at that age is just not developed enough to sustain a pain message to the brain. Tiny puppies with significant pain have increased heart & respiration rates and cry over and over. Puppies who have just had tail docks do not keep crying or any other displays of sustained distress.

What we do to a dog bathing it, clipping its toenails, dressing them in all kinds of clothing, bows, jewelry when they don't like it or leaving them alone as we leave a young pup in its crate are far harder for the dog to deal with - in that their heart rates and respirations rise and stay up for significant periods during these activities. Infant puppies after tail/dew docking do not exhibit anywhere near the amount of stress as Tibbe did the first time I tried to clip his toenails when I first got him. And then he ran off and hid, sustaining his stress.

I totally get that you're 'taking the piss' here...however in pits specifically ears are only cropped to aid in fighting reducing ear injuries-there is little nedical research showing a need for ear cropping.

Tail docking of pits is done as with any docked breed to prevent injury of any cause...however your joke about how its done isn't far off from the sad reality manu times in manu breeds ears are cropped with household scissors, tails are docked by means of any sharp object that can get it done, sometines tyes are used si the tail just dies and falls off. Dew claws are often just yanked out with pliers from a tool kit.

This is exactly why I feel ONLY a licensed vet should perform dew claw removal ear cropping abd tail docking.

I'm doing some partial quotes here bc I want to quote a few different posts of yours. Anyway, really appreciate what you're saying in that 1st para above.

Btw, I don't kill bugs either - me and hubby catch and release bugs :p. The one exception we sometimes have to make is scorpions bc my husband actually is allergic to the venom (on ER trip was enough). If we can't catch them in the house, we have to help them onto their next life, unforch.

Really like the whole post.

Yup. It has always bothered me greatly that these procedures of altering the body are performed on these brand new little lives. Takes my breath away when I think of it.

Again I apologize if that offended anyone, but, on a more serious note...

Actually, in the case of the Yorkshire and all Terrier Breeds, the Tail is Docked for a very good reason. Terriers are Varminteers, and if let do what they were intended to, will follow the Varmint into Burrows. Frequently, the Dogs would be so vigorous about it, that they would need assistance in getting out of the hole.

Thusly, abbreviating their Tails enhanced their ability to back up, AND OR, if necessary, a short stocky stump was very handy for the Hunter to take hold of, and pull the Dog back out of the hole.

Original lengths for most Terrier Breeds were in the 3-4" lengths.
A convenient handful. :thumbup:

I too think we should support breed clubs...but I can't support them blindly; I honestly feel the breed clubs should be LEADING the way toward not docking. Instead, it sometimes feels like breed clubs are closed doors in terms of even looking at the issue with an open mind...that really, really bothers me; in fact, it chips away at my trust in breed clubs in general :( (to be very honest). So, where does that leave people like me who are truly interested in this issue? Pretty much on their own, or with others who are feeling similarly and want to openly discuss it - without being chastised by *some* breeders who *don't* want us discussing it (please note - I said *some* - stress SOME :) - and only SOME! Not all!).

No one wants to make it harder for reputable breeders to breed; I'm not sure how discussing this would make it harder for them breed. They can't expect us to not discuss things only bc there is a chance it may make things difficult for them. I'm not sure that's exactly what you meant though, but that's kinda how I read it.

I respect your feelings about using the word amputation, and I'm sure others feel that way too. To me though, there is no such thing as "docking" a body part. When you cut off part of a body part or shorten a body part, you're amputating it. Docking does make it sound better though. I just feel more comfortable when we call it what it really is...maybe that's the nurse in me; I couldn't tell a patient we were "docking" their leg and feel okay about describing it that way...that wouldn't sit right with me. Maybe that's odd that I feel this way, but that's me.

It's a sensitive issue all around, but I'm glad we're discussing it bc I think it's important to people on all sides. Lots of good food for thought. I hope I didn't say anything offensive here, Nanc - you know I always appreciate your opinion even when we come at it from different angles :).

(Btw, I don't see it as just 'docking the skinny tip'...it's more than 3/4 of the tail, at least. When I compare Wylie and Marcel's tail w/ Pfeiffer's full tail, it's wayyy more than a skinny tip that is cut off, imho)

Thanks for posting this Ann. I always love reading your :thumbup:

Khloe has a full tail and we have not had any issues with it. She has so much expression and life in her tail and it kills me that people would justify amputating it because she *might* hurt herself someday :( To me, cutting off a body part to prevent issues that may never happen is horrible.

I am going to say again, if you want and feel strongly about certain parts of a standard then join your local/regional breed club, and be part of making a difference into the standard.
All active members get to vote on standard changes!


For me, like any other caring person, do truly want to know if this is a painfull procedure. My experience says not. I also want to know if there is a long term debilitating effect. And there is one article on here, that says it is not, nor is there a long term effect!

I also want to know what are the increased % of dogs that need surgery on tails due to injury later in life. And I fully believe that, THAT stress is HUGE and the risks of surgery on an adult dog is a whole lot more than tail docking at three days old!

Tail docking IMHO pales in comparison to those breeders whether they be commercial (which is about all commercial breeders), who do not test for many health conditions before breeding!

That is a huge travesty, and you like I, see it every day on the board. How many posts do we have here on Sick and Emergency or Yorkie Health, that says my dog's tail was docked and he/she is experiencing partial paralysis, or some such problem?

Compare this to how many posts we have about truly life debilitating conditions such as Liver Shunt, and Luxating Patella?

I think that as a dog fancier that is passionate about the breed you love, that one should be supporting those breeders who test for these things, and supporting research to identfiy the genetic markers for these conditions in the Yorkshire Terrier Breed.

Anne talking "about" it doesn't make it harder for breeders to breed, but a standard change is a serious business, and one that once changed will require all breeders who respect the standard to breed to that standard. And yes that does make a big difference! It might not be important to you as a non-breeder, but it is important to me as one!

The Standard, a good standard is a blueprint, the goal set in writing of what any breed should be. It is the goal that all good breeders strive towards.

So there is in my mind a whole lot more serious issues with the YT that I would like to see addressed in the Standard, that has nothing to do with the length of the tail. These issues are of known hereditary origin, and DO over the life of the dog effect in a very painful way their life, not to mention the cost the extreme emotional cost to the owner of a sick dog, and of course the financial burden!

Until and unto such time, there is clear and unequivocal evidence that tail docking is injurious to the long term health of my dogs, I will continue to support breeders choice in docking or not!

In science, there’s something called the status quo bias, in other words, it’s better to keep things as they are then change something is until we are sure it’s superior. Most scientific testing is based upon this, and I fully support it. I do agree though, we should never support anything blindly, but before we make decisions we should understand both sides of the argument. I think we forget that there is nothing “natural” about dog breeds, the Yorkie would never developed in the “real world”. Breeders have picked and chosen which traits should be in the Yorkshire terrier and eliminated other traits, they’ve never had to think much about breeding for tail, except “where” it sat, they didn’t have to take thickness or length into consideration. If we outlaw docking, breeders would start breeding for a thicker tail, but even that simple suggestion would have repercussions, we would be limiting the gene pool again, and this could disastrous have effects. I totally agree with you, breed clubs should be heading this effort, not pet owners, but only because breeders understand the full extent of the problem. Some commercial breeders are interested in banning docking but it’s probably because it will save them money, I doubt if they care about the best interests of the dog. As I said before, I really don’t know the answer to this question, I think it’s much more complicated than some seem to think.

Regarding the skinny tip I think you're right, some do take much more than that. Ann, I hope you know I appreciate your opinion too. :) If I made the rules, they would just dock the skinny tip!

How does anyone know whether there is NO stress-related trauma from the docking process itself? These are questions that truly can not be fully answered. There will never be an absolute determination until we've progressed as a species and in the medical arts to the point of being able to delve into the mind of the terrier. That's not going to happen.

I think it's nice to want to have studies and data. From what I've noticed in this thread, every breeder here wants to see hard data. Aren't the breeders really just kicking the can down a bit in order to avoid the real question of whether docking is actually necessary? How many species have tails? How many species survive with tails intact? What makes the Yorkie more clumsy or likely to injure the tail than other dogs? What makes it more likely that the Yorkie will injure its tail as opposed to some other body part? It sticks out and up - so it can get injured. But it shouldn't be cut off merely because it exists.

From the intact Yorkies I've seen (including my own), the tail doesn't drag on the ground - it's up. Even on docked Yorkies, the tail is high on the back. It's raised when the Yorkie is excited or does it's business.

So, we should get real here. I appreciate everyone's opinion on the matter. It's easy enough to say I like docking or I don't. It's Ok to have a preference. But don't hide behind a desire for more studies before that probably will never be conducted or validated.

Vets can say anything they want about docking. All I know is that if you slice a piece of skin off an infant - he/she sometimes screams, sometimes not. If I sliced the fingertip off the vet with a scalpel, he/she'd scream too. People have suffered PTSD from less actual physical trauma.

Actually it is more complicated than that. What if there was a preponderance of folks that liked the "skinny" look of a tail? And how thick is thick? How skinny is skinny? what height should the tail be carried at?

Should the tail be curved up and over the back? Or should it be carried upright roughly over the pelvis?Shoud it be curved in this position or straight?

How much hair is Normal, or should be ideal on the tail? What color, what graduations of color?

Lots of questions Nancy, which a breed club will need to answer with NO NO information, or guidance. Tallyho, we are supposed to be the "guiders". but when rules are imposed from above, one needs to adjust; we just don't know how or even why the standard should be changed! So in Europe while I can't speak for other breeds the BRT clubs, have been in major argument and discussion about what is the "correct" long tail. Eight years later No consensus has been reached! You see once you change the standard, breeders will try to breed to it. But what IS the Correct LONG TAIL? Who the hell knows? NO-one. The BRT was NEVER bred to have a long tail, which was for very good reasons. And this is a new breed only about 60 or so years old. We never had long tails, we never wanted long tails. And in our breed long tails is a detriment to their work.

There is a very small body of research that says in performance dogs the tail a long tail is actually used as a balancer.


But I digress into my passion for BRT's. In terms of Yorkies, unless they are doing a specific function, I think long tails are probably okay. Again I feel that breeders choice is the best way to go here.

Great insight, thanks for posting all of this. And I do agree, changing the standard is a huge undertaking and huge decision -- and it *is* important to me; if it wasn't, I wouldn't be posting on it. And, breeders' opinions are definitely important to me - as long as they're willing to discuss, and not close down the discussion (which you don't do :)). I always appreciate the fact that you're a breeder who is willing to discuss the sensitive stuff...even if/when you may disagree; you never come down on people for wanting to know more or wanting to challenge the status quo.

I get that most breeders might say "but there are so many other things to focus on like LP" - I get it...I think we all do/would. But the reason tail docking is high on the food chain for me is bc of the nature of the intervention, and the fact that it may not even be necessary. I don't want any body-altering intervention performed on any creature unless it truly is absolutely necessary. I'm still not seeing that amputating a tail is THAT necessary to the well being of a dog. Especially as compared to the nature of the "prevention" procedure. And that's where a lot of views digress, I know. :)

Yup yup - breeders should be heading it, that would be so ideal :thumbup:! And perhaps they are truly looking into it; but if they are - they're not sharing enough w/ us. And if they are, they need to be willing to discuss our concerns without getting defensive; bc as soon as they get defensive about it...it breeds ('scuse the pun :p) mistrust imo. As if they're trying to hide something from us, the owners. And they're probably not trying to hide anything, but it can def come off that way. I'm sure a lot of it is that they are looking at what they view as higher priority items, and I understand that...I hope they truly keep this on their radar though.

You're right - we should always support getting both sides of the story, it's always important. I think that's what's nice about this forum, is we seem to always have so many sides to an issue. And I do empathize with how complicated the issue is in its application and ramifications, but I do think it's so important to discuss things that might be worth looking at in a more serious way.

[QUOTE=luvlee;4014330]How does anyone know whether there is NO stress-related trauma from the docking process itself? These are questions that truly can not be fully answered. There will never be an absolute determination until we've progressed as a species and in the medical arts to the point of being able to delve into the mind of the terrier. That's not going to happen.

Actually you said there was. I said according to the article posted on here, it was unlikely.

But what you are sidestepping is what is to me a logical fact that surgery to "fix" an injured tail, has to be a whole lot riskier and stressful for an adult dog.

So the question remains, what is the % of dogs that will likely need vet care from tail injuries??

the bottom line to me is, if the Yorkie breed (which btw I do not breed), has little to no pain, nor long term negative effects from docking, then let it be breeders choice.