Having a hard time saying NO to a vet
 

I wanted more input from you all so I'm making a new thread on a question I asked on an another thread.

My vet INSISTS that my puppies get the rabies shot at the same time they receive their third and last puppy vaccine. They will be 18 and 19 weeks. My smallest one was 1.5lbs at almost 14 weeks. After I got home, I researched like a crazy woman and found that it is recommended to give shots AFTER 6 months of age AND to be given 2~3 weeks apart from the HA2PPV vaccine.

FIRST, I'm very angry that these vets DO NOT KNOW what they are SUPPOSE to know. What if I hadn't researched? SECOND, I'm so angry about their "I'm the doctor and I know it all" attitude. I gave her a call back and told her that I think I would like to get the rabies shot seperate from the other shots, and she laughed it off saying "Don't WORRY they will be FINE!" Just totally putting my worries off to the side. I told her I've been researching and she said "look, they were fine with the other shots and they were give shots at an early age when they weren't suppose to anyway (the breeder gave shots before 8 weeks which she disregarded) and they were okay. At worst, they will just have a little reaction to it. And it's the law in NY to give it at that age. She comes off so strong and confident that I just ended up saying ok I'll think more about it and hanging up.

What were your experiences with your vets and how did you say no? Btw- she's a friends friend and it's really a difficult situation for me to say "sorry I think you are wrong and I think I know a little better than you".

few extra questions: 1. Is it normal for puppies to be missing a thumb?? she says they were missing a thumb and that its normal that some breeders just cut them off when they are born (?!?!)
2. My 14 week boy has not yet dropped his testicles and she kept saying that it was abnormal, so I'm worried. But I also researched on this and others yorkie owners had yorkies who dropped as late as 9 months. Should I be concerned?

I tend to stick with doctors that take my thoughts and concerns seriously and actually "care" that i may be worried about MY dog. If you dont feel comfortable at that office, it may be time to find another one. The way i see it is if you're footing the bill, then your concerns should be taken seriously and not brushed off.

You have to stick to your guns and if she wont relent you have to find a new vet. My old vet that I really liked was insistent they get the rabies every year even though the state only requires it every 3 yrs. I changed vets and I told him why I was

Wow, I would never go to a vet that disregarded my concerns like that. You have a right to your dogs health decisions.

When Jackson went into to get neutered, he had not yet had his rabies vaccine. I was late on it because I was so scared to get it, since he had a reaction to the lepto shot before. So anyways, when I took him in to get neutered, they informed me he would have to have rabies vaccine to get neutered first so they were going to give him the rabies vaccine while under and I was like... no way. I'm not letting him get the shot and possibly have a reaction. The techs were the ones that told me this so I told them of my concerns and the vet agreed with me... she said especially if he had a reaction before, she wasn't going to do it. So I brought him in 2 weeks after he got neutered to get his rabies vaccine and he did fine.

Personally, I would switch vets (and I did switch vets before).

I've also questioned my vet about giving our dogs the rabies vacc. every year. In our case though, given the fact that we live out in the country and have many suspicious critters running around, he really does insist that we get it every year. I can't really argue too much with that since I did find a dead baby skunk under some bushes by the house this past weekend! None of my dogs have ever had a reaction to any vaccinations so I'll not make a big stink over it.

Great to know there are some normal vets. I'm starting to lose faith in vets because the FIRST vet in the clinic that checked my puppies because my friend's friend wasn't in that day, was so careless and coudn'te even recognize the name of vaccines given by the breeder. Second was this vet, who is my friends friend and she acts like she knows everything in the world. She looked at him thoroughly and I really liked her but she obviously does not care aobut my concerns. Third is my old vet in California who still sends me "time for an annual checkup!" mails with rabies and bordatella shots listed as needed for my 5 year old yorkie. YEA RIGHT.

Then it's time to find a vet that you can say no to...

Most to all know exactly what they are supposed to know. There are just different way so of practicing and each has their own experiences, so they do have an idea about what works and what doesn't. More people are going to post online when something goes wrong instead of when something goes right, so it does look like a lot of dogs react. Actually in practice though, there aren't that many immediate and severe reactions at all. That's not to say these vaccines should be given on the same day, but that's why it doesn't bother most vets to do it.

Ellie's vet and I respect each other because while she is an amazing doctor, I know a little bit too. :) We don't argue. We don't always agree. Bottom line is we trust each other to make the best decisions possible for Ellie and it all works out.

Not all vets can handle clients that are always questioning and researching. They don't want to deal with it. Not many vets could tolerate me for long. Find one who can deal with it... Tell them what you are coming in for. They can't vaccinate without your permission. They probably can report you if you don't do rabies in time. Time to find a vet that will let it go a couple extra months if it makes their client feel better.

Your vet works for you and your pup. Sure we want to rely on their knowledge and expertise. But we also want to weigh that against other information available. The vet is just one source of information. This is a relatively new recommendation to wait til 6 months to vaccinate our small toy breed. Most vets went to school before vaccine concerns really started getting more attention. Some take the newer recommendations seriously, and others seem to be blowing them off and still want to use the old ones. My vet wants to stick with what he knew. He is so good with other things, I don't want to change. Besides, he does what I need done.

It should not be a debate. When she says "they will be fine" you say, "Just the same, I am going to wait til they are 6 months for the rabies. Thank you." Be firm but polite. Like I told you in the other thread, my vet thinks I am overly concerned, but he does it the way I want. Well.....once he did not and went ahead and gave the rabies with the last boosters. I did not realize what happened until I was paying and the rabies was on the bill. Had them check and sure enough, they had snuck it in there on me! That did not go over well at all but the tech said the vet just forgot. How you forget something just discussed is beyond me! But, I don't think that mistake will be made again! Annie had all of her boosters and is getting her rabies by itself at 6 months.

I read in a recent article that one-year rabies vaccination and 3-year vaccination is actually the same thing. SO for a vet to recommend 1-year vaccination (when it is actual 3 years) is just a money scam.

:yeahthat:

You've gotten good answers on your main question, so I'll just address the last two.

1) It is common for the dew claws (thumbs) to be removed on newborn pups. Dew claws can easily get caught up on fabric, etc. and hurt a dog's paw, so they're removed for safety reasons.

2) 14 weeks is too early to worry about undescended testicles, IMO. They still have a few months to drop before you need to be concerned.

It's nice to see such a concerned yorkie parent - great questions! :)

Bonny

Whether your dog needs to be vaccinated yearly or every three years depends on local laws - this isn't always determined by your vet who has to abide by those laws. Also, some vaccines and their effective lives differ by manufacturer.

This is true in the case of Defensor 1 and Defensor 3. Unclear if other companies do the same... Some vets really do think that giving it yearly is more protection, and since rabies is nothing to mess around with, a certain level of fear probably motivates them.

Oh, I know.... he does use the 3 year one.... just would prefer to give it every year or 18 months or so. You really do have to consider what kind of surroundings you have. Just like most of you turn down the lepto..... that's one that is really needed where I live. Again, we've had NO reactions to vaccinations.

If I truly had a choice (and didn't live in the area that I do) I would probably not do the majority of the vaccinations that we do BUT there are no vets here that will board or take care of your dogs without the recommended vaccs.

Money isnt the only motivator with vets giving the rabies every year. It also can be because they dont think they are protected fully with the 3 yr. Thats what that vet told me. I still didnt want mine overvaccinated and also they are never around wild animals

Even after learning SO much about vaccinations on this site, I still have to consider the wild animals in our area..... which is why I feel that my vet in particular has my pups best interest in mind. We've been going to him and now also his associate for over 20 years. We've had many discussions and although I don't always fully agree with some things, we are usually able to talk it out and he will honestly listen.

Thank you for the answers. Whew- had me worried!:)

In certain areas I could see why people would give the rabies shots yearly. I hope that someday the duration of the effectiveness of rabies shot is SET and CONFIRMED so that the local laws can be changed to fit it, instead of this 1 or 3 year guessing game. People can titer for rabies but I hear that doesn't replace getting the actual shot.

"Actually in practice though, there aren't that many immediate and severe reactions at all. That's not to say these vaccines should be given on the same day, but that's why it doesn't bother most vets to do it."
I could understand this. That's why it's also hard to argue because they sound so confident, which makes me feel like I'm over reacting to possible side effects that happens so rarely. decisions, decisions!

Thank you all for great replies. Just like some of you I really like her as a vet (don't know if it's bc she was a friend's friend but was very thorough with my puppies and seemed to really genuinely care) and this is the reason why it makes it THAT MUCH HARDER to really argue my point.

I would find a vet you can be comfortable with. I have two I have one vet that i go to for nutrition information And help with weight issues(what kind of yorkie eats a cup and a half of food a day stays just under 6 pounds and has tested negative for every parasite on the planet), and one i go to for vaccines and emergencies and routine stuff (like my cats neuter).

The first vet is great with the nutrition completely supports my home-cooking and always has helpful suggestions about exercise and food schedules, but she gives to many vaccines at once and she wont do blood tests before surgery says its a waste of money.
The second vet is great with vaccines only gives one at a time to dogs with a history of reactions and only two at a time to all others, but he is always pushing this crazy food i dont like and some i have never heard of, he tells me Gatsby eats so much and is anemic because i home cook for him. so its just a matter of finding what is right for you.

My vets don't make the final decisions. I do!

My vet has always recommended the titer testing if I don't feel comfortable giving the shots that he recommends. Keep in mind though that the testing is about as costly as the actual vaccination so you may have to turn around and give the shot anyway. Since we've never had any reactions to any, I go ahead and follow *most* of my vet's recommendations.

The key here is to trust your vet. That's always very important. If you can't have an honest open conversation with them, then it's best to find one that you can.

I just got a chihuahua puppy and the breeder informed me that there is a 3 year rabies vaccination. I never knew this. She said that vets don't encourage it or let you know because its more money in their pocket if you have to bring them in every year for it.

Great advice as well. I'm angry that she's a vet and she doesn't seem to know what's the SAFEST for my puppies, but I do want to trust her that it'll be okay because she probably had her share of experiences with vaccinations too. I don't know WHAT TYPES of things I should trust her with, though. If she said "yearly rabies shots", I would definitely say no bc it's not needed. But with waitng 6 months and giving 2~3 weeks in between shots, I'm not so sure since it's a fairly new thinking. I want to trust her because she does seem to genuinely care, and if she seems to know "for sure" then maybe everyting will turn out fine?

I think what I'm trying to say is that, I definitely do not want to change vets in between puppy shots and do not want to "stand alone" in enforcing my ways. I'd like a professional that backs my belief so that I don't seem like I'm testing her knowledge and that she's there for me in case things go wrong. (instead of the I told you so's). After the vaccinations are done, I'm def changing though bc I want someone that is more up-to-date and knowlegeable with recent findings.

If she laughs about your concerns, then you probably shouldn't trust her with anything. Changing in the middle of puppy shots is not a problem. Just get a copy of the record. Sounds unprofessional for her to refuse to respect her client's wishes.

Still dont' get the whole rabies shots needed more often is some areas thing. Will have to talk to Ellie's vet about it. That's like saying where distemper is a problem do the shots yearly when they have been proven effective for longer. Rabies is a 3 year vaccine in Michigan. If a dog gets bitten by a rabid animal, they would be considered protected with the vaccine. There may be more of a chance that a dog will get bitten by a rabid animal in other areas, but they still all have to be protected. So the dogs in MI are less protected because they have less of a chance of getting bit? Doesn't make sense to me. Less protection is not okay for any animal. The company wouldn't license the shot for 3 year if they thought it didn't work because legalities would be dragged into it.

Any vet that “insists” to improperly vaccinate my pets would no longer be my vet. In the past few decades the study of vaccinology and immunology has produced important information in regards to the duration, administration, adverse reactions and the potential for long term chronic diseases concerning vaccines and our pets. Ask your vet if he/she has heard of the research regarding this info. If he has heard of this research, he cannot dismiss your questions. Unless veterinarians make an effort to get this information by reading the literature from the researchers then he/she may be lacking in the knowledge to advise you in this area of treatment.

The practice of giving multiple vaccines at one visit is problematic and unsafe for multiple reasons:

Rabies vaccinations should be delayed until at least six months of age, if possible.

Giving combo vaccines (multi-valiant, polyvalent) and/or several shots at once increases the risk of adverse reactions as well as the risk that the vaccines will interfere with each other, resulting in neutralization or negation. (American Animal Hospital Association)

Virologists recognize that a gap of at least 3-4 weeks is desirable between giving one vaccine and then a different one, because if not so spaced the immune response to the second vaccine may be inadequate and not produce sufficient specific antibodies to give immunity. This means that the multiple components in the vaccines will interfere with each other and can elicit a poor response in producing the desired antibodies for adequate protection, in other words, a good immune response

According to the Center for Veterinary Biologics stated: Between 4/2004 through 3/2007 there were 10,000 reports concerning adverse reactions to the rabies vaccine, of those, 65% where for dogs. Taking into account that there is a serious underreporting of adverse reactions, amounting to only about 1%. If 65% of the 10,000 reported cases amounted to only 1% reported then the real figure for adverse reactions would be closer to 650,000 cases!
Adverse reactions: vomiting, facial swelling, injection site swelling or lump, lethargy, urticaria, injection site pain, pruritis, injection site hair loss, diarrhea, lameness, hypersensitivity, anaphylaxis, death.


The reaction rate increased significantly as body weight decreased. That is, small dogs were at greatest risk for a reaction. Risk for dogs weighing 11 pounds or less was 4 times greater than the risk for dogs weighing 99+ pounds. Medium-sized dogs also had increased risk over larger dogs. I have always been shocked that a Chihuahua puppy and an adult Great Dane are given the same dose shot: 1 mL. They get the same volume of virus or bacteria plus the same volume of adjuvants (boosting agents like aluminum), preservatives (like mercury), antibiotics, stabilizers and foreign tissue cultures (like fetal calf serum). All these ingredients are known to cause vaccine reactions.

Number of vaccines per office visit increases the risk for reactions. The risk significantly increased as the number of vaccines given at each visit increased. In little dogs (under 10 lbs.) each dose increased risks by 27%; in dogs weighing more, each dose increased risk by 12%.


“Rabies is the vaccine most associated with adverse reactions because it’s so potent,” says renowned veterinarian Dr. Jean Dodds. “We have a lot of bad reactions, including fatal ones. They usually occur within two to three weeks after vaccination, although they can appear up to 45 days later. Because the rabies vaccine is a neurogenic protein, meaning it affects the nervous system, what you will often see is seizures or seizure-like disorders like stumbling, ataxia, dementia, and some demyelination, where the animals become wobbly and don’t have proper motor skills. You can also have an autoimmune-like destruction of tissues, skin, blood, joints, the liver or kidneys.” Dr. Dodds adds that animals already ill with immune-related diseases such as cancer can be even more negatively affected. “Often, this is the last thing that causes the animal’s demise.”


Until Dr. Dodds completes her rabies challenge studies we won’t have any “official” documentation concerning the duration of immunity from the rabies vaccine, but “unofficially” Dr. Schultz feels it’s good for at least 7 years……Untimely it is you that must decide what is best for you and your loved one.

Sample arguement (copied from another thread):

I think most give them together. Big dogs can handle it. The only vets that give them separate are the ones that know specifically about Yorkies and the effects of vaccines on small breed dogs.

This is why, as a Yorkie owner, one must educate themselves and be a proactive advocate for one's Yorkie's health.

Many times techs prep the exam room prior to your entry. They look at your chart, see this dog needs X, Y and Z. They pull them from the fridge, mix them up and put them in the room for the vet to give to the dog.

When I enter the exam room, I scan it for anything, especially vaccines. If I see vials with needles, I stop the vet before the exam and say 'What's that?'
The vet says 'Oh Just the vaccines.'
I say' Okay, we'll start there. What are they? Specifically? Let me see them. (and I read the labels) If I see something I don't understand, I ask about it then and there.
'What's this? Lepto? My dog doesn't get Lepto. Or Lymes. Or corona. No flu shot, no Giardia vac, no dental vac, no new vacs'
Vet says 'Well, we've seen 3 cases already this year.'
I say, 'And how many dogs have you seen without it this year? 10,000? 20,000? I am not risking my dog's life for those odds.'

ME: 'I want DHPP today.' And they better show me a vial that says DHPP and nothing else on it. Not
Vet: 'Oh we've run out of that, we're giving DHPPLCv instead.'
Me: 'No, you're not. I'll come back when you get the DHPP in.'

Me, again: 'What's in that 2nd vial? Rabies vac?'
Vet: 'Yes'
Me: 'NO. Not today. I'll be back in one month for the Rabies. Please remove it from this room. Thankyou.'
Vet: 'But it's already prepared.'
Me: 'I don't care. Give it to somebody else.'
Then the Vet starts the exam.

Not to be anal or anything, but many vets will try to sell vaccines. They make money on them. You must learn to say No. You need to protect your pup against this kind of unnecessary vetting.


Hope this helps...:D If not, find a new vet. Giving the vaccines 4 weeks apart allows each one to do a better job. Given together, the challenge is too much for these little dogs, they can't produce the desired protection. They still are protected, but when given separately, they develop a stronger immunity to each of the diseases that they are being vaccinated against.

Ellie May: I definitely agree with you. I think it's because nothing has been "proven" yet on how long it actually lasts that they are able to enforce the vaccinations on a yearly basis. The local laws/vets/researchers.. they need to hurry up and come to an agreement on what is a reasonable amount.

jp4m2: thanks so much for the article. You know what, I'm just going to take this and say this is what I've found online and I'll postpone the rabies shot til llater. I was actually going to "trust" her bc I didn't want to offend her in any way (again, she's a friend's friend so I feel bad) but now that I re-read the article, there's no way I'm giving the shot to my little ones.

kjc: hahaha I literally LOL-ed reading your scenarios. I wish I could be like you! I will make sure though, that she doesn't try to influence me or confuse me into getting the rabies shot. Regarding the time interval, I think their second shot was in 3 weeks, and now their 3rd shot will be in 5 weeks bc of my schedule. Am I messing it up? The vet says it's okay :confused:

oh btw, did anyone get bordatella? I know it's not recommended according to Dr. Dodds article, but I will be taking mine to puppy classes/grooming and so I decided to get it. And were we not suppose to get it at the same time as their 2nd vaccine? :confused:

It's also important to note that even if you ultimately decide to go with the 3 year plan, the pup still needs the first vaccine followed by another one a year later in order to be fully immunized.

As for wild animals, we do have a lot of those in my area, but I'm more concerned about other dog owners who aren't responsible about immunizing their pets.

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

My girls have never, and will never get the Rabies Vacc. My Vet recommended they get it, I politely declined. She never said another word about it. Fortunately, it isn't "the law" here. PHEW! But even if it were, I think that I'd take my chances.

"Rabies vaccinations should be delayed until at least six months of age, if possible."

When I took Rizzo in for his neuter my vet wanted to re-vaccinate him for rabies because he recieved the 3yr one when he was about 16 weeks old. I told her no, because I'm leaving this country next September and most likely he'll need another rabies vaccination for entry into whichever country I'm going next. She kept trying to push, saying that she doesn't think it was effective and he really needs to have it re-done, just in case he bites someone. I told her he won't bite anyone, nor is he exposed to rabies infected creatures around the house and that I won't be re-vaccinating him until I need to in order to leave.
All in all, it is your decision not your vets what happens to your pet.