I knew that was your voice I was hearing!!!! lolololol

It does not matter to me where it is. That does not change the fact that it is not about education. What is really at the bottom of it, I can only surmise; but anyone who spends enough time reading the posts on this forum realizes that this is not the way to educate the majority of members and others who read this forum. I don't call this educational at all...once there is a concensus, perhaps it will be educational. There is no concensus and it is merely causing dissent.
Very sad. The only ones hurt by things like this are the pups who depend on us.

You, I and anyone else can post, discuss or challenge each others thought and opinions. We are not your children that need to be disciplined or schooled into your line of thinking. Post away but be prepared to be challenge in your conclusions and opinions that you draw from reading papers written by medical professional and try to draw your own conclusions by piecing together medical terminology beyond the layperon's capabilities.

I do not believe science has ever been discussed dispassionately at any time in history. Part of the human condition. There is always an agenda.

I also do not believe information is for the few. This is why I said this subject challenges my core beliefs. I advocate spaying/neutering pets, but I do not believe in telling anyone to do anything without thinking. I dumped our first vet for treating me that way.

At the same, I do not like the title of this thread, the "if ever." It suggests a position on the issue that Gail says she does not support for most pets.

This ^, the bolded parts.

For any owner, I think it's quintessentially important to make INFORMED decisions - no matter what the mainstream is doing. We absolutely *should* understand what we're taking away from our pets when removing their organs, for petes sake!

That's one reason this thread is informative and important and educational. It doesn't have to be a pro-spay-neuter/anti-spay-neuter thread unless people choose to make it that way and read into it that way.

I don't believe this is about informing/educating yorkie owners. I believe it is anti spay/neuter. I agree that the "if ever" wording speaks volumes.

I also believe that one must consider the audience before attempting to educate. That is not being done....and this breed is already damaged by oopsies as I noted before. Until it is proven that spaying/neutering dogs at a certain age is more damaging that the benefits, I would certainly hope and pray that people would speak with their veterinarians. Some of the things posted online are merely scare tactics. I have been aware of this "movement" for some time and it bothers me greatly that it was begun by the breeding community that seeks to blame everyone but themselves for what has been done to certain breeds...that includes Golden Retrievers...cancers are not from spay/neuter I am so sure. I believe it is due to breeding. Proof? I don't have that...it is simply what I have derived from my vet and a few people who I know who have owned and/or rescued them.

As for yorkies....to suggest that torn CCL's are due to anything but breeding is crazy imo. It is well known that most of those injuries are due to luxating patellas .. and those are considered genetic. Breeders know that, but they are not willing to take the blame for their messes. Instead they are going out of their way to suggest it is early spay/neuter. :rolleyes:

I agree, the audience should be considered.

I also believe breeding/genetics is the primary source of health problems discussed in this thread (with environmental/human factors contributing, i.e. overfeeding and not exercising the pet) .

I do not mean 'agenda' in a negative way. It's human nature to have a motivation to do something, a goal, a need, and bias. Not even Einstein was a machine.

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: This is not an anti-spay thread in the least. It exists to provide complete information about the effects of spaying, both good and bad. If ANYONE has a link to any article relevant to this topic that is behind a pay firewall and they can't access it, send me a private message with your email address and the link to the article in question and I will email you the PDF, and you can copy and paste the parts you think relevant to this thread. Just keep in mind the copyright laws and post only the parts you will be actively discussing--it's not a violation of copyright law to do that.

One more article for the road. I google scholared "health benefits of neutering dogs" and this is the first article that popped up. Please note that ANY scientific article on spaying and neutering in dogs is going to discuss the risks and benefits. They will not sugar-coat the truth to favor any agenda. It is not fair to ask people to censor what they have to say about spaying and neutering, especially when they are providing factual information. The overwhelming consensus is that spaying and neutering is beneficial for most dogs. That consensus is reached by weighing the pros and cons. Excerpts from the article below. To be clear which parts are the article, and which parts are my comments, I will put the quotes from the article in bold:

Gonadectomy in Cats and Dogs: A Review of Risks and Benefits, by IM Reichler. Reprod Dom Anim 44 (Suppl. 2), 29–35 (2009); doi: 10.1111/j.1439-0531.2009.01437.x

Contents

The necessity, and in particular the timing, of gonadectomy in dogs and cats is still controversial. This is mainly because gonadectomy confers a mixture of benefits and adverse effects that depend upon the age at neutering, sex, species and breed. In this paper, the long-term risks and benefits of gonadectomy, at various ages, in dogs and cats are reviewed using data describing the effects of desexing on the urogenital tract and on other medical conditions, such as orthopaedic diseases, immune-mediated development and behaviour.

Introduction

Contraception through surgical sterilization or gonadectomy (GX) is usually an irreversible intervention that results in a permanent cessation of reproductive function. Surgical methods where the gonads are removed, are ovariectomy (OVE) or ovariohysterectomy (OVH), through the linea alba or via the flank or laparoscopy (Davidson et al. 2004; Devitt et al. 2005). In contrast to the removal of the gonads, sterilization by means of a vasectomy and salpingectomy also results in the elimination of reproductive function, but the sexual behaviour and the incidence of diseases caused by sexual hormones are not influenced.

GX to Control Pet Overpopulation

Until now, GX is the contraceptive technique of choice. As GX is irreversible, spay programmes are widely accepted for population control. In spite of worldwide efforts to reduce pet overpopulation, the number of unwanted dogs and cats is still increasing (New 2006). Researchers worldwide are searching for a single and simple contraceptive method that results in the permanent elimination of reproduction, but at signifi- cantly less cost than neutering. In male dogs, for instance, this can be achieved by the intratesticular injection of zinc gluconate (Levy et al. 2008). Spaying of female dogs and cats is still recommended to avoid high population densities, animal suffering and the spread of zoonoses. The castration of tomcats is also recommended, because castrated cats have on average better health and a reduced mortality rate than intact cats (Kalz 2001).

The necessity, and in particular the timing, of GX in dogs and cats kept as pets is still controversial. This is mainly because GX confers a mixture of benefits and adverse affects depending on age at neutering, sex, species and breed and it has been proposed that ‘Any policy decision should consider the frequency and consequences of any condition’ (Spain 2006).

[From here, the article goes on to discuss the effects of gonadectomy (neutering) on various parts of the body, pro and con. The parts considered are: Effect of Spaying on the Reproductive Tract, Effect of GX on the Development of Tumours of the Reproductive Tract, Sparing effect of spaying on the development of mammary tumours (MT), GX and survival rate after MT removal, Effect of spaying on tumours of the genital tract, Effect of spaying on external genitalia, Effects of Testicular Removal on the Genital Tract, Prostate cancer (PC), Effects of the timing of testicular removal on the genital tract, Effects of GX on the Lower Urinary Tract, Urinary incontinence (UI), Transitional cell carcinoma (TCC), Effect of GX on Metabolism, Body weight, Diabetes mellitus (DM), Hypothyroidism, Effects of GX on the Musculoskeletal System, Growth, Fractures, Canine hip dysplasia (CHD), Cranial cruciate ligament rupture (CCLR), Osteosarcoma, Effects of GX on Various Conditions, Cardiac tumours, and Life expectancy.]

Since life expectancy is of the greatest concern to the average dog owner, I will quote that part in full, since it clearly states that life expectancy is increased by neutering:

Life expectancy

It is well documented that neutered animals live longer than intact animals (Kraft 1998; Greer et al. 2007). The increased life expectancy in gonadectomized animals may be due to the preventive effect on diseases of the reproductive tract and ⁄ or the reduced risk-associated behaviour. However, the increased life expectancy may also reflect to some extent the enhanced care of neutered animals by their owners.

It is clear that surgical contraception offers both significant health and welfare benefits; however, the risks and adverse effects should always be considered in each animal and should be subject to careful debate with the animal’s owner.
[end of article]

Thanks Phil I did wonder about that. I also wonder how we can tell if any research paper/article has been peer reviewed.

I also wonder how I could develop a program that will track which studies are being looked at when an article is written about spay/neuter. For example the above study could not have included the 250 Golden Retreiver study just released late last year/early this year nor the Viszla study from 2014.

If you use Google Scholar as your search engine (scholar.google.com), all of the articles will either be peer reviewed, or they will be books or chapters from textbooks, or they will be patents that have been reviewed by the US Patent Office.

The only sure way to figure out if an article has considered the research reported in a previous article is to look at the references section at the end of the article and see if the previous article is cited there. If you haven't used Google Scholar yet, give it a spin. You will be amazed at what you will find!

the if ever had a ? mark. And I meant that to suggest that much is not known especially by breed type of the long term health/benefit/risks equation. It means that I am open to being informed and educated, and am actively searching for that answer.

At this time in my mind a key question is the critical timing element. Six months is still an open question and Most especially for Males, and that is for the Yorkie breed. It is not an open question in my mind for medium to large breeds. Six months is way too early.

I am and have never been anti spay.neuter. But I am for choosing the timing wisely. I am for keeping current with new and breaking research.

An operation that is here in North America performed annually upon millions upon millions of dogs, needs to (and thank goodness the medical vet community and other interested parties have started to study the effects of same) is quite frankly necessary.

In terms of education. This board is for adults. Those who by now with the multiple pages of posts who wish to inform themselves of the research can do so with the links provided.

The decision on When to spay or neuter is one of the very important first decisions most pet owners or for that matter breeders must make. Another of course are vaccines and heartworm etc, not a topic for this thread.

I am neither here nor there with the issue myself. I feel like that there are pretty much equal pros/cons on both sides and I personally will likely always have my pets fixed (at an appropriate age) because 1) I'm lazy and 2) dog balls :p:D, I think they're ugly. And I will likely always have males. But I likely won't until 10 months++.

It keeps being mentioned that Gail has a motive or a bias, but I don't see how Ladyjane's position should be viewed upon differently, you obviously have a bias as well working in rescue. You see unfathomable things and very stupid dog owners. It's understandable that you would view this differently. But there's a whole 'nother world of dog ownership out there, i.e. dog sports for example. When you are raising/training an athlete, of sorts, there's lots of reasons you want to keep those hormones as well as delaying or never fixing. Go hang around an agility class for a while and you will see a ton of responsible owners who wish to keep their dog intact, and these are not your average joe schmo who are just going to let their dog get bred to any dog. This is not a black and white issue and I think we all need to remember and attempt to see the entire dog community from different perspectives.

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thum bup:

Brit, you clearly have not read all of my posts. Yes, I am in rescue and, yes, I cannot stand that there are so many irresponsible people in this world. BUT, I have made plenty of comments on this thread that have absolutely nothing, zero to do with rescue thoughts/influence.

I am not going to repeat myself...go back and read what I said...THEN, make your comments.

I said the breeders are ruining some of the breeds...definitely yorkies....and I said that you cannot compare a torn CCL to mammary tumors....just one position that I have stated. I said that the breeders are behind all of this as a way to take the heat off themselves for the messes they have created. I don't for one minute believe that torn CCLs in yorkies has anything to do with early spay/neuter. I believe it is a breeder induced issue as in genetic mess. Luxating patellas are so common now it is ridiculous and they are what leads to torn CCLs most of the time. Sheesh........ As I suggested, go read before making such a suggestion!

We hold puppies in our rescue for six months and then spay/neuter....IF it were absolutely proven that harm was being done (note there is no proof of this), then we would hold them until suggested. When it becomes absolutely true and not someones ideas/guesses/thoughts, then I will believe it. Not until then.

And, by the way, how many of the people who come to YT are raising athletic yorkies? :rolleyes:

:yelrotflmI admitted this superficial feeling of mine to someone in private. It's not completely superficial. I think part of it is that I so strongly support neutering for pets that the sight throws me back.

I understand what you are saying about people with sporting dogs, and this might apply to some with working dogs too. Likely much more responsible about everything than the average pet person. I would be interested in knowing what percentage of them are neutered, and what percentage of the pet population do they make up? With a sporting dog in particular, I'm guessing they are well bred or selected carefully, otherwise they would not advance in their sports.

So far, my neutered boys' legs and hips appear to be in great shape. Spines good too. Muscle tone very good. This is all without the benefit of off leash running outdoors. I bet they would be even better if we had a safe place.

I believe from reading YT for several years, the majority of cases of LP are initially diagnosed very early, before spay/neuter. Wonder how much we would learn about genetic (poor breeding) produced ortho problems if all Yorkie puppies were thoroughly screened before spay/neuter.

One of my collegues breeds Great Danes. He and his wife show and I would consider them responsible breeders. I think their stance on the spay/neuter in larger breed dogs is to wait until at least 18 months to allow for growth plate development. Based on research, it seems as though large breed dogs may have some difficulty since they grow to adulthood longer by 2-3 years old.

For yorkies or other small breed dogs I'm not sure how altering the dog prior to 18 months will change the outcome of the health of the animal.

This surely has been an interesting thread to read. I now have a female dog and I don't ever want to deal with a dog in heat so I plan to spay by 6 months (plus it's part of my breeder contract). This is my snobby thing, I don't want to deal with anyone's menstrual cycle but my own.

LMBO - CLASSIC! Thanks for adding a little levity to this subject :D. And you have a very good point!

I'm not speaking for Brit, but the way I read her post was that after she read the thread, she felt that it appeared there were some *very* strong pro-s/n advocates on this thread. Which is fine/great - nothing wrong w/ that. But I think she was seeing Gemy being a bit attacked for having some 'position', per se, while others who have the 'opposing position' (again, per se, not in fact) appeared to not allow the room for having a discussion or having an alternate position. I think she was saying "if we allow one position, why aren't we allowing all positions?" (with which, I agree). That was my take on her take :p. Now, your take of my take on her take could be completely different! :D

And just to be clear, I'm not saying you're pro this or anti that - only you can tell us your position, or whether you have one.

At the end of the day, this is a good discussion where we shouldn't worry (imho) about who supports this or that, but rather about how s/n affects our pets and why we make the decisions we do regarding their health...and how all this relates to current/past data and studies.

Athletic yorkies? ROFLMAO. I have a bunch of couch potatoes at home. Actually, I'm kidding, my dogs are very active and have a nice musculature to their lean bodies.

In regards to early neutering, I have a beautiful almost 14-year old male that was early neutered. Too early by today's 6-month common practice. He has been a predominantly healthy yorkie. He was diagnosed at 8 weeks of age (before he was neutered) with bilateral medial luxating patellas (grade I on one side and grade II on the other).

At age 11.5 he jumped off a bed onto a hardwood floor. He fully tore his CCL, tore his medial meniscus and knocked his knee out from a grade II to a grade III. His doctor said that this was a catastrophic injury...an accident.

We all know that a medial patellar luxation (MPL) is a GENETIC issue. Because of this genetic issue it sets the stage for a tear of a CCL. Dogs who have genetic MPL like our yorkies have a medial rotation of the tibial crest which in turn, causes a tension on the CCL. This is what predisposes Yorkies with MPL to tear their CCL. It makes sense that the worse the MPL, the more medial rotation of the tibial crest there will be, and thus more tension on the CCL leading to a tear. It's why many older dogs with MPLs tear their CCLs -- they've had a lifetime of tension on the CCL. Thus, it is GENETICS and TIBIAL FORCES (coupled at times with age) that tear CCLs in these yorkies, regardless of neuter status.

My beautiful Barney is now almost 14 years old. He not only survived his early neuter, but he has aged very well and almost everyone who meets him cannot believe he is 14. He could easily pass for a much younger dog. Yes, he tore his CCL, but that's a result of poor breeding and a MPL that set the stage for tibial crest rotation and tension on the CCL over his lifetime. A jump off the bed was the "event" that caused the catastrophic injury. The last straw, so to speak.

I can't change his genetics and I certainly can't change the hearts and minds of breeders who don't want to eliminate dogs from their lines that should not be bred (note that my other dog has at least 6 medical problems and 5 are genetic conditions, and that is VERY wrong). Despite this, I can decide how I will take care of my dogs to help offset the very core problems that they were born with. I want nothing more than a few more years with my senior dog, but know that I don't decide the day or the hour or the minute.

I wish you all the same enjoyment of many years with your yorkies. I would not change one thing with mine, including the decisions to neuter them.

Patellar luxation, CCL tears, and spaying--no firm conclusions on cause and effect.
 

To add to the conversation, I found this 2010 research article. The meatiest parts of the article are copied below. Parts of the article that I did not copy are represented by [...]. I bolded the parts that are related to spaying and/or Yorkshire Terriers, as well as the main conclusions. With respect to the effect of spaying on the development of luxating patella and CCL rupture, the authors note an increase in the rate of these two conditions in spayed dogs. HOWEVER, they do not draw any conclusions as to cause and effect. Clearly, more research is needed to determine if there is cause and effect, and if so, what the underlying mechanism is.

Severity of patellar luxation and frequency of concomitant cranial cruciate ligament rupture in dogs: 162 cases (2004–2007). Courtney A. Campbell, dvm; Christopher L. Horstman, dvm, ms, dacvs; David R. Mason, bvetmed, dacvs; Richard B. Evans, phd. AVMA, Vol 236, No. 8, April 15, 2010.

Summary:

Objective—To evaluate severity of medial patellar luxation (MPL) and frequency of con- comitant cranial cruciate ligament rupture (CCLR) in dogs.

Design—Retrospective case series.

Animals—162 dogs (266 stifle joints).

Procedures—Medical records of 162 small-breed dogs with MPL were reviewed. Signalment, body weight, luxation grade, bilateral or unilateral MPL, CCLR, and difference in luxation grades between stifle joints were evaluated. Association between severity of MPL and CCLR was investigated.

Results—58 dogs had unilateral MPL, and 104 dogs had bilateral MPL. Dogs ranged from 8.4 months to 16.7 years of age (mean, 5.7 years), and mean body weight was 5.45 kg (12 lb). Forty-one percent of all dogs had concomitant CCLR. Mean age for dogs with MPL alone was 3.0 years, which differed significantly from mean age of dogs with MPL and concomitant CCLR (7.8 years). Dogs with grade IV MPL were significantly more likely to have concomitant CCLR than were dogs with any other grade of MPL. In dogs with bilateral MPL and unilateral CCLR, there was a significantly higher grade of luxation in the stifle joint with CCLR.

Conclusions and Clinical Relevance—Small-breed dogs with MPL and concomitant CCLR were older than were dogs with only MPL. Dogs with grade IV MPL were more likely to have CCLR than were dogs with other grades of MPL. Most dogs with concomitant CCLR had a higher MPL grade in the affected stifle joint than in the intact joint. These findings should be beneficial in client education and clinical diagnosis. (J Am Vet Med Assoc 2010;236:887–891)

Introduction

Medial patellar luxation is one of the most common conditions affecting the stifle joint in dogs.1–4 Small-breed dogs are 12 times as likely to be affected by MPL as are large-breed dogs.5,6 Breed predilections have been reported for the Boston Terrier, Chihuahua, Pomeranian, Miniature Poodle, and Yorkshire Terrier.1,4,6 In these breeds as well as in others, luxation of the patella is primarily a developmental condition, with traumatic luxation being less common.3,7 A low-grade MPL may not result in clinical signs and frequently is an incidental finding during physical examination.3,7

Similarly, CCLR is a common disease affecting the stifle joint in dogs.3,7–9 Cruciate ligament disease has been recognized in both large- and small-breed dogs, with dogs of the Miniature Poodle, Lhasa Apso, Maltese, and Pomeranian breeds being the most frequently affected small-breed dogs.3,7,9

Definitive causes for MPL and CCLR have not been elucidated; however, it has been suggested that they have different causes.1–3,5 Classically, skeletal abnormalities associated with MPL are a shallow trochlear sulcus and medial displacement of the tibial tuberosity.2,3,5 Other skeletal abnormalities suggested to contribute to this condition are genu varum, hypoplasia of the medial femoral condyle, medial bowing of the proximal portion of the tibia, coxa vara, and internal rotation of the pes.3,7,8,10 Many causes of CCLR have been investigated, and common etiopathogeneses include trauma, age-associated degeneration of the ligament, immune- mediated disease, conformational abnormalities, and processes associated with breed, sex, and tibial plateau angle.3,7,8

Patients with bilateral MPL may have clinical signs in a chronic or intermittent manner or may be com- pletely devoid of clinical signs of the condition.3,7,11 When a dog with chronic MPL develops an acute hind limb lameness, concomitant CCLR should be considered.3,7 The suggested pathogenesis for dogs with MPL that develop concomitant CCLR is an increase in strain on the ligament as a result of anatomic abnormalities associated with MPL.3,7,12 Conversely, investigators have hypothesized that dogs with CCLR with no previous history of an MPL may acquire an MPL as a result of the increased internal rotation of the tibia once the cranial cruciate ligament has ruptured.3,12

To our knowledge, there are no published studies confirming an association between the grade of MPL and frequency of CCLR in small-breed dogs. The objective of the study reported here was to determine whether there was a relationship between the grade of MPL and frequency of CCLR in a population of dogs. We hypothesized that dogs with an increase in the grade of MPL would be more likely to have a concomitant CCLR and that the grade of MPL would be greater in the stifle joint with the concomitant CCLR.

[...]

Discussion

The most common breeds affected with MPL in the study reported here were the Chihuahua and Yorkshire Terrier, which corroborates results of a report14 in which there was overrepresentation of Chihuahuas. In another study,4 the Miniature Poodle was the breed most commonly affected. This finding may be explained by the hospital population evaluated in our study.

The sex distribution for patellar luxation in the present study was a male-to-female ratio of 1:1.3, which is consistent with the ratio of 1:1.5 in small-breed dogs reported in other studies4,7,14 but is in contrast to the sex distribution (male-to-female ratio, 1.8:1) reported in large-breed dogs.4,15 In the present study, spayed or neutered dogs were more likely to have MPL. These findings are in agreement with those of another report16 in which investigators detected a higher incidence of patellar luxation in spayed females.16 The findings of the present study may be attributable to our study population, an increase in spaying and neutering, or a true increase in the prevalence of MPL in dogs that have been spayed or neutered. We believe that our study population is representative of that at most referral institutions because there is a great number of similarities between our study population and the study populations in other investigations.

In the study reported here, we hypothesized that higher grades of MPL would be associated with an increase in the frequency of concomitant CCLR. We found that dogs with grade IV MPL were significantly (P = 0.02) more likely to have concomitant CCLR than were dogs with all other grades of luxation.

[...]

To our knowledge, there have been no reports of the small-breed dogs most commonly affected or the sex of dogs with MPL and concomitant CCLR. In the study reported here, the Yorkshire Terrier and spayed female dogs were slightly overrepresented. The study revealed a significant association between age and concomitant CCLR. Mean age at which dogs with concomitant CCLR were identified (7.8 years) was significantly higher than the mean age of dogs in which MPL alone was identified (3.0 years). This is consistent with results of studies3,4 in which middle-aged to older dogs with patellar luxation appeared to be at an increased risk of developing CCLR. The overall incidence of MPL with concomitant CCLR of 25% in the study reported here was higher than that in other reports4,15,24,25; however, those studies did not have strict exclusionary criteria with regard to breed.

[...]

In conclusion, middle-aged to older dogs and dogs with grade IV MPL were at an increased risk for developing CCLR. Dogs with bilateral patellar luxation and concomitant unilateral CCLR were more likely to have a higher score for grade of luxation in the cranial cruciate ligament–deficient stifle joint. Studies are warranted to evaluate the reproducibility of the results reported here, in addition to results for follow-up monitoring, radiography, physical examination findings, and other factors that influence MPL and concomitant CCLR.

I agree, but my take on how this thread progressed is different. I do not believe it is anyone's intention to attack or not allow different positions.

My take is that some participating in this thread think some of the discussion is interfering with the presentation of science. Gail's first post includes her own conclusions about spay/neuter. The research being posted also includes conclusions that go beyond strict data.

I would not make a decision to neuter based solely on a set of statistics, same as I would not make the decision to neuter just because I was told to do it or not do it. That is why I think the discussion should include more.

Science doesn't exist in a vacuum. The health impact of spay/neuter goes beyond what we can find in blood tests and xrays. The 'human convenience' factor, for instance, impacts the health of the pet immeasurably by contributing to the likeliness of a happy life. The articles posted discuss this.

I know why Brit did it, but it made zero sense to me. Why is it that if people voice opposing opinions, there are those who feel the need to protect others? The problem I had was the analogy....I don't go around on YT telling people to alter their pets.

My position is that this discussion is not fact based; therefore it concerns me greatly in terms of what the overall good is for people who come to YT for information about altering their yorkies.

Exactly. And yes Wylie's Mom, you posted what I was thinking as well.

I'm glad you all think athletic Yorkies is some kind of a joke. God forbid you keep a Yorkie in shape. I'm glad you're happy with couch potatoes. But I was actually referring to dogs in general. I didn't know that wasn't allowed anymore on YT, simply because it's a yorkie based forum? All I meant was there is a world out there, of dog sports, where these dogs are trained as athletes. Keeping them intact is often beneficial for these dogs. All I meant by that.

I made a pretty simple straight to the point post and stated my dogs will always be fixed, and that I don't think there's enough pros/cons on either side to really care all that much. And I do agree the general dog owning population should have fixed dogs. There's nothing wrong with discussions on a forum, however. I did not know we had to be so careful what we say in case non-members read our threads. In that case, what's the point in even discussing anything anymore? Anyone can Google and find an answer their happy with.

Fwiw, 83% of 83.3 million dogs have been surgically altered to have their reproductive organs removed in the US. That is 69 million spayed and neutered dogs. I'd say a majority of the US has altered dogs so I'm really not overly concerned with responsible breeders and responsible owners having a choice as to whether they went their dogs reproductive organs removed. And for the losers who just let their dogs roam free, impregnate whatever dog they see, and have the thousands of puppies per year that wind up in shelters? Well, they're idiots. Maybe eventually they'll learn, but maybe not.

Ladyjane, I'm not sure why the long post SHEESHing me... I was making a generic statement to the whole thread. I read all your posts clearly, and wasn't really addressing them, simply stating... well read Wylie's Mom's post, I'm tired of typing... lol..

I see now that I was glossing over the parts about motive and bias. We all have a bias and wouldn't be human without it.

The talk of motives I did not interpret as a personal attack. I'm at a loss how to explain how I view it.

Your analogy made zero sense to me. Besides, why would you be bothered by others stating their opinions? You of all people? Your post indicated that they should not be doing it unless they "attacked" me as well. ?????

I agree that not all of the discussion is fact-based, and the title of this thread including the phrase "If ever" is unfortunate, since the "if ever" part is more a concern for some large breed dogs than for Yorkshire Terriers. For my part, I'm trying to keep my contributions as fact-based as possible. I found an excellent article on pros and cons of pediatric neutering (neutering dogs younger than 4 months of age) that I'm waiting to present when I have more time. It has a table that provides numerical scores to the risks and benefits so that the vet and owner can make a responsible decision as to when to neuter. For instance, the benefits of preventing mammary tumors and pyometra FAR outweigh the risk of obesity and CCL rupture in spayed females. However, the younger the dog, the greater the risk of spay incontinence (lack of bladder control), so it's best to spay the dog as late as possible before the first heat. Definitely the kind of discussion worth having.