Are you done? Since you know so much about me...what's my sign? Lol j/k. Seriously though I get it, you're an advocate for s/n, you think everyone should do it, there is no grey area, you think everyone is going to breed and those who don't s/n are irresponsible. Science supports what you say, but it also supports that issues can arise from lack of hormones. You're blinding yourself from important data because you're failing to see both sides. Which in your case is fine because at the end of the day you're responsible for Callie's well being just as I'm responsible for my babies. Not everyone thinks the same way that you do and just because they don't do what you agree with doesn't mean they have ulterior motives :rolleyes:. No one in this thread has argued against s/n they've simply asked what are the positive/negatives. You love yorkies? So do I! And I don't have to agree with you to show it.

Pyometra and mammary tumors are definitely to be considered, but I have a question....what about with larger breeds that have issues with anesthesia? Would spaying them be worth it? This is one of the reasons why our bully hasn't been fixed yet.

As for the ceviche...do u want plantains with that? I also make a mean mangorita:D

Are the plantains fried and sweet, or prepared as mofongo? I'll take either :D. Unfortunately, health issues prevent me from drinking :(.

Here is a link to a PDF study that I posted much earlier in this thread. Tables 2 and 3 have cost/benefit analysis of spaying and neutering dogs. Enjoy!

http://www.tc.umn.edu/~rootk001/gonadectomy.pdf

I'm also an advocate for reputable breeding, animal abuse and so on. There has been nothing to prove the cons of spaying but when they do show up then we I guess will see if I'm letting it blind me. My aunt had a hysterectomy and refused to take the hormones and she did just fine. This thread is going to become a reason for certain people who probably shouldn't have dogs anyway to not spay. It's not safe and the risks are very very real. You would think lovers of this breed and or members of this board who see the opsie breeding all the time would get that it's important but it seems to just be going whoosh over people's heads. This is sad and it makes me very sick to my stomach.

Thanks Phil you are an angel. Gawd if only we had a World Health Cochrane like Institute to cull all the research done all over the world!


Offer independent un-biased review of the research and do a I think it is called meta data analysis..!!

I'm Jamaican with a Southern upbringing hun OF COURSE they're sweet and fried!:D. As for the rita it'd be virgin, too early for drinking so I got ya! Thanks for the info! Saving it to show the hubs!

I have not heard much about tubal ligation in dogs, but have seen mention lately of removing the ovaries.

LOVE plantains but you all can have the ceviche.

Cerviche aside (we don't do raw food here).. I am so glad you posted the interpretation of the study. So we have a study that confirms the risk of mammary tumors is greater in unspayed females including Yorkies AND we have real life stories like my friend with her $5,000 in cancer treatments. Her dog had uterine cancer.

There is simply no good reason to leave a pet unspayed.

Thank you and I hope that people think long and hard about these facts before encouraging people not to s/n.

You can have my share of the ceviche (if I have a share...lol) and just toss me a few extra slices of the plantains.

Dog Birth Control Options

For anyone that would be interested
:happyboun: I love when we can debate without anyone getting in a tizzy :beermug: for everyone! Except you Phil you get :cup::)

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: Well, that's what I think, anyway. BTW, I'll take your ceviche. I don't raw feed Bella, but I do raw feed myself :D.

Then Taylor you have not been reading the research, for certain breeds of dogs, there are very serious risks associated with spaying and neutering at or even earlier than 6 months old. For the Yorkshire Terrier other than one or two studies pointing towards hypothyroidism as an increased risk in s+n males n females, and of course spay incontinence, and one tantalizing research paper that looks at the hormonal impact on proper maturation of ligamentous structures - like the ACL, for female Yorkies at this point in time most pet females IMO should be spayed for their overall health - the key is when? Can we wait a little for growth plate closure and ligamentous tissue maturation? Would that help in the incidence rate of LP and ACL tears, and is decidedly rampant throughout our breed, and as you know is very painfull and also expensive to treat? Would the relatively small increase in Mammary Tumours of which 50% are benign offset the potentiality of reducing LP and ACL tears? Interesting question is it not?


At this early age say 1yr old or so - pyrometra is very very rare, so baring other research that might come out later, we just need to look at mammary increased cancer risk, and also avoiding urinary incontenience, and temperament changes, ACL tears medial luxating patellas as possible benefits to delaying spaying for a bit in time.


The Swedish study did not offer us any elucidation because as opposed to North American studies the bulk of the participants were intact. And god only knows why they only looked at two health problems - that to me is an interesting detail...


The decision you make as a pet owner I would like to see be well informed. Folks who are dedicated enough to slog through this huge thread, and read the research, are searching for informed answers.


The more information we have, the more complex our decisions become, and they should be, when we talk about major surgery, and a major impact into a dogs life.

I don't believe for one minute that science will ever say that early s/n has an effect on yorkies with regards to torn CCLs.

For NOW it is proven that there is a risk of mammary tumors and pyometra .. and we all know that MOST pet owners are not equipped to deal with multiple unaltered pets. SO....my belief is the risk of those cancers far outweigh unknown/unproven benefits. Same for oopsie pregnancies. For the life of me, I don't understand how you can keep on saying this unless it just fits some agenda you have? It surely, in my opinion, is not what is best for the breed. In addition to horrible conditions they end up with, yorkies have been SO adversely affected by indiscriminate breeding.

You do the tubal ligation as a stopgap measure to allow the hormones to course through particularly large breed dogs, then you do a full OVE,


They are no-where near 100%. A very large percentage under that Phil. And what if the chance of hemangiosarcomas was increased 50% for this breed if you spayed? The number one leading cause of death for certain breeds??? And that chance is one in five dogs get it????


A deadly cancer as opposed to MT even if the MT's are cancerous?


For the Yorkshire Terrier much is still needed to be known.

I don't believe there is any science to the claims they are making that spaying can cause. Cancer is not increased with spaying it is actually decreased. A lot of thyroid issues are genetic not caused by spaying. Weight can be an issues with any dog fixed or not. Never heard joint issues are cause by spaying. I'm not sure there is science behind this article so I personally would not trust it to give me any information. Its also important that people looking at dog Birth Control realize this is ONLY going to help with pregnancy not mammary tumors or cancers and not with cancers of the reproductive kind of poymentra. Although Pregnancy is a big concern the health issues such as cancer and poymentra are what scare me the most and are what I don't want my dog to get or go through.

Hi, I said the chances of MT's and pyometra are NOT 100%. I can't remember who I was arguing with when I said that--I got distracted by all the talk of plantains and ceviche :D. And I agree that the issues are different for large breed dogs that have a different set of prevalent diseases. But for Yorkies, the main health concerns are mammary tumors and pyometra in unspayed dogs, and a possibility of CCL tears *if* the spaying is done before growth plates close. I remember discussing the article on CCL tears with you somewhere on Yorkietalk, and I think we concluded that for Yorkies, it's still best to spay before first heat, but not *too* early. My vet recommended 5 months for Bella, but I waited until 7 months for this very reason.

Male neutering has a completely different set of pros and cons, and the data are much more nebulous (except from a population control and behavioral standpoint).

Hypothyroidism is genetic not because of spaying. I have only heard of one time of a dog ever having issues of incontinence for early spaying and it couldn't be proven to be the cause and is pretty rare. A lot of older dogs become incontinent but that's not due to early spaying it is due to getting older. Both my Grandparents have incontinence issues neither has been spayed or neutered. The study's which hardly prove anything have been done on larger dogs and there is a huge difference between larger dogs and smaller dogs. While I agree to young could be an issue to young for me and most of the studies I have read say before 6 months is considered to young and that after that is fine. The growth plates still close even after the dog has been fixed.

I have no belief one way or the other, other than a tantalizing research paper on hormone effect on maturation of ligamentous structures. But it is possible.... More research is needed. And why not when a very expensive and debillating condition affecting over 30% of the breed might be or not be affected by delaying a bit in timing of s+n?


What am I saying is only this- to look at the research, make an informed decision. I as I have yet exhaustively said on this thread for FEMALE Yorkies the specific research is sparse but other research in the main on medium to large breed dogs - do show an increased risk of pyrometra for *unbred females* and an increase for all Mammary Tumours - of which 50% are benign. And let us not forget that even with MT cancer it does have a high cure rate. The timing of spay is what I question for females. For yorkies we don't have a suggestion towards the answer. What if I delay spaying a female by 6mths how would it negatively impact her health? How would it benefit her health?


This as far as I am aware for s+n all breeds of dogs at 6 months old whether male or female, has no hallmark scientific studies to justify
this decision.

Ok so 30% is a big deal when talking about ligament tears but not when talking about cancer, mammary tumors, or poymentra? Scratching my head on this one for sure. Whether a tumor is cancer or not it means surgery and recovery. It means pain and has risks with it. Many dogs shut down and get very depressed when recovering from surgery and it is a huge deal. Cancer would just make it an even bigger deal. I have watched several family members fight cancer most of them doing everything possible to beat it and stay alive and most of them dying from it. If I can prevent even just a 5% chance of cancer I will do it! This is not something proven but one thing I have noticed is once you get cancer even if it goes into remission it normally comes back and or spreads and it is normally what ends up killing you. I'm not willing to take that chance an put my beloved heart beat at my feet through that. Maybe it makes a difference if have watched many suffer and die from cancer and or suffered it yourself. Then you know any single thing even the tiniest thing you can do to prevent it is something you want to do.

So you believe in the studies that show the decrease of having pyometra and mammary tumors but you shrug off studies that show an increase in certain cancers and other issues due to early altering or sex organ removal in general? There was a Vizsla study done recently, I'll see if I can find a link. I'm sure it's posted in this thread though.

Any study's of just larger breed dogs are mute in my opinion.

Can you link the studies you've seen that are all or majority small breed dogs? Or point us in the direction? Thanks!

That is the issue there aren't any. And I think we can all agree large dogs develope, grow and age a lot differently then small dogs. Since there are not studies on small dogs let alone yorkies we can't say all these cons really exist when there is no proof. I researched the crud out of hypothyroidism when Callie was diagnosed and it is a genetic issue and not caused by early spay an nueter and there's not anything I could find that said otherwise. It dosent shock me it's genetic, Callie's genes suck. She came from a puppy mill and did not get lucky with healthy genes like some do.

Excuse me while I go slam my head against a wall.........

Yes I agree that that larger breeds mature differently than smaller ones. But if studies concerning larger breeds are mute iyo where are you getting your info that states pyometra and mc are affecting intact females so adversely? Those are the majority of the breeds in the study.

Yeah done with this thread. The only proof out there shows you should spay not that you shouldn't but some people will always change facts or just get sarcastic and act like they are smarter then everyone else. Whatever I'm out.

*sigh*

The Swedish insurance study on mammary tumors and pyometra that we discussed most recently analyzes many small breeds, and has good data for Yorkies in particular. And the review article that I gave a link to the PDF for earlier this afternoon has breed-specific information, including Yorkies where appropriate, in the cost/benefit analysis tables, as well as in the discussion section.

That's how my morning started :D. I hope your plantains and ceviche turned out well!