High Quality doesn't always mean High Price!

[ralphthepoodle]

Originally Posted by kodimerlyn

Thank you for that site...a lot of really good info on there and excellent descriptors. I used to make my own food but with working full time and having my son, I just did not have the time. It's fascinating to see how low Royal Canin is on the list...as I did the comparisons on both cat and dog food...it was re-affirming to read that corn is in fact used as filler.

You are welcome (: It is an amazing site, I love it (:
I do not think there is a 100% perfect dog food out there though. Ralph is allergic to corn, so I tried a whole bunch of foods, and he hated them. The only one he likes is Fromm and it happens to be a good food (: But I will say this, I would not force Ralph to eat a food he did not like, just because the list says it is a 6 star food. I want Ralph to be happy and Fromm makes him happy. But I have met many dogs who are not allergic to corn and can eat foods with that product in it, and are really healthy and happy on there food. So i personally think it varies by dog.

Anther option you could try would be SOJO's it is pre made, like if you were to make the food on your own, they have some that have the meat already in it or you can add your meat, I have heard only good things about it (:

[ralphthepoodle]

Originally Posted by candigirl

I don't feed kibble but i don't think the lack of regulation in the pet food industry is isolated to Canada only or worse here than anywhere else, it's the industry as a whole. We have a decent selection of quality dog food available over here including Acana and Orijen which is made by a Canadian company.

I will add that corn is a filler and if i did feed kibble i would choose one without it.

Orijen is an AMAZING brand (: It is a little pricey though, but I love that brand. Orijen and Fromm are my favorite dog food brands, personally.

[Teresa Ford]

Yes talking about what our Yorkies eat can turn into some heated exchanges. We have 5 dogs that I cook for. We use a good brand of kibble. Only the two youngest dogs get the same kibble. The other three have age, weight and individual needs. All the dogs get fresh, fruit, veggies, oatmeal, brown rice, whole grain pasta, lowfat cottage cheese, plain yogurt, organic peanut butter, boiled or steamed low fat fresh meats and eggs. We make our own treats too, in our dehydrator, meat jerky, apple, sweet potato etc. My dog eat a much healthier diet than Hubby and I do. They never get coffee, donuts, pizza or fast food.

[Sweet Girls]

I started my "dog food journey" so to speak because I have a dog that has/had food sensitivities/health concerns. (Not my yorkie) but now that I home-cook, it doesn't make sense that I wouldn't provide both my dogs with the same quality of food...so they are both on home-cooked. It is what works for me balancing my need to have control of what is in their food and convenience (they have both been on raw in the past). Both my dogs are small, and it really isn't that bad to cook/prepare their food ahead of time. What it boils down to for me is the control...Home-cooking gives me the greatest control on what goes in (quality and quantity), how it is prepared, and how it is stored. So far, so good. And my dog with the health issues? Currently her vet declares her to be the healthiest she has ever been!

[kodimerlyn]

Originally Posted by ralphthepoodle

You are welcome (: It is an amazing site, I love it (:
I do not think there is a 100% perfect dog food out there though. Ralph is allergic to corn, so I tried a whole bunch of foods, and he hated them. The only one he likes is Fromm and it happens to be a good food (: But I will say this, I would not force Ralph to eat a food he did not like, just because the list says it is a 6 star food. I want Ralph to be happy and Fromm makes him happy. But I have met many dogs who are not allergic to corn and can eat foods with that product in it, and are really healthy and happy on there food. So i personally think it varies by dog.

Anther option you could try would be SOJO's it is pre made, like if you were to make the food on your own, they have some that have the meat already in it or you can add your meat, I have heard only good things about it (:

I think Willi is currently being fed Fromm so will be checking that out tonight at Rens and may put both dogs on it.

I def. have more research to do. It was interesting to read the most of my suspicions were correct.

My reference to lack of regulation in food in Canada is due to my lack of knowledge on how pet food is regulated in the U.S. Canada seems to have stricter laws for food and drugs but I think we are on par with the U.S. regarding pet food. Mind you with the IAMS debaucle a few years ago I think the laws are changing here and have changed but not sure how good they are...off to investigate them now.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by candigirl

I don't feed kibble but i don't think the lack of regulation in the pet food industry is isolated to Canada only or worse here than anywhere else, it's the industry as a whole. We have a decent selection of quality dog food available over here including Acana and Orijen which is made by a Canadian company.

I will add that corn is a filler and if i did feed kibble i would choose one without it.

Do you have any science at all to back that statement up? Here's some information about author of the site that I quoted:

Sabine Contreras, Canine Care & Nutrition Consultant

At school in Germany she attended Biology and Chemistry classes for 8 and 6 consecutive years respectively and during her 2 1/2 year professional apprenticeship, nutrition/dietetics was part of the accompanying education, and the final written and oral exams by the state of Baden-Württemberg.

After completing coursework in Animal Nutrition, Care, Physiology, Diseases and Parasitology, Sabine earned her certification in Animal Care from the University of Guelph, Ontario, Canada.Better Dog Care, Better Dog Nutrition - Creating Healthy Lifestyles for Canines: About Sabine

Here's information on the authors of Dog Food Analysis:

The ratings given and comments made about the foods assessed on this site and ingredients listed are the opinion of the Editors, who are a small team of volunteers each with a long standing interest in dog nutrition. http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/about.html

An interest in nutrition, what does that mean? Pretty much anyone here could be an editor there. They have no solid credentials, they have no formal training. Like it or not nutrition is a science, you need to understand the science behind nutrition before you can have a informed opinion. Otherwise, you are swept away with every passing fad.

[ralphthepoodle]

Originally Posted by kodimerlyn

I think Willi is currently being fed Fromm so will be checking that out tonight at Rens and may put both dogs on it.

I def. have more research to do. It was interesting to read the most of my suspicions were correct.

My reference to lack of regulation in food in Canada is due to my lack of knowledge on how pet food is regulated in the U.S. Canada seems to have stricter laws for food and drugs but I think we are on par with the U.S. regarding pet food. Mind you with the IAMS debaucle a few years ago I think the laws are changing here and have changed but not sure how good they are...off to investigate them now.

I know Fromm has never had a recall before (: I am not similar with how dog food is made in Canada I am going to be going to the local Purina plant for the blog on my site this summer. But I am not an expert by any means. I just know Ralph likes Fromm and I am a fan of the brand (:

[Britster]

Originally Posted by kodimerlyn

Sorry...it's chicken MEAL not by product. Still I would prefer to see JUST chicken.

FWIW, there's nothing wrong with chicken meal. It's in a lot of the so-called "high quality" pet foods too. It's actually better, IMO, than just listing "chicken" because if it's simply chicken, it would actually be moved farther down the ingredient list due to the removal of water content (which is about 80%) so it ends up only weighing about 20% of it's entire weight. If that makes sense.

My personal feelings have changed a lot over the past 3 1/2 years. When I first got a dog, I was very much of the "I've known tons of dogs who have lived to be 16 or more on foods like purina, kibbles n bits, etc. Why change?!?" but then I slowly began more research, and changed my mind. Then I became ALL about all the foods that are super high in protein, have a ton of different meats, etc, etc.

Now I think I am somewhere in the middle. I think "thriving" can mean a lot of different things to different people. I've seen ppl say their dog is "really healthy" while eating such food as Kibbles n Bits but I look and see an over-weight dog, who has a dull coat, awful teeth/breath, smelly ears, and smell in general. Sure maybe they live to be 16, but at what kind of quality of life?

On the other hand, there are WAY too many factors to say "Well this dog lived to be 17 on x food, and this dog died while eating y food at 8". Genetics, environment, exercise... so many things play in.

I don't like a ton of chemicals to be in a food - I look out for BHT, BHA, ethoxyquin, menadione, etc (All of which Purina has, I believe). I'd prefer no by-products, but am honestly unsure now how I feel about them in general. I don't think they are as bad as they've been made to sound, but I still don't believe it to be ideal. I can't personally look at a food and see an ingredient list w/ corn, byproduct meal, unnamed meat sources, powdered cellulose and think "YEAH!!! This Diet is MADE for my dog!!" LOL... but I also don't think it's going to KILL a dog and sure, many dogs live happily ever after eating it.

I think you can look at the ingredient lists of some foods and they look fantastic yet I'd never feed them because I don't trust their company and their quality control (ex: Merrick, TOTW, Evangers).

I do not believe kibble to be natural in any way for dogs - I think canned is the best choice. However I feed kibble because hey, it works, and it's the easiest and it costs too much to feed solely canned. But doesn't mean I believe it to be most ideal. Honeslty the whole idea of kibble was based upon marketing and how they can sell it to the public. In the late 1850s, a young electrician from Cincinnati named James Spratt went to London to sell lightning rods. When his ship arrived, crew members threw the leftover “ships biscuits” onto the dock, where they were devoured by hordes of waiting dogs. So he then had the idea to make cheap, easy to serve biscuits and sell them and BOOM the pet food industry was born. By 1964 the Pet Food Institute, a lobbying group for the now-gigantic pet food industry, began a campaign to get people to stop feeding their dogs anything but packaged dog food. They funded “reports” that appeared in magazines, detailing the benefits of processed dog food and even produced a radio spot about “the dangers of table scraps" and by that point... were spending $50 million in advertising.

In other words, there is a LOT of money going behind pushing the public to believe that x kibble is the BEST and y kibble is superior, and premium for ALL brands... and every company is guilty of it. Yes, I love Fromm, but look at their "you wouldn't eat Italian for dinner every night!" slogan, and Champion and their "Fresh regional sourced ingreidents" and Royal Canin and "Each breed needs to eat something different!!" In the end, it's all marketing.

And I have a few companies that I really do respect and like and feed their food, but it doesn't mean I am so gullible to believe that it's all fine and dandy and everything going into my pet food is like a gourmet meal...

So basically my *current* companies I like (and this can always change) is Champion, Fromm, Earthborn, Canine Caviar, Precise, Petcurean... and there may be another, can't remember. But now I mainly look for food produced in their OWN manufacturing plant for starters. And yes I do prefer no recalls but a recall that was handled properly doesn't bother me as much as it used to.... Hey, it happens, and human food is recalled all the time... so I think it's all about how a business chooses to handle it.

Overall, Jackson has done best on grain-free (or low grains) in terms of hair/skin, breath, teeth, poop, energy, muscle definition, etc. I experimented with lower protein and wasnt happy with the results. So back on Acana he went and the changes were incredible... his energy was back, his coat was no longer lackluster, no more itchies, etc. So anyways for my personal dog, I know what works. For a dog who does awful on high protein/or whatever, but does fantastic on RC... well then RC is a superior food to THAT dog. Jackson is a picture of health at the moment, and had fantastic bloodwork while eating Acana, and vet always comments on how great in shape he is...

ANYWAYS that was long..... but those are my thoughts.

[ralphthepoodle]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Do you have any science at all to back that statement up? Here's some information about author of the site that I quoted:



Here's information on the authors of Dog Food Analysis:


An interest in nutrition, what does that mean? Pretty much anyone here could be an editor there. They have no solid credentials, they have no formal training. Like it or not nutrition is a science, you need to understand the science behind nutrition before you can have a informed opinion. Otherwise, you are swept away with every passing fad.

I dont think that I am a dog food expert by any means (: I just like Fromm as I said in my other post Ralph can not have corn because he is allergic. BUT i know a lot of dogs who have corn in there food that are 100% healthy and fine (: So I am not saying there is a bad food or a good food. As for the site I just found it to be a helpful site. I dont know a ton about dog food. I do know Ralph has a gorgeous coat, Happy tummy, 100% healthy and no longer having his other issues since we have been on Fromm But every dog is different. (:

[kodimerlyn]

Originally Posted by Sweet Girls

I started my "dog food journey" so to speak because I have a dog that has/had food sensitivities/health concerns. (Not my yorkie) but now that I home-cook, it doesn't make sense that I wouldn't provide both my dogs with the same quality of food...so they are both on home-cooked. It is what works for me balancing my need to have control of what is in their food and convenience (they have both been on raw in the past). Both my dogs are small, and it really isn't that bad to cook/prepare their food ahead of time. What it boils down to for me is the control...Home-cooking gives me the greatest control on what goes in (quality and quantity), how it is prepared, and how it is stored. So far, so good. And my dog with the health issues? Currently her vet declares her to be the healthiest she has ever been!

This is exactly the conclusion that I am coming to as well. I think in the end the ONLY way to know for sure what is going into your dogs food is by making it yourself! I used to make huge batches and freeze it in portions and then add good supplements. I think I'm going to consider doing that again. Means giving up a Saturday once a month but I think it's worth it in the end for the peace of mind in knowing my dogs are getting healthy food. I wish it was that easy for cats!

[kodimerlyn]

Originally Posted by Britster

FWIW, there's nothing wrong with chicken meal. It's in a lot of the so-called "high quality" pet foods too. It's actually better, IMO, than just listing "chicken" because if it's simply chicken, it would actually be moved farther down the ingredient list due to the removal of water content (which is about 80%) so it ends up only weighing about 20% of it's entire weight. If that makes sense.

My personal feelings have changed a lot over the past 3 1/2 years. When I first got a dog, I was very much of the "I've known tons of dogs who have lived to be 16 or more on foods like purina, kibbles n bits, etc. Why change?!?" but then I slowly began more research, and changed my mind. Then I became ALL about all the foods that are super high in protein, have a ton of different meats, etc, etc.

Now I think I am somewhere in the middle. I think "thriving" can mean a lot of different things to different people. I've seen ppl say their dog is "really healthy" while eating such food as Kibbles n Bits but I look and see an over-weight dog, who has a dull coat, awful teeth/breath, smelly ears, and smell in general. Sure maybe they live to be 16, but at what kind of quality of life?

On the other hand, there are WAY too many factors to say "Well this dog lived to be 17 on x food, and this dog died while eating y food at 8". Genetics, environment, exercise... so many things play in.

I don't like a ton of chemicals to be in a food - I look out for BHT, BHA, ethoxyquin, menadione, etc (All of which Purina has, I believe). I'd prefer no by-products, but am honestly unsure now how I feel about them in general. I don't think they are as bad as they've been made to sound, but I still don't believe it to be ideal. I can't personally look at a food and see an ingredient list w/ corn, byproduct meal, unnamed meat sources, powdered cellulose and think "YEAH!!! This Diet is MADE for my dog!!" LOL... but I also don't think it's going to KILL a dog and sure, many dogs live happily ever after eating it.

I think you can look at the ingredient lists of some foods and they look fantastic yet I'd never feed them because I don't trust their company and their quality control (ex: Merrick, TOTW, Evangers).

I do not believe kibble to be natural in any way for dogs - I think canned is the best choice. However I feed kibble because hey, it works, and it's the easiest and it costs too much to feed solely canned. But doesn't mean I believe it to be most ideal. Honeslty the whole idea of kibble was based upon marketing and how they can sell it to the public. In the late 1850s, a young electrician from Cincinnati named James Spratt went to London to sell lightning rods. When his ship arrived, crew members threw the leftover “ships biscuits” onto the dock, where they were devoured by hordes of waiting dogs. So he then had the idea to make cheap, easy to serve biscuits and sell them and BOOM the pet food industry was born. By 1964 the Pet Food Institute, a lobbying group for the now-gigantic pet food industry, began a campaign to get people to stop feeding their dogs anything but packaged dog food. They funded “reports” that appeared in magazines, detailing the benefits of processed dog food and even produced a radio spot about “the dangers of table scraps" and by that point... were spending $50 million in advertising.

In other words, there is a LOT of money going behind pushing the public to believe that x kibble is the BEST and y kibble is superior, and premium for ALL brands... and every company is guilty of it. Yes, I love Fromm, but look at their "you wouldn't eat Italian for dinner every night!" slogan, and Champion and their "Fresh regional sourced ingreidents" and Royal Canin and "Each breed needs to eat something different!!" In the end, it's all marketing.

And I have a few companies that I really do respect and like and feed their food, but it doesn't mean I am so gullible to believe that it's all fine and dandy and everything going into my pet food is like a gourmet meal...

So basically my *current* companies I like (and this can always change) is Champion, Fromm, Earthborn, Canine Caviar, Precise, Petcurean... and there may be another, can't remember. But now I mainly look for food produced in their OWN manufacturing plant for starters. And yes I do prefer no recalls but a recall that was handled properly doesn't bother me as much as it used to.... Hey, it happens, and human food is recalled all the time... so I think it's all about how a business chooses to handle it.

Overall, Jackson has done best on grain-free (or low grains) in terms of hair/skin, breath, teeth, poop, energy, muscle definition, etc. I experimented with lower protein and wasnt happy with the results. So back on Acana he went and the changes were incredible... his energy was back, his coat was no longer lackluster, no more itchies, etc. So anyways for my personal dog, I know what works. For a dog who does awful on high protein/or whatever, but does fantastic on RC... well then RC is a superior food to THAT dog. Jackson is a picture of health at the moment, and had fantastic bloodwork while eating Acana, and vet always comments on how great in shape he is...

ANYWAYS that was long..... but those are my thoughts.

EXCELLENTLY WRITTEN and VERY well said! I concur whole heartedly!! Honestly I think you just summed up exactly the conclusion that I have been heading towards for a very long time! Find what works for YOUR dog and feed it. Period. Doesn't matter if one says something is CRAP (without meaning to offend and doing so anyway!) : and someone else says something else is WAY better. It would seem that I fell for the marketing in buying the RC (my cats were not that happy on it at all....a lot of barfing for my older guy) and Legacy (Archer couldn't gain weight), instead of recognizing that they need to like and enjoy their food too! So...I guess in the end I should have just kept my mouth shut but I'm glad I didn't because I wouldn't have read your thread and it propbably would have taken longer for me to have this epiphany!! THANK YOU!!

[candigirl]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Do you have any science at all to back that statement up?

I didn't feel like getting into a debate here but have you educated yourself on the biology of canines and what should be a part of a species appropriate diet?. The science i need is knowing that my dog is a carnivore and does not need to be consuming corn. It is a cheap filler, difficult to digest and what little nutrients it provides can be found in better ingredients suited for a dogs dietary needs.

[LondonRee]

As I am new to dog ownership I haven't yet started my food journey yet, but I do know my friend loves this brand - Natural and Organic Dog Food and Cat Food | Lily's Kitchen

It is a smaller UK brand, but has great marketing to support its quality ideals. Its pricey, but I may consider trying it, considering small dogs don't need to eat too much!

[navillusc]

Originally Posted by kodimerlyn

I think Willi is currently being fed Fromm so will be checking that out tonight at Rens and may put both dogs on it.

I def. have more research to do. It was interesting to read the most of my suspicions were correct.

My reference to lack of regulation in food in Canada is due to my lack of knowledge on how pet food is regulated in the U.S. Canada seems to have stricter laws for food and drugs but I think we are on par with the U.S. regarding pet food. Mind you with the IAMS debaucle a few years ago I think the laws are changing here and have changed but not sure how good they are...off to investigate them now.

Origen appears to be a very quality food...they at lest attempt to make the feed "species specific" including things that particular animal in a natural state 'would' eat of its own initiative...and it def comes from Canada according to their website.

I don't know about laws or regulation in Canada, but in the USA even regulation is not always reliable. For example, even on regulated (required to be listed as an ingredient) items, it is only the 'ingredient' that must be listed...such as "msg" but when a "broth" that contains high quantities of monosodium glutamate (an "msg") the requirement only applies to the "broth" ingredient but no requirement exists to list the individual "broth" ingredients themselves. Since I am extremely 'chemical sensitive' and make my own 'broth' I had a considerable amount of research to do before I learned that I could be/was being made sick even by "chicken" that had been pre-infused by "broth" as is being done by some companies, or marinated in "broth" or "bouillon". As you can well imagine, from my research on human foods alone, I immediately reject pet foods containing "broth" or "bouillon" etc. if not for other ingredients.

Then there is that whole hormone/antibiotic thing, including companies that say they don't give the chickens antibiotics...instead, they inject the unhatched egg with them.

Also, what about fluoridation etc. of the processing water as well...there is no requirement in the USA to mention that little detail...or whether an ingredient is GMO...products containing a ".5" qty/serving of hydrogenated fats/oils are being 'allowed' to "round down" and print "0% trans fats" on the pkg like there aren't any trans-isomer fats at all ...and more. But, things like this happen when regulation only stipulates certain specific requirements...companies find a way around the regulation looking for a profitable 'edge' for their own products, and the rest is up to the individual to diligently research...forget about 'free time' if you start that particular quest, however and that's 'nuff o'that for now.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by candigirl

I didn't feel like getting into a debate here but have you educated yourself on the biology of canines and what should be a part of a species appropriate diet?. The science i need is knowing that my dog is a carnivore and does not need to be consuming corn. It is a cheap filler, difficult to digest and what little nutrients it provides can be found in better ingredients suited for a dogs dietary needs.

Yes, and dogs are not pure carnivores, but opportunistic. No one said a dog NEEDED corn, it's a source of carbs, I don't believe a dog food should be 100% protein. It is not difficult to digest if it's cooked. I believe corn got a bad name because some dog food companies used it to boast the total protein count because it's contains several amino acids, but it lacks a couple, so it shouldn't be used as the primary protein in some expert’s opinion.