Not sure what to do about Macie's breeder...
 

As some of you may know, Macie passed away due to undeveloped organs on Monday.

Ive been on contact with her breeder about the health agreement. Shes been very helpful. She has stated that she will honor the agreement by giving me another puppy.

She has given me 3 options. I can

1) get Macie's sister who is 10 months and weighs only 2.5lbs. :eek:

2) Wait for Macie's parents to have pups again, which will be in about 8 months.

3) Pick from a litter that is due in June. The female I believe is small.


She explained that she did get Macie's parents vet checked and he said they are ok to breed.

From previous emails, I know her dogs are only 3lbs-4lbs maybe. Like Ive stated previously, Macie only grew to 2lbs 13oz. Her sister is only 2.5lbs.

Im really not sure what to do b/c 1) Idk if I could handle getting Macie's sister. I remember they looked ALOT alike. 2) Shes still VERY tiny for her age.

She also told me Macie is the last puppy she sold. As far as the other pups in the litter, Im not sure if they are healthy or not. She says Ella is.

Any advice with this situation would be helpful.

I would not be emotionally strong enough to get another dog from a breeder who produced a dog with undeveloped organs. I would want my money back. I would take her to small claims court. If she's breeding tiny females, I believe that is really cruel, and I would not want to be any part of that abuse. I’m very sorry for the loss of your dog. Please look for a breeder who isn’t breeding tinies. Good breeders pet them out, they don’t breed them.

I don't know about breeders and such, I bought Bella from an individual that was looking to rehome and she was 16 months old. But I think Nancy might be right. I'm sorry about your loss tho. It's is heartbreaking to loose one.

well i do not know the whole story but if the breeder is willing to give you
macies sister, will she provide you with proof that the parents are healthy.
will she get the puppy vet checked and provide medical records?
if you do want the little sister get her if she is healthy

I'm sorry for your loss of little Macie:unlove: Poor baby:cry:

I'd be SUPER DUPER hesitant to even get another pup from this breeder, whether it was from the same parents or not. Why is she even breeding those same dogs again? Sounds like she breeds tinies and that is a big NO NO!

I'd get a refund, if it was me. If I had to take her to court, then so be it. Just how I feel about it. Good luck whatever you decide to do:)

Yes I agree. She said Ella has had a full panel of blood work ran. I feel like I just want to save Ella from the whole situation b/c I dont want to take a chance on that breeder trying to breeder her.

I would prefer not to make it a sticky situation. Plus I probably would end up paying more money for small claims court.

Since Macie's health contract still has two months on it, Ella would be covered during that time.

She did send me a really long email about the vet visit and what he said. Im just not sure if I should post it here.

You could get her sister just know that you could e setting yourself up for more heartaches later on

Small claims court costs only a $25.00 filing fee. I'm pretty sure even a bad breeder won't breed a 2.5 pound dog. I feeling strongly about not rescuing dogs from bad breeders, you are enabling them to continue the abuse of dogs. I would not take her word for "what the vet said." If you decide you just have to have this dog, I hope you will at least talk to the vet yourself. Tell him about your experience.

When people try to breed dogs to be a certain way - be it size or color, you always get these defects.

Get a normal size Yorkie from healthy Yorkie parents.

A 4lb yorkie isn't any cuter than a 7 or 10 pound yorkie.

If I did go to court, how could I even win? It clearly states in my contract that I would receive another puppy.

Wow. That's a hard one. I don't think I would want another dog from that breeder especially since she is consistently producing tiny puppies. I guess you have to abide by the contract and if there was no stipulation about returning your money you may not get anything.

Getting her sister would be very difficult. She may look like your baby but she is not going to act like your baby. You don't know how well trained she is either. Has she ever done the breeding of the upcoming litter before? If so what was the result? Your dealing with someone who is breeding for some very shady reasons. Tiny dogs are popular but for every healthy one there is at least one sick puppy that lives a short life full of sickness. I can understand your wanting to get your money back but I don't know that you will get it. I can also understand wanting another puppy but that is taking such a big risk.

Breeders who breed to standard, have dogs that are less than 7 pounds for the most part. Standard is "must not exceed 7 pounds." A four pound yorkie is fine as a pet, but a breeder shouldn't be breeding it. Anything under 4 pounds, usually has more health problems.

As many of us have learned the hard way about how to find a healthy pup and what to look for... you sure have. I am so very sorry this has been so hard on you.

I do question why this breeder would breed the parents again, if Marcie's illness was genetics. Also the size.. it makes me nervious that someone would breed small females.

But....what is your legal choices? There is a good chance Ella would be ok (I have the brother of a female that dies of a kidney defect.. a different breed) and he is very healthy (three year latter) but maybe I just got very lucky!!! And how would you feel with Ella?

If you only have the choice of a pup as replacement you either take one or not. You may or may not win that fight.

So what would I do? If I could I would fight for my money and vet bills back.. if not I would ask to see any documentation on the second litter and maybe take of of the pups from that litter.

Good luck

The contract was written to protect the breeder not you, a judge knows this and takes that into account. She has to live up to the terms of the contract more than you do. If the dog had died of a common ailment, it wouldn't be as fearful getting another dog from this breeder, but since the dog died from undeveloped organs, I think a judge would understand why you would be leery to receive another from the same breeder. Also, you could print out material from the YTCA, which is the mother club, which says that breeders shouldn't be breeding a dog under 5 pounds. Is this the same breeder you asked about in another thread?

What reason did the breeder give for keeping Macie's sister? I personally wouldn't want a yorkie quite that small, but I know some people prefer tinies.

A pup from the same parents...yikes. Not sure where I'd fall on this one. Look at all the humans that have one offspring with defects yet the others siblings are fine.

I'd probably choose option 3 and have the pick of a litter.

Whatever you chose, I hope it works out well for you and you get a healthy puppy to love & raise.

My gut is telling me not to do it, so Im going to go with that.

I did email her and ask about a refund or a partial refund. I explained to her that Macie was too small for my liking and her sister is just as small.

Im waiting for a reply, but Im not holding my breath.

First off I am so sorry for your loss I am assuming you have and are still having a rough time, so take a breath and do what you are doing seek advice and think about it for a while. I don't believe small claims court cost that much, just perhaps filing fees, I believe it is set up for situations like this where the attorney fees would outweigh the fees awarded. Regardless if you want to pursue it, I would still explore it because you might be able to use it as a negotiation tool later on.

If the sister is healthy the big decision to me would be if you want a puppy that will weigh 3 lbs or less. If your lifestyle and homelife fits with a three pound dog then you could consider that option but if it does not I would look to a breeder that breeds to standard. I am wondering why she has not sold the sister, do you know.

Since she is willing to give you the sister or the June puppy I would make a suggestion to the breeder and say Look I don't want the sister and I can imagine you can understand all the reasons why that would be hard for me to deal with. I also don't think I am ready for the demands of a puppy, but since you would lose the sale money by giving me the puppy instead of to the buyer I would prefer you sell the puppy and give me that money." By doing this it's really a wash for the breeder. You also might find it easier to have someone else do the negotiations for you. I know what it is like when you are emotionally invested and have probably gotten to know the breeder so it much harder to be strong and forceful with her. Also it is sometime easier to do this in writing, this way you can get your point across before she butts in with her point and before you know it you are off the track of what you were going to say.

2. Ask her to sell the sister and give you the money from that sale or
3. Ask her to sell one of the June puppies and give you

Thanks for the information. Also, no she is a different breeder. I've never stated Macie's breeder information on this site. I probably will eventually post a review once this situation is over.

Again, I want to say how badly I feel for you. I had a dog with a genetic problem who died at an early age, and it left a lifetime mark on me, and it's the reason I'm such an extreme advocate for finding the best breeder who will sell to you. Yes, even great breeders can have sick dogs, but you are increasing your chances of having a healthy dog when you go to a good breeder.

I meant to delete those last two line in my post.
The problem with these health guarantees is all they do is offer a new puppy, well most people don't want another dog from a breeder that seels you one that does not have good health. It's not like a car where if a part breaks while it is under warranty you get an exact duplicate. This is a living creature, no two animals are a like you should not have to have one forced down your throat you should be able to pick a puppy that is right for you. I doubt most breeder contracts would hold up in a court of law anyway.

If you want any help with writing letters or negotiations I will help if I can, I normally am pretty good at convicing someone to see it my way.

I am sorry for your lost. I can understand your wanting another furbaby. Just think about it and make the best decision that you can. We all have different opinions but you ultimately have to live with your decision. Just know we are here for you whatever you decide. I have a feeling you already know in your heart what you want to do.

Spruitt I am just reading this thread. First of all I'm so very sorry you lost your pup.

For me the decision not to get another dog from this breeder would be a whole lot of emotions. I just could not do it, for a whole lot of reasons

But I hope in future you would not enter into a contract with any breeder, that only offered a replacement puppy. That is not a good for the buyer contract at all.

I hope you do a review on this breeder.

I have a tiny dog. You don't want one. You should never want one if you do any level of research.

It was a fluke that mine came out this tiny because her parents were normal size. She charted out to be around 5lbs but stopped growing at 2.5. My breeder wasn't going to adopt her out to anyone because she was concerned about her health. She specifically adopted her to me because she knew I'd not only love her dearly, but be able to manage the financial aspect of anything that would come up. She had turned quite a few people down to adopt her because she doesn't breed for tinies. I was well informed of the risks before I agreed to take her. Of course, it helps that my breeder and I are friends. She also knew me well enough to know there's no way I'd ever consider breeding her. In fact, I don't even think I have her AKC papers anymore. I never sent them in anyway.

So far, she's been fairly healthy with the exception of a few upset tummies that lead us to the vet for supportive care. But I consider myself lucky. I also don't skimp on checkups and tests to keep checking. Things could easily pop up later and if they do, I'm somewhat prepared for that. Emotionally, I don't think I could ever prepare for it. However, I can also take comfort in knowing I've given her the best life a dog could possibly have.

Dont most breeders state that they will "replace the puppy"

I am sooo sorry for your loss. Personally I would not want another dog from this breeder. I got my two from a byb...fortunatly for me they are healthy...I am looking to add another furbaby to my crew..she has told me she has a litter due soon...however thanks to YT i know not to take that chance again, i will look eleswhere. Go with your gut and do what is best for you...your heart will never steer you wrong. Please keep us posted on what you decide.Good luck to you in whatever you decide, just know my heart goes out to you and prayers for you and Macy.
Jacqui

I'm sorry that you have lost your baby and I have no idea what I would do in the same situation. I'm sure you are still grieving and wanting a puppy to raise and love. I just pray to give you strength to do what is best for you, you only have to make yourself happy. Take care...(((HUGS)))

I am so sorry for your loss. Maybe the breeder would let you have your vet check the new baby and assure you if she is healthy.

I would try to get $ refunded, then you could choose to get another dog later, or not.

If you are sure you want one, SOON, then I would opt for the other litter, not the sister. Hopefully the pups in June won't be so tiny.

I think the sister would never measure up in your eyes. You'd look at her and think, Macie didn't do that, or Macie did this. You'd be reminded too much of her. Also, she is very small.

Please do get SOMETHING in writing before your year is up. Verbal agreements never stand up and you don't want the breeder saying it's too late. Read your contract carefully and make sure it doesn't mention "refund" anywhere. Also, what about reimbursement for vet bills?

This is her first email to me:

Stephanie,

Just so you know, David is my son, He had purchased Jesse & Cali from me for family Pets, he owns Jesse & Cali. I will tell you they were both born in my home, and from healthy parents and healthy grandparents etc. I know the linage well. The Yorkies are pets first, but are allowed to breed on occasion. I never breed my females every cycle and neither will David. So Cali was skipped about two months ago. So she will not be in heat again for 6 months. Then it takes 63 days for dropping the litter. Then it takes 8 to 12 weeks for them to be ready.
My son David has talked with his Vet and showed him all the paper work. Dr Moony is aware of the good linage & history of healthy pups for years. He seems to think that this was caused by something she ate & or a birth defect or both. He also explained a birth defect can happen to the smallest of litter, mostly when they was the first to drop from the litter. He also claims this can happen to anyone that breeds over time, even though they have had healthy pups. It may never occur again. Even though vets suspect Liver shunt because of condition, he said a Liver shunt is not conclusive. It was obvious that Macie had Kidney Stones. All her litter mates are fine. The Vet assured David that a birth defect will happen to any breeder that breeds long enough... He is confident that Jesse & Cali are fine to breed. I am just heart broken that this happened to Macie, our last puppy we sold.
Your puppy will be replaced. You will only be responsible for the shipping of puppy as contract states.

Option #1 - Ella - Ella is Macie's litter mate - so she is the age of Macie.. She just got fixed on Tuesday - and Dr Moony ran a full blood panel on her, so she has been tested. - Ella weighs 2.5 pounds - Ella & her name is registered, but AKC allows for new owners to change name. I am sure they charge something for the change of name, but I have never changed one myself and this is a recent option that they made available.

Option #2 - Wait for David's Jesse & Cali next litter - which is still approx 8 months away before the dropping the litter. - Last litter was 3 girls & 2 boys.

Option #3 - Maryann's Mick & Esme - Which is due to drop drop puppies the later part of June. - I do not know a lot about Maryann's Esme - Jesse sired a litter with her that was adorable 3 girls & 2 boys. I only had contact with Becky Howard that purchased David's pick of the litter Little Clio, she had purchased two other yorkies Kyra & Cali (another Cali... seems to be a popular name).. from me in the past. When grown Becky's Clio finally reached 4 pound she is a lover girl from what Becky says, where Cali is more mischievous. Mick & Esme has had a litter together before. I think 1 girl & 3 3oys.

This is a list of first available puppies. I may also have another available from Patti, but I still have to check on that status, I am actually waiting to hear from Patti: I have retired from breeding due to age & health issues. However, I have pick of a few litters from other people. You will have a few months left on Macie's contract, that will be forwarded to your choice of an available puppy. I will have a panel run on any puppy available that you choose, like Ella just had. I would like to state, that I am requesting you to feed the Hill's Science Diet Small bites (dry pebbles) for toy breed for the remainder of the contract that is left.

Another thing is on new litters upcoming you can not guarantee size etc. - We will not know until the drop if they are male or female. Sometimes litters occasionally drop all boys or all girls. If on the occasion of an all boy litter we would have to wait until the next available litter.

Let me know which you would like: I have been trying to get your options to you as soon as possible. Because of our commitment next week where I will not be available.




This is her second email when I told her I was scared and wanted a refund:

Stephanie,

Sorry I do not do refunds. Only replacement of a puppy. That is explain in the contract. I do not replace puppies because they were to small. A person can not guarantee a size of a puppy.

Just because something happens to one does not mean, that any others are that way or will be that way. All my puppies are with AKC and can be tracked and verified that they are healthy. Except for Macie. I believe any Vet would tell you the same as Dr Moony told David. So you can not be scared of that, because that would stop you from buying from any breeder, because this could happen to anyone.. Macie is the first offspring to ever be afflicted.

The only time after talking with other breeders, that I purchased a puppy back was when a women found out she was dying with cancer and couldn't she was not going to be able to care for him. By standards of other breeders, I did a buy back on him for 1/2 the purchased price.
I actually wish I knew when Macie first got sick so our Vets could have been monitoring this from day one. Then I could have had a choice to come and get her before she was put down and do try more to do more help her.

So exactly what are wanting me to do?