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-   General Yorkshire Terrier Discussion (https://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/general-yorkshire-terrier-discussion/)
-   -   Spay and Neuter: When and If ever? (https://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/general-yorkshire-terrier-discussion/234713-spay-neuter-when-if-ever.html)

pstinard 06-19-2014 09:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 107barney (Post 4452473)
This article says nothing about of diagnosis of MPL vs. time of spay. Most yorkies are diagnosed w/ MPLs earlier than their spays. Mine was 8 weeks old and dx'd with bilateral Grade IVs, was spayed at 16 weeks old, is 14 now and never suffered a CCLR although there is a question of a soft tissue vs. partial tear in the leg not previously surgically repaired.
You are correct, the current studies are very limited. That's why more research is needed. For all we know, the association between spaying and MPL/CCL issues could very well be due to people who spay their dogs being more conscientious about their dog's veterinary care and catching these types of issues that might otherwise not be diagnosed in dogs that receive less frequent veterinary care. In other words, you're being a very good mother to your dogs and getting them the care they need :).

Maximo 06-19-2014 09:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Britster (Post 4452465)
Lol okay... If you say so. Clearly we are not understanding each other.
I'm butting in . . . I come in peace:

Brit, re-reading your post, it does say Linda's views are shaped by her work in rescue. By suggesting she go hang around sporting dogs, you are assuming she doesn't have knowledge of that world. Linda posted about her view that these health problems are the result of bad breeding/breeders, and not spaying/neutering. That was her emphasis. Edit: not advocating for spay/neuter.

So this isn't a breeder vs rescue motive thing.

Lovetodream88 06-19-2014 09:43 AM
I know that 4 years ago when Callie went to the orthopedic surgeon and he said her ACL was tearing and the cause was her LP and that he never asked what age she was spayed and he prides himself on keeping up with the research. When we went back this time and were trying to figure out the best time to do the surgery and again he said the LP could cause the ACL to tear. Never once did he suggest the age she was spayed had anything to do with the ACL and tearing. I am so much more likely to trust my specialist then parts of a study we don't know the info on the dogs from. I feel if there was research that was important my specialist would have read it and told us early spaying was the reason. Callie came from a puppy mill there is no doubt in my mind her poor genetics are what caused her to have LP and the LP led to the tearing of the ACL not because she was spayed before a year.

pstinard 06-19-2014 10:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovetodream88 (Post 4452490)
I know that 4 years ago when Callie went to the orthopedic surgeon and he said her ACL was tearing and the cause was her LP and that he never asked what age she was spayed and he prides himself on keeping up with the research. When we went back this time and were trying to figure out the best time to do the surgery and again he said the LP could cause the ACL to tear. Never once did he suggest the age she was spayed had anything to do with the ACL and tearing. I am so much more likely to trust my specialist then parts of a study we don't know the info on the dogs from. I feel if there was research that was important my specialist would have read it and told us early spaying was the reason. Callie came from a puppy mill there is no doubt in my mind her poor genetics are what caused her to have LP and the LP led to the tearing of the ACL not because she was spayed before a year.
The reason your vet wouldn't mention it is because cause and effect has not been proven. I cited two studies, one of which had 46% small breed dogs, and the second of which was all small breed dogs, with Yorkshire Terriers heavily represented. The association between spaying and MPL/CCL problems was small, but statistically significant. Cause and effect was not implied at all, and one of the possible reasons given for the association is that spayed dogs might (in general) receive better veterinary care, resulting in the the diagnosis of MPL/CCL issues that would otherwise go undiagnosed in unspayed animals receiving less frequent veterinary care. Direct cause and effect have not been proven, and that is why no specialist would mention it at all, unless they were actively involved in this type of research and collecting data for their studies.

Britster 06-19-2014 10:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximo (Post 4452488)
I'm butting in . . . I come in peace:

Brit, re-reading your post, it does say Linda's views are shaped by her work in rescue. By suggesting she go hang around sporting dogs, you are assuming she doesn't have knowledge of that world. Linda posted about her view that these health problems are the result of bad breeding/breeders, and not spaying/neutering. That was her emphasis. Edit: not advocating for spay/neuter.

So this isn't a breeder vs rescue motive thing.

Lol this makes sense... And clearly we, or maybe I, just had a misunderstanding.

My main point stands there. I honestly didn't put a ton of thought into this and didn't have a desire to sit and nit pick all the posts. I'm on vacation and posting from my phone in an RV. So I'm out.

I don't care either way what people do with their dogs as long as they aren't abusive and live in a good home. The end.

Lovetodream88 06-19-2014 10:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pstinard (Post 4452500)
The reason your vet wouldn't mention it is because cause and effect has not been proven. I cited two studies, one of which had 46% small breed dogs, and the second of which was all small breed dogs, with Yorkshire Terriers heavily represented. The association between spaying and MPL/CCL problems was small, but statistically significant. Cause and effect was not implied at all, and one of the possible reasons given for the association is that spayed dogs might (in general) receive better veterinary care, resulting in the the diagnosis of MPL/CCL issues that would otherwise go undiagnosed in unspayed animals receiving less frequent veterinary care. Direct cause and effect have not been proven, and that is why no specialist would mention it at all, unless they were actively involved in this type of research and collecting data for their studies.
If there was significant evidence then vets and actual orthopedic specialist would be using the information. There were issues with the study big issues in my opinion.

Lovetodream88 06-19-2014 10:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Britster (Post 4452501)
Lol this makes sense... And clearly we, or maybe I, just had a misunderstanding.

My main point stands there. I honestly didn't put a ton of thought into this and didn't have a desire to sit and nit pick all the posts. I'm on vacation and posting from my phone in an RV. So I'm out.

I don't care either way what people do with their dogs as long as they aren't abusive and live in a good home. The end.
What is your definition of abuse?

gemy 06-19-2014 10:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gemy (Post 4449452)
A retrospective cohort study published in Feb 1 2014 of Journal of the American Veterinary Association.

The link provided is an article by Dr Becker, who with-in the article provides the link to the actual study.

In line with the GR and Rottweiler studies, more confirmation of the health risks to spayed/neutered animals.

I leave it to the readers to look up the study.

Will Spaying/Neutering Increase Your Dog's Risk of Cancer?

Here is the link directly to the Viszlas study.

http://mercola.fileburst.com/PDF/Hea...izslaStudy.pdf


On the subject of mammary tumours here is one extract. If you click the link the full 12 page or so report is available to any reader.

The association between gonadectomy and various

neoplasms in dogs has been examined in several
studies.15–20 Mammary gland cancer is an important



condition in female dogs, with approximately 20% to
50% of the tumors being histologically malignant.33,34



It is commonly believed that gonadectomized female

dogs have a reduced risk of mammary gland cancer and

that the earlier a dog is gonadectomized, the lower the
risk.28,29,34,35 However, authors of a recent systematic review36



of all reports in peer-reviewed journals on the

associations among neutering, age at neutering, and

mammary gland tumors concluded that the evidence

that neutering reduces the risk of mammary gland neoplasia

is weak and not a sound basis for firm recommendations

on neutering because of limited evidence

and bias in published results.

I would try to copy and paste this report but right now my p.c. is telling me my disc is full:confused:

The above finding on Viszlas and no apparent association on age of spaying and relationship to mammary cancer is surprising to me. Most previous research I have read is for slight iincrease in incidence rate associated with spaying before first heat, spaying after first but prior second heat, but a minimal increate in risk/incident rate. How ever a sharp increase in unbred older intact females.

This study I need to look at more to see about pyrometra, which is imo, much more of a concern than mammary cancer is. Of course these two conditions affect predominately female dogs, or solely female dogs. And most studies indicate that pyrometra is rare in young females.

And as the study authors have said much more research is needed to be done not just for Viszlas but for all breeds.

It could very well be that there is a breed disposition to mammary cancer, as there seems to be for sarcomas, hemangiosarcomas, Von Willenbrands disease (which thankfully now there is a genetic test for). If you look at the report on cancers male/females you do not see mammary cancer delineated, and was included in the other types of cancer Mammary cancer was lumped in with all other cancers.

Other cancers including mammary and most specifically by breed type are only suspected, some breeds with strong suspicion that there is not only a breed disposition to, but an association with timing of s/n. So the first question to be answered by science is there a breed disposition to cancer? If so, what kinds and by what breed? Then what causes this breed disposition? Is it truly genetic? Some combo of genetics, nutrition, environment etc. Are all breeds or only certain breeds made more or less susceptible by judicious timing of a full s/n? Would it be better to use alternative methods of s/n to keep the sex hormones? For males, for females, for which breed types?

And having asked all the above questions, which will be decades in the answering, all we as breeders can go by is the best information at the time we need to make the decisions and or recommendations to our puppy owners. And all you can do as pet owners is to educate yourself as well for the breed (s) you own.

Some breeds are further ahead in answering these questions then others. Some answers perhaps mammary tumour and pyrometra is consistent across all or most breed types or sizes.

I await reading and posting new research and findings on this topic.



















pstinard 06-19-2014 10:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovetodream88 (Post 4452503)
If there was significant evidence then vets and actual orthopedic specialist would be using the information. There were issues with the study big issues in my opinion.
That's where the problem lies. There are not "big issues" with the studies. The studies were conducted to the best of the researchers' abilities, and they were peer reviewed and published in major journals. The researchers were very careful to state that they had not proven cause and effect. The big issues come from people drawing conclusions that are beyond the scope of the studies. More research is needed, and the authors state that.

pstinard 06-19-2014 10:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gemy (Post 4452512)
Here is the link directly to the Viszlas study.

http://mercola.fileburst.com/PDF/Hea...izslaStudy.pdf


On the subject of mammary tumours here is one extract. If you click the link the full 12 page or so report is available to any reader.

The association between gonadectomy and various

neoplasms in dogs has been examined in several
studies.15–20 Mammary gland cancer is an important



condition in female dogs, with approximately 20% to
50% of the tumors being histologically malignant.33,34



It is commonly believed that gonadectomized female

dogs have a reduced risk of mammary gland cancer and

that the earlier a dog is gonadectomized, the lower the
risk.28,29,34,35 However, authors of a recent systematic review36



of all reports in peer-reviewed journals on the

associations among neutering, age at neutering, and

mammary gland tumors concluded that the evidence

that neutering reduces the risk of mammary gland neoplasia

is weak and not a sound basis for firm recommendations

on neutering because of limited evidence

and bias in published results.

I would try to copy and paste this report but right now my p.c. is telling me my disc is full:confused:

The above finding on Viszlas and no apparent association on age of spaying and relationship to mammary cancer is surprising to me. Most previous research I have read is for slight iincrease in incidence rate associated with spaying before first heat, spaying after first but prior second heat, but a minimal increate in risk/incident rate. How ever a sharp increase in unbred older intact females.

This study I need to look at more to see about pyrometra, which is imo, much more of a concern than mammary cancer is. Of course these two conditions affect predominately female dogs, or solely female dogs. And most studies indicate that pyrometra is rare in young females.

And as the study authors have said much more research is needed to be done not just for Viszlas but for all breeds.

It could very well be that there is a breed disposition to mammary cancer, as there seems to be for sarcomas, hemangiosarcomas, Von Willenbrands disease (which thankfully now there is a genetic test for). If you look at the report on cancers male/females you do not see mammary cancer delineated, and was included in the other types of cancer Mammary cancer was lumped in with all other cancers.

Other cancers including mammary and most specifically by breed type are only suspected, some breeds with strong suspicion that there is not only a breed disposition to, but an association with timing of s/n. So the first question to be answered by science is there a breed disposition to cancer? If so, what kinds and by what breed? Then what causes this breed disposition? Is it truly genetic? Some combo of genetics, nutrition, environment etc. Are all breeds or only certain breeds made more or less susceptible by judicious timing of a full s/n? Would it be better to use alternative methods of s/n to keep the sex hormones? For males, for females, for which breed types?

And having asked all the above questions, which will be decades in the answering, all we as breeders can go by is the best information at the time we need to make the decisions and or recommendations to our puppy owners. And all you can do as pet owners is to educate yourself as well for the breed (s) you own.

Some breeds are further ahead in answering these questions then others. Some answers perhaps mammary tumour and pyrometra is consistent across all or most breed types or sizes.

I await reading and posting new research and findings on this topic.
I think that these results could very well be breed-specific, and also related to the types of cancer under discussion. Here is a quote from the article "Pros, Cons, and Techniques of Pediatric Neutering," by Margaret V. Root Kustritz (Vet Clin Small Anim 44 (2014) 221–233), also a 2014 article:

"Mammary neoplasia

For female dogs and cats, the greatest benefits are decreased risk of development of mammary neoplasia when aged and lack of development of pyometra. Incidence of mammary neoplasia in cats is 2.5% and is virtually always malignant adenocarci- noma.22–24 Mammary neoplasia is 7 times more likely to occur in aged queens than in spayed female cats, with the greatest decrease in incidence associated with spaying before the first estrus.24 Incidence of mammary neoplasia in dogs is 3.4%, with about 50% being benign fibroadenomas and 50% malignant adenocarcinomas.22,25–32 Incidence is greatly decreased by spaying, especially by spaying before the first heat.1,33,34 A recent attempt to determine the significance of these data by systematic review of the veterinary literature was unable to identify strong evidence suggesting that spaying decreases the risk of mammary cancer; however, this systematic review is based on work in human medicine and requires a massive body of literature, which does not exist in veterinary medicine.35"

pstinard 06-19-2014 10:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gemy (Post 4452512)
Here is the link directly to the Viszlas study.

http://mercola.fileburst.com/PDF/Hea...izslaStudy.pdf


However, authors of a recent systematic review36

of all reports in peer-reviewed journals on the

associations among neutering, age at neutering, and

mammary gland tumors concluded that the evidence

that neutering reduces the risk of mammary gland neoplasia

is weak and not a sound basis for firm recommendations

on neutering because of limited evidence

and bias in published results.
AHA!!!! The systematic review mentioned in the Viszlas study stating that risk of mammary cancer shouldn't be a concern in making decisions about spaying is the same review mentioned in the study that I just quoted in my last post:

"A recent attempt to determine the significance of these data by systematic review of the veterinary literature was unable to identify strong evidence suggesting that spaying decreases the risk of mammary cancer; however, this systematic review is based on work in human medicine and requires a massive body of literature, which does not exist in veterinary medicine.35"

So there is a difference of opinion on the validity of that systematic review...

megansmomma 06-19-2014 10:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pstinard (Post 4452520)
I think that these results could very well be breed-specific, and also related to the types of cancer under discussion. Here is a quote from the article "Pros, Cons, and Techniques of Pediatric Neutering," by Margaret V. Root Kustritz (Vet Clin Small Anim 44 (2014) 221–233), also a 2014 article:

"Mammary neoplasia

For female dogs and cats, the greatest benefits are decreased risk of development of mammary neoplasia when aged and lack of development of pyometra. Incidence of mammary neoplasia in cats is 2.5% and is virtually always malignant adenocarci- noma.22–24 Mammary neoplasia is 7 times more likely to occur in aged queens than in spayed female cats, with the greatest decrease in incidence associated with spaying before the first estrus.24 Incidence of mammary neoplasia in dogs is 3.4%, with about 50% being benign fibroadenomas and 50% malignant adenocarcinomas.22,25–32 Incidence is greatly decreased by spaying, especially by spaying before the first heat.1,33,34 A recent attempt to determine the significance of these data by systematic review of the veterinary literature was unable to identify strong evidence suggesting that spaying decreases the risk of mammary cancer; however, this systematic review is based on work in human medicine and requires a massive body of literature, which does not exist in veterinary medicine.35"
MERCOLA= FDA

He's got his own agenda along with Dr. Becker. The entire Mercola website is a is noting but a profit making mega machine.

megansmomma 06-19-2014 10:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pstinard (Post 4452527)
AHA!!!! The systematic review mentioned in the Viszlas study stating that risk of mammary cancer shouldn't be a concern in making decisions about spaying is the same review mentioned in the study that I just quoted in my last post:

"A recent attempt to determine the significance of these data by systematic review of the veterinary literature was unable to identify strong evidence suggesting that spaying decreases the risk of mammary cancer; however, this systematic review is based on work in human medicine and requires a massive body of literature, which does not exist in veterinary medicine.35"

So there is a difference of opinion on the validity of that systematic review...
Again Mercola claimed to have a light beam to detect breast cancer. He's a danger and menace to human medicine with his unproven theories. Not long ago, a woman who was in advanced stages of breast cancer was one of my surgeons patients. While she was laying on the OR table asleep he looked at me and said... This woman didnt need to be this advanced and will most likely die because she falled an unproven homeopathic treatment. If she just would have listened to us 18 months ago. It was very quiet after that. Mercola....

megansmomma 06-19-2014 10:53 AM
This We Don't Have a Cure for Cancer Yet - or Do We?

megansmomma 06-19-2014 10:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by megansmomma (Post 4452541)
Also Dr. Oz.....where was he the other day? Testifying about his claims. Dr. Mercola's Most Radical Alternative Cures | The Dr. Oz Show


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