Thanks for clarifying, Gemy.


For me, I can't abide all of the spins put on the interpretation of this study to suit the individual 'spinners' and the emotion makes me want to run far away.


I do not feel inclined to educate individuals re: how to interpret research results and how to not get freaked out by results which are almost meaningless in isolation. The latter part is definitely not within my social skill set which, admittedly, is severely lacking.


But, thanks for what was a potentially interesting thread!

:thumbup:

Agree. I've found when looking at studies and data it's best to try to remove emotion from what you're interpreting. Only then can one look at things objectively and make an unbiased decision imo. Good Morning!

Real, scientific facts as they are, I will continue to s/n yorkies that come to me intact at six months .. of course that is for puppies which I don't always have. :) I will also advocate for it whether you all think it is emotional or whatever you think.

I have seen what I believe are personal agendas (Heaven only knows what they are, but I believe they are) all over the place on this thread....and in my mind it is not what I believe is in the best interest of this breed that has clearly been almost destroyed by bad breeding. Call in unscientific as you may...emotional as you may. I call it responsible. :)

And...finally I must say that the question of "when" is very well answered in real research; but for some reason I feel that is being ignored here.

If spaying a female yorkie before the first heat leaves an almost zero chance of mammary tumors and pyometra is astounds me that anyone would still be questioning it. Until research shows something that is MORE harmful than that due to spaying before 6 months I would hope that others would be a bit more judicious in where to discuss this. Of course I know that probably isn't going to happen, but I can always suggest it.

Now, I will leave the thread for you all to answer this because I know you want it to end up as you wish it to be.....BUT I implore you to do some reading about pyometra and mammary tumors...and do take a look at the video I posted and ask yourself if you would want to put your beloved pet through that. It always amazes me that people can ignore things with dogs that I know full well they would think twice about putting their own bodies through.

Emotional? Darn straight...makes me sick to my stomach. I have seen it over and over and over through the years....the suffering of defenseless tiny beings because people did the things they did for whatever reason ... that surely was not in the best interest of that poor baby.

I believe Phil did that. :)

If you really want to see agendas take a look at the old Parti VS Standard Yorkie threads. :rolleyes: There was plenty of studies in genetics involved in those very heated discussions. When I say this thread is mild you have no idea.

Phil is great!

*shudders* Those threads that shan't be named. Makes me want to curl up in a fetal position and rock myself to sleep

Hiya,


Your agenda, I understand perfectly and it's admirable. x Yes, it's emotional and that's to be expected. Perhaps I should have said that I don't like when things get PERSONAL.


I don't know if there is an agenda other than information, education and interesting discourse on a forum full of YT lovers. If there is anything more than that, I certainly don't know about it and wouldn't have participated on this thread (or any other) if it was made to incite people.


I don't like confrontation. I like freedom of speech, information and a talk which ends up in everyone learning something from each other!


If things become anything more than that - well, I'm emotionally unequipped and too low on time!

Another Study not new news 2003 first publish date
 

Immunohistochemical characterization of canine prostatic carcinoma and correlation with castration status and castration time - Sorenmo - 2003 - Veterinary and Comparative Oncology - Wiley Online Library




Veterinary and Comparative Oncology, March, 2003. 10.1046/j.1476-5829.2003.00007.x
Immunohistochemical characterization of canine prostatic carcinoma and correlation with castration status and castration time

K. U. Sorenmo, M. Goldschmidt, F. Shofer, C. Goldkamp, J. Ferracone
Abstract

The purpose of this study was to characterize canine prostate cancer using immunohistochemical staining specific for acinar and urothelial/ductal tissue and correlate these results with the dogs' castration status/castration time. Seventy dogs with prostate cancer were included, 71% were castrated and 29% were intact. Compared with an age-matched control population, castrated dogs were at increased risk of prostate cancer, odds ratio 3.9. Immunohistochemical staining was performed on 58 cases. Forty-six of the 58 stained positive for cytokeratin 7 (CK 7) (ductal/urothelial origin) and one of the 58 stained positive for prostate-specific antigen. Dogs with CK 7-positive tumours were younger when castrated than dogs with CK 7-negative tumours, 2 versus 7 years (P = 0.03); dogs castrated at ≤2 years of age were more likely to be CK 7-positive (P = 0.009). These results show that most canine prostatic carcinomas are of ductal/urothelial, androgen-independent origin. This is consistent with the epidemiological findings, showing increased risk in castrated dogs. Canine prostate cancer may, therefore, not be a realistic model for the human disease.
Figures

No figures found.

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/dat...ABAAEAAAIBRAA7 Figure 1 | Immunohistochemistry, validation of staining specificity. (A) Normal control prostate in an intact male dog: strong positive staining with prostate-specific antigen (PSA) in acinar tissue, ×300; (B) normal prostate of neonatal dog (21 days): negative staining with PSA, ×150; (C) normal prostate in a mature castrated dog: strong positive staining with cytokeratin 7 (CK 7) in prostatic ducts, ×300; (D) normal prostate: strong positive staining of prostatic ducts with CK 7, no staining of acinar tissue, ×300; (E) normal prostate of neonatal dog (21 days): strong positive staining of prostatic ducts with CK 7, ×150; (F) normal bladder epithelium: strong positive staining with CK 7, ×300

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/dat...ABAAEAAAIBRAA7 Figure 2 | Immunohistochemistry, canine prostatic carcinoma. (A) Strong positive staining with cytokeratin 7 (CK 7) in a male castrated dog, ×300; (B) weak multifocal staining with prostate-specific antigen (PSA) in an intact male dog, ×300; (C) negative staining with CK 7 in an intact male dog, ×300.



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My Notes

Only 70 dogs in the study, mostly larger breeds. Here is the concluding paragraph of the study:

"Despite the fact that early castration may not protect against prostate cancer, there may be other advantages associated with castration such as behaviour modification and prevention of other diseases of the prostate and testes (Krawiec, 1989; Krawiec & Heflin, 1992; Neilson et al., 1997). In addition, castration is also advocated in the US as a means to control the pet population (Olson & Moulton, 1993; Stubbs & Bloomberg, 1995; Howe, 1997). Nevertheless, the results from this study clarify the discrepancies regarding canine prostate cancer and its hormonal association. Further studies are warranted to study the mechanisms involved in the possible protective effects of testicular hormones against prostate cancer development in dogs."

Here is the info on the breeds in this study:

"Information regarding signalment and clinical data was available on 70 dogs, 35 from the biopsy population and 35 from the necropsy population. The median age was 10 years (range 5–18.5 years). Twenty-eight dogs were mixed breeds: seven German shepherds, five Labrador retrievers, four German shorthair pointers and several other pure breeds were represented with one to two cases each. Most dogs with prostate cancer in both the biopsy as well as the necropsy population were castrated, with 49 (70%) being castrated and 21 (30%) being intact. The median age of castration was 2 years (range 2–14 years). Information regarding castration age was missing in five cases. Compared with the neuter status in a control population of frequency age-matched dogs with other tumours (39% castrated versus 61% intact), it was found that there was an increased risk of prostate carcinoma in castrated dogs: OR = 3.9, P < 0.0001, 95% CI = 2.3 to 6.8."

This part has me scratching my head:

Compared with the neuter status in a control population of frequency age-matched dogs with other tumours (39% castrated versus 61% intact), it was found that there was an increased risk of prostate carcinoma in castrated dogs: OR = 3.9, P < 0.0001, 95% CI = 2.3 to 6.8.

Are they saying that overall, there is a higher percentage of other classes of tumors in intact dogs than in castrated dogs?

Dang it did I get the full free article? And you are right a very small sample size - but does the Study clarify the discrepancies between....?


Lets not yet go there for behavioural stuff - many more recent studies challenge this thought to be of benefit....


Damn it all we have loads of on line medical records from hospitals all across USA and Canada - can't we somehow do a huge database scientific study? Do it right do it once - gawd stats available on 500,000 dogs or so?? I salivate.


I think one of the most dangerous ideas out there is that s+n is going to improve a poor temperament dog. Certainly in my breed it is very dangerous to believe this. As if castrating a dog is going to deal with your failure to train properly!! And or the fact that your dog has some serious issues.

Shoot I don't know - I know for some specific cancers like hemangiosarcomas it is off the charts for GR's in S+N dogs and where did they ever get stats on 61% intact dogs here in North America? Also osteosarcomas of castrated dogs across most large breeds are of a big concern. Next concern osteopaedic conditions. Generally speaking worse for the males than females - as at least the females have some off-setting benefits ie pyrometra and breast tumours (again for many breeds of dogs but not all)


Are they quoting /referring to some other research that can be looked up?

No, the study doesn't clarify the discrepancies between rates of various types of tumors associated with castrated vs. intact dogs. This study mainly shows that higher testosterone levels aren't associated with prostate cancers in dogs as they are in humans. The cause of prostate cancer in dogs seems to be different from the cause in humans. I will send you the full article as a PDF :).

I'm not a behaviorist, so don't worry, I won't go there :D.

I think they are referring to data that are internal to their study, since they don't give a source for the 39% castrated vs. 61% intact dog distribution among the class of other types of tumors. I just sent you the PDF, so maybe you can tease that information out of the paper. They also have references for *cough* behavioral *cough* issues of castrated vs. intact dogs :devils2:.

LOL LOL on the *cough* cough* Will read it tonight after work. Tis Tax Season you know!

ZoE's vet is all about educating, and routinely shares issues he comes across with his patients.

This is a uterine horn, from a medium size dog, that was suffering from pyometra. The dog almost died. ZoE's vet performed immediate, emergency surgery and saved her, but shared the results and said this is why you should spay your pet.

Here's the uterine horn:

(I'm on my ipad so can only post one pic at a time.)

That dog clearly had to have suffered badly.

This is what a uterine horn should look like for a dog that size.

Here is a review article on benefits and risks of spaying and neutering written by Brennen McKenzie, the Skeptvet:

http://www.carodog.eu/wp-content/upl...PAV045web2.pdf

I'm pretty sure that this article is NOT behind a paywall. It appeared in a peer-reviewed journal (CABI Reviews), and here is the article's abstract (emphasis mine):

Neutering consists of removing the source of the hormones that control reproduction and determine secondary sexual characteristics. In dogs and cats, this is most commonly accomplished by castration or ovariectomy. While the primary purpose of neutering is to prevent reproduction, the procedure may have other physical and behavioural effects.

Epidemiologic research has identified many beneficial and harmful outcomes associated with neutering. A definitively causal relationship between these outcomes and neuter status cannot be accepted without consistent evidence from multiple studies of adequate size and quality. However, consideration of the possible health consequences of these associations is warranted when offering owners recommendations concerning neutering.

An evidence-based decision about neutering a particular pet requires integrating relevant research data with the veterinarian’s clinical expertise and the needs and circumstances of the patient and owner. It is impossible to precisely predict the outcome of neutering for any individual. However, existing research does allow some generalization about the magnitude and clinical importance of specific risks and benefits. Overall, it appears justified to recommend spaying all females not intended for breeding, because the procedure is more likely to prevent rather than cause disease. In male dogs, the benefits of castration are not so clearly greater than the risks. The evidence is also mixed regarding the risks and benefits of neutering dogs before 5–6 months of age, and so no strong recommendation for or against the practice can be made. However, it is clear that spaying female dogs before their first heat is preferable to spaying them later.

Cookie, my sweet 7 months old yorkie got spayed yesterday. I was told not to give her meds in an empty stomach coz it will cause her to vomit or nausea. She seem ok, I hope! She hasn't eaten since yesterday and just wants to be left alone. She likes to drink a lot of water, peed just 2x and went back to bed. What should I do if she still won't eat today. I'm worried she might get sick.

Her water drinking is a very good thing. If she hasn't been eating anything yet, you should call the vet for advice. Our Bella was also spayed at 7 months, and she was completely back to normal the day after her spay, as far as eating habits and energy level go.

Another article and another study
 

Thank you for the new article

Very interesting! It goes to show that you can't make a generalization for all breeds of dogs as to when and if to spay and neuter--each breed behaves differently. I hope that they collect and publish data on Yorkies!

Here is the direct link to the article:

PLOS ONE: Long-Term Health Effects of Neutering Dogs: Comparison of Labrador Retrievers with Golden Retrievers

Thanks Phil I would dearly love to get some yorkie research I don't understand with a very popular dog we don't have any yet.


The pendulum is starting to swing I think. And I hope that with all this research out there at some point we as dog owners will get a clearer answer. it kind of reminds me of the vaccination and vaccinosis question.


In terms of that research I would have hoped they would speak to pyrometra and mammary cancers in their summary of findings. As current and long term understanding is that these are two very important negatives with keeping a female intact.


Shrugs... oh well

From the above article
 

The most frequently mentioned advantage of early neutering of female dogs is protection against mammary cancer (MC) [12]. However, a recent meta-analysis of published studies on neutering females and MC found that the evidence linking neutering to a reduced risk of MC is weak [13].


And this is not the only study to find the evidence weak for Mammary Cancers....


I am left scratching my head on this. But of course we must remember there were no hall mark studies to show that in all cases for all breeds of dogs S+N is best done at 6months of age or so.

I just had this conversation with my vet. She told me that the studies have been about large breed dogs, but that it does make sense that spaying or neutering too young could have an adverse affect on the system. She said animals have sex hormones for a reason and not just for reproduction. She said if you think about it like a thyroid, this tiny thing affects soooo many things if something goes wrong. She also cited the studies that show the benefit of spaying and neutering. She suggested letting my puppy have at least one heat before spaying.